CAF rolling stock confirmed for Arriva

[jamesontheroad]

I have always been intrigued by the gangway solution adopted by the Danish ABB IC3 sets, versions of which have also been exported to Begium, Spain and Israel. The entire front end of the train uses a rubber (and presumably pressurised?) diaphragm around the front fascia. The entire fascia, including driver's control panel, opens like a door when two or more units are paired together.

 

[Haydn1971]

However, I think due to PTE agreements they have to remain serving West Yorkshire until at least mid-2020 and Northern Connect standard trains have to be in place by 1st Jan 2020.

Unless of course an agreement is reached to provide a newer train with as many or more seats with better facilities ? Would WYPTE be daft enough to insist on keeping the current CAF built fleet ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unless of course an agreement is reached to provide a newer train with as many or more seats with better facilities ? Would WYPTE be daft enough to insist on keeping the current CAF built fleet ?

I think the agreement is with both SYPTE and WYPTE, after the kerfuffle to do with funding the 4th cars on the 333s.

 

[Philip]

Where do people think the DMUs will be deployed then? Can we expect CAF trains booked on some Southport to Rochdale and Manchester to Clitheroe services, even Buxton and CLC Chester services? I also feel it's only a matter of time before we see a 3rd fast train per hour along the Hope Valley (Midland) route from Sheffield, probably carrying onto Preston and Blackpool, or else combining it with the Barrow service.

 

[Haydn1971]

I didn't think Sheffield-Manchester was a Northern Connect route ? There's both TPE and EMT running "express" type services on the Hope Valley line. New DMU's on the Sheffield-Leeds service would be good and provide a quality commuter alternative to the CrossCountry express service.

 

[WatcherZero]

According to todays Times Bombardier did bid the Aventra for the electric portion of Arriva's rolling stock requirement but refused to offer anything for the diesel requirement.

 

[jon0844]

According to todays Times Bombardier did bid the Aventra for the electric portion of Arriva's rolling stock requirement but refused to offer anything for the diesel requirement.

Typical of the nasty party for not forcing Bombardier to build diesel trains made from British steel instead of cheaper foreign Steel, or perhaps aluminium. And at a low price to get us better value, whilst also paying the most money to the workers at the same time.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Where do people think the DMUs will be deployed then? Can we expect CAF trains booked on some Southport to Rochdale and Manchester to Clitheroe services, even Buxton and CLC Chester services? I also feel it's only a matter of time before we see a 3rd fast train per hour along the Hope Valley (Midland) route from Sheffield, probably carrying onto Preston and Blackpool, or else combining it with the Barrow service.

You can find out what is planned for each route here: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

The new trains are for some of the 'Northern Connect' express services such as Bradford-Nottingham, Leeds-Lincoln, Hull-Chesterfield and Leeds-Chester.

 

[47802]

According to todays Times Bombardier did bid the Aventra for the electric portion of Arriva's rolling stock requirement but refused to offer anything for the diesel requirement.

In which case Bombardier probably didn't expect to get the EMU part of the contract anyway, probably decided an Aventra DMU wasn't viable for likely number of orders and those others complaining about it probably need to move along, nothing to see here.

 

[yorksrob]

We can all enjoy the 'free market' banter, but even if we pay more to workers in Britain, that money is worth more to the British economy because it's more likely to be spent in the British economy.

That said, I'm sure that CAF will do an excellent job, given the economic status quo.

 

[TH172341]

In which case Bombardier probably didn't expect to get the EMU part of the contract anyway, probably decided an Aventra DMU wasn't viable for likely number of orders and those others complaining about it probably need to move along, nothing to see here.

Exactly - An Aventra DMU would've essentially been a 172 with a new emissions compliant engine - something that would take time to sort out and clearly Bombardier felt the development costs not worth the bidding.

Bombardier have got plenty of work for 387s, Crossrail and LO which will keep it occupied for the foreseeable future.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can see suppliers to the British Rail network no longer offering DMUs as there will only be a limited number ordered. Of course any manufacturer that is already supplying COMPLIANT DMUs elsewhere (in Europe) will be in a better position to supply DMUs to the UK. That's provided they are happy to re-design the size to fit the UK loading gauge.

So Bombardier have let CAF in because the EMU part of the order was not attractive enough to make designing DMUs worthwhile. I think Northern played it right combining the two fleets (DMU and EMU) in one bid as otherwise they might have ended up with no DMU bids !.

 

[WillPS]

I can see suppliers to the British Rail network no longer offering DMUs as there will only be a limited number ordered. Of course any manufacturer that is already supplying COMPLIANT DMUs elsewhere (in Europe) will be in a better position to supply DMUs to the UK. That's provided they are happy to re-design the size to fit the UK loading gauge.

Indeed - weren't Stadler involved in this bidding process with an articulated offering?

 

[Mikey C]

I can see suppliers to the British Rail network no longer offering DMUs as there will only be a limited number ordered. Of course any manufacturer that is already supplying COMPLIANT DMUs elsewhere (in Europe) will be in a better position to supply DMUs to the UK. That's provided they are happy to re-design the size to fit the UK loading gauge.

So Bombardier have let CAF in because the EMU part of the order was not attractive enough to make designing DMUs worthwhile. I think Northern played it right combining the two fleets (DMU and EMU) in one bid as otherwise they might have ended up with no DMU bids !.

I would have thought that winning this order with a UK compliant DMU was a nice way of effectively becoming the standard supplier for the next 10 years, in the way the Turbostar became the default DMU for most orders after Alstom's woes.

 

[47802]

I would have thought that winning this order with a UK compliant DMU was a nice way of effectively becoming the standard supplier for the next 10 years, in the way the Turbostar became the default DMU for most orders after Alstom's woes.

Possibly but the bulk orders are probably not going to be until the mid 2020's by which time your design may not be compliant in a number of respects and their may better alternatives in such Hybrids, IPMU's etc by then

 

[edwin_m]

Possibly but the bulk orders are probably not going to be until the mid 2020's by which time your design may not be compliant in a number of respects and their may better alternatives in such Hybrids, IPMU's etc by then

Those two views aren't necessarily incompatible. This is probably going to be the only big order for DMUs (as opposed to bi-modes) over the next decade and will pay for CAF to develop a design. There will probably be a few smaller orders for DMUs during this period which won't make it worth anyone else developing a design and CAF can modestly clean up as Bombardier did in the late 90s, provided they don't jack the price up too much. By the mid-2020s with electrification hopefully widespread and still expanding, any further orders for DMUs are likely to be EMUs with added diesel engines, to allow future conversion to bi-modes or EMUs.

 

[RobShipway]

Those two views aren't necessarily incompatible. This is probably going to be the only big order for DMUs (as opposed to bi-modes) over the next decade and will pay for CAF to develop a design. There will probably be a few smaller orders for DMUs during this period which won't make it worth anyone else developing a design and CAF can modestly clean up as Bombardier did in the late 90s, provided they don't jack the price up too much. By the mid-2020s with electrification hopefully widespread and still expanding, any further orders for DMUs are likely to be EMUs with added diesel engines, to allow future conversion to bi-modes or EMUs.

Given that electrification of lines is probably going to be widespread over the whole network for the next 30 - 35 years, I would suspect that Hybrid trains are the future and if CAF are sensible the DMU's will actually be DEMU's similar to the Voyagers but not as high cost for them to be converted at a later date to be either with diesel or electric power or be such that the diesel engine can be removed at a later date when the line sit is being used on have been electrified.

To me, buying a train that will likely last for 40 plus years that is diesel only is an incorrect move, but to buy a train that can be hybrid or converted later to be electrically powered is a better move where the cost of buying the trains would not be wasted.

 

[HSTEd]

The electrification programme is rather badly behind schedule though.
There is more than enough diesel work to go around - considering these units are unlikely to even see off the Pacers.

 

[Haydn1971]

The electrification programme is rather badly behind schedule though.
There is more than enough diesel work to go around - considering these units are unlikely to even see off the Pacers.

Exactly, I'm also not all that confident of a whole wired network, the Pacers will be gone in the next 5yrs, the 150/153/155 soon after, the 156/158/159's will bite the bullet by the mid 20's and probably the 16x fleet by the early 30's when the great step change of HS2 is complete - 2032 onwards I'm seeing 17x fleets being the tired hack units, 180's and 22x's retired, with just the 185's and new CAF units being all that's left of pre 2020's kit - we will need another order of DMU's for sure and probably as a regional type with end doors.

 

[NotATrainspott]

By ordering the new CAF DMUs, it seems possible that there won't be a reason to keep the 22xes once they are relieved of their long distance high speed role. Without new DMUs, it's possible that they would have needed to stick around as re-rated regional units.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Exactly, I'm also not all that confident of a whole wired network, the Pacers will be gone in the next 5yrs, the 150/153/155 soon after, the 156/158/159's will bite the bullet by the mid 20's and probably the 16x fleet by the early 30's when the great step change of HS2 is complete - 2032 onwards I'm seeing 17x fleets being the tired hack units, 180's and 22x's retired, with just the 185's and new CAF units being all that's left of pre 2020's kit - we will need another order of DMU's for sure and probably as a regional type with end doors.

The Rail Delivery Group rolling stock report is worth reading - it will give you a good idea of the need for independently powered multiple unit market.

DMUs - they're on the way out, if we're being honest. The market will move to IPEMUs - some will be IPEMUs with battery packs, allowing some work away from electrification, I tend to think some will eventually be hydrogen powered (because of the need to eliminate NOx emissions) and all will be a basic EMU design with modular power components, and the option to fit a transformer in the place of a larger battery pack or hydrogen tank, that type of thing.

In some ways, it would be nice to see the CAF diesel unit be a diesel electric unit with the same bogies and motors as the EMUs, pantograph well provided on the roof, and able to swap engine/alternator for a transformer in future, but all of that's a bit of a pipe dream.

If we had a properly planned long term electrification strategy, with approximate targeted outputs per Control Period (single track kilometres) and a rolling stock strategy which could be overlaid on top of that, the rolling stock companies would have something to work to, and could have stock planning and building accordingly.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the issue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Rail Delivery Group rolling stock report is worth reading - it will give you a good idea of the need for independently powered multiple unit market.

DMUs - they're on the way out, if we're being honest. The market will move to IPEMUs - some will be IPEMUs with battery packs, allowing some work away from electrification, I tend to think some will eventually be hydrogen powered (because of the need to eliminate NOx emissions) and all will be a basic EMU design with modular power components, and the option to fit a transformer in the place of a larger battery pack or hydrogen tank, that type of thing.

In some ways, it would be nice to see the CAF diesel unit be a diesel electric unit with the same bogies and motors as the EMUs, pantograph well provided on the roof, and able to swap engine/alternator for a transformer in future, but all of that's a bit of a pipe dream.

If we had a properly planned long term electrification strategy, with approximate targeted outputs per Control Period (single track kilometres) and a rolling stock strategy which could be overlaid on top of that, the rolling stock companies would have something to work to, and could have stock planning and building accordingly.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the issue.

As electrification creeps along, during the lifetime of these new DMUs some of them will be moved away from the routes they were designed for. I can see the CAF units being cascaded to other routes within the North as routes such as the CLC and Calder Valley get wired. The S&C being one, with the Penistone being another. Eventually even these routes will probably get wired as once we get close to 100% electrification the awkwardness of having a few isolated diesel islands will become more of a drain on resources.

 

[jayiscupid]

I have always been intrigued by the gangway solution adopted by the Danish ABB IC3 sets, versions of which have also been exported to Begium, Spain and Israel. The entire front end of the train uses a rubber (and presumably pressurised?) diaphragm around the front fascia. The entire fascia, including driver's control panel, opens like a door when two or more units are paired together.

I'm also fascinated by these too - There's a functional asthetic to them. On top of the fact they're spacious inside, well insulated and quiet. I've ridden on the Danish IC3, Swedish X31 and the Belgian AM96 and they're all well made and quiet units. Add to the fact that the DMU and EMU version can run coupled I think there's some great potential

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The new trains look like the Queensland rail emus in Brisbane

 

[Haydn1971]

The Rail Delivery Group rolling stock report is worth reading - it will give you a good idea of the need for independently powered multiple unit market.

Wasn't this the same group that were saying back in 2011 ish that we didn't need any new DMU's ?

DMUs - they're on the way out, if we're being honest. The market will move to IPEMUs - some will be IPEMUs with battery packs, allowing some work away from electrification, I tend to think some will eventually be hydrogen powered (because of the need to eliminate NOx emissions) and all will be a basic EMU design with modular power components, and the option to fit a transformer in the place of a larger battery pack or hydrogen tank, that type of thing.

Absolutely, I'm a firm believer of the bi-mode concept as a stop gap solution and we will eventually move to IPEMU's. I'd agree that Hydrogen power is my preferred method over battery charging solutions. The Hydrogen powered method used in cars has provided a much more user friendly vehicle that is simply filled the same way as a petrol/diesel model and doesn't require ridiculous recharge times many many times the length of filling with a liquid fuel, plus you don't have loads of batteries to haul around.

In some ways, it would be nice to see the CAF diesel unit be a diesel electric unit with the same bogies and motors as the EMUs, pantograph well provided on the roof, and able to swap engine/alternator for a transformer in future, but all of that's a bit of a pipe dream.

As a highway designer, future proofing is just a fantasy for me, we just can't predict the future. I like the idea of these units being upgradable, but prefer the simplistic beauty of a unit just doing what it says on the delivery note. The nature of these units being 2 & 3 car suggests that the use as doubled up units is only short term and these units will ultimately be the branch line units of choice 10-15 years from now when all the Northern Connect network is finally wired.
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Eventually even these routes will probably get wired as once we get close to 100% electrification the awkwardness of having a few isolated diesel islands will become more of a drain on resources.

I don't see 100% being economic - hence the ultimate shift to IPEMU's on probably something like 10-20% of the network 20-30 years from now.

 

[northwichcat]

Given that electrification of lines is probably going to be widespread over the whole network for the next 30 - 35 years, I would suspect that Hybrid trains are the future and if CAF are sensible the DMU's will actually be DEMU's similar to the Voyagers but not as high cost for them to be converted at a later date to be either with diesel or electric power or be such that the diesel engine can be removed at a later date when the line sit is being used on have been electrified.

The long term rolling stock strategy identified a need for new self powered trains as some lines will likely never be electrified. The suggestion was the new trains would be ordered for regional routes but would be suitable to cascade down to rural lines in the future. What CAF is going to deliver seems to meet that description with the mockups showing wide middle doors and the order being for 2 and 3 car trains which can be doubled up, opposed to longer formations.
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Typical of the nasty party for not forcing Bombardier to build diesel trains made from British steel instead of cheaper foreign Steel, or perhaps aluminium. And at a low price to get us better value, whilst also paying the most money to the workers at the same time.

There's been reports CAF have production sites with no future work and without agreeing new orders it would be a choice of mass redundancies and shutting down and selling off sites or asking the Spanish government for help. Consequently they've been able to offer reduced price trains built to a fast time scale.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wasn't this the same group that were saying back in 2011 ish that we didn't need any new DMU's ?

Short term, 2011, they thought electrification would allow enough vehicles to meet short term future demand. Longer term, they're well aware of the need for new DMU stock, replacing life expired units and providing a little extra capacity on routes.

The most recent report, from 2015, concludes around 350 to 500 independently powered vehicles would be needed in the short term, of which CAF/Arriva stock comprise 140 units, so there's between 210 and 360 units still needed in the short term.

In the long term, out to 2043, the RDG only expect between 1200 and 1400 self powered vehicles to remain in service, down from 3900 vehicles today and 3500 post Pacer withdrawal in 2019/2020, but that's on routes which have between 600 and 1000 vehicles operating today, so you can see how tricky it is going to be to balance current and future requirements.

 

[Mikey C]

With NOx being a major issue, clearly the priority must be to remove diesels from inner city stations. For example, how long can Birmingham New Street be allowed to be full of diesel smoke?
Rurally, it's far less of an issue though. The Heart of Wales line, for example, will surely never be electrified and is probably too long to be operated by IPEMUs?

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't this the same group that were saying back in 2011 ish that we didn't need any new DMU's ?

Around then they believed that no new DMUs would be needed within CP5 based on forecast needs, because the (about to be announced) electrification plans allowed for a national cascade of DMUs sufficient to maintain the necessary fleet size, but they did not say that none would ever be needed, there was a need shown for new build beyond the period.

It is the political decision to go against DfT advice and replace Northern's Pacers that accounts for most (if not all) of the DMU section of the CAF MU order.

Now that these new DMUs with a 30 year life are on the books, the question is possibly how soon will their be another order as these (and more electrification) can deal with the rundown of some of the older ex-BR DMU fleets? I suggest there could be a gap of quite a few years until the next order, it won't be a quick run on to this one.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Even if there are slightly too many DMUs ordered for future requirements, all that will happen is that older units will be able to be retired at at earlier date than they would have originally. Unlike electrics, there would be real benefits to doing this as older models will have significantly worse NOx and particulate emissions, which cause the biggest problems in built-up areas and especially in enclosed stations like New Street.