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English bus usage continues to fall (in most places)

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Tetchytyke

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Lastly, the idea that somehow this will be the land of milk and honey. Well, look at stuff like the 36 in Harrogate or even the Sapphire and Max services in the north east. Where will the innovation come from?

Much of the funding for free WiFi on buses in the north east came from the Better Bus Fund, so I'd say the innovation is actually coming from PTE and government money rather than operator initiative.

And that's working on the assumption that Sapphire and Max are actually innovative. I'm not convinced that putting some e-leather seats and Moovbox equipment in a 14 year old ex-London bus is particularly innovative, welcome though the refurbishment is, but the fact that Arriva think it is says more about them than anything else.

I think the 36- along with the X43 in Lancashire- is an extreme example because of the particular demographics of the route. You don't see the same level of investment or genuine innovation on the rest of Transdev Harrogate's routes, unless you consider trying to run Harrogate Coach Travel out of business as "innovative".

I would agree that money is the big thing for improving services, but that leads me to wonder why the operators up here are waiting for DfT and PTE money before doing fairly basic stuff like installing Moovbox on their buses. Why aren't the bus companies investing their own money in improvements? That, we're told, is why the de-regulated bus industry is much better than the regulated one, after all.

My issue at the moment is that nothing changes unless the PTE or the government pays for it, the industry provides little or no internal investment of their own, yet the PTE has no control over what the industry does. An excellent example of this was in West Yorkshire, where Metro spent a fortune on accessible bus stops- at First's insistence- only for First to change the routes a year later and leave those stops without a service. It's no wonder that some of the PTE investment records are poor (allegedly) with that level of co-operation from the bus companies.

Whether a commitment of years rather than 56 days comes about through an imposed franchise or a voluntary agreement doesn't really matter to me. Voluntary agreements can work- Oxford now has a stable network where the two big bus companies work in tandem rather than trying to run each other off the road- and I'd be very happy indeed with an Oxford style service.

What matters to me is a stable and reliable bus network. In defence of Stagecoach, we do have that with them, but Go are forever changing their routes in Gateshead and Arriva aren't a great deal better, especially on Teesside. I don't see how councils can invest when the bus companies move the goalposts so often.
 
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radamfi

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Bus company managers don't dismiss the benefits of cycling - it really doesn't appear on their radar

When the situation arises to comment on cycle infrastructure they are against it if it means fewer bus passengers. I note you don't however disagree with my integration comment.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bus company managers don't dismiss the benefits of cycling - it really doesn't appear on their radar

Dare I say that this is why those planning networks should be planning transport networks and not bus networks?

That is what we fundamentally get wrong in the UK. A city needs a transport system, not just a bus system. If you would call a typical UK mashup of unconnected routes a system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When the situation arises to comment on cycle infrastructure they are against it if it means fewer bus passengers.

And therein lies another systemic problem with the structure of transport in the UK.

The *only* failure of a city transport system is an unnecessary car journey, or by extension that someone without a car could not make their journey at all, or had to use a taxi.

If someone takes the train instead of the bus, the bus instead of the train, cycles or walks, that is a *success* by any sensible measure of a public transport system.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Much of the funding for free WiFi on buses in the north east came from the Better Bus Fund, so I'd say the innovation is actually coming from PTE and government money rather than operator initiative.

And that's working on the assumption that Sapphire and Max are actually innovative. I'm not convinced that putting some e-leather seats and Moovbox equipment in a 14 year old ex-London bus is particularly innovative, welcome though the refurbishment is, but the fact that Arriva think it is says more about them than anything else.

I think the 36- along with the X43 in Lancashire- is an extreme example because of the particular demographics of the route. You don't see the same level of investment or genuine innovation on the rest of Transdev Harrogate's routes, unless you consider trying to run Harrogate Coach Travel out of business as "innovative".

I would agree that money is the big thing for improving services, but that leads me to wonder why the operators up here are waiting for DfT and PTE money before doing fairly basic stuff like installing Moovbox on their buses. Why aren't the bus companies investing their own money in improvements? That, we're told, is why the de-regulated bus industry is much better than the regulated one, after all.

My issue at the moment is that nothing changes unless the PTE or the government pays for it, the industry provides little or no internal investment of their own, yet the PTE has no control over what the industry does. An excellent example of this was in West Yorkshire, where Metro spent a fortune on accessible bus stops- at First's insistence- only for First to change the routes a year later and leave those stops without a service. It's no wonder that some of the PTE investment records are poor (allegedly) with that level of co-operation from the bus companies.

Whether a commitment of years rather than 56 days comes about through an imposed franchise or a voluntary agreement doesn't really matter to me. Voluntary agreements can work- Oxford now has a stable network where the two big bus companies work in tandem rather than trying to run each other off the road- and I'd be very happy indeed with an Oxford style service.

What matters to me is a stable and reliable bus network. In defence of Stagecoach, we do have that with them, but Go are forever changing their routes in Gateshead and Arriva aren't a great deal better, especially on Teesside. I don't see how councils can invest when the bus companies move the goalposts so often.

Some fair points there.

I do think that perhaps the way forward is to create the Oxford style agreements and yes, legislate to replace the 56 day rule with perhaps 180 day rule.

There is a balance to be struck in terms of "fiddling" and then having a such a stable network that it fails to reflect changing requirements. Teesside was such an example - Arriva had a big change (Viva Arriva) in 2006 (?) because it was really a bit of a hangover since 1986 or at least 1995 when peace broke out; however, the tendered stuff didn't change and it really was apparent how outdated the route structure was. However, I do agree that some firms are seemingly forever tinkering and that does no good.

I also agree with your views on the Arriva Max vehicles. It does seem bizarre to spend that on a 14 year vehicle. However, most of the Sapphire vehicles have been brand new and they are a improvement on the standard vehicle (in most people's eyes).

The 36 may be demographics but hey, that's the same for all bus routes and networks. The decline in Redcar and East Cleveland may well be related to the overall decline in economic activity and depopulation, and the closure of the steel works will only exacerbate that.

I remember the 36 from my youth. It was hourly Ripon to Harrogate, half hourly to Leeds. Standard fare were vinyl seated VRs and Nationals and later some WY Olympians. It was competition (Harrogate to Ripon) that initially raised that frequency! However, it still is a remarkable transformation.

I do agree with Neil - Sapphire or Gold are not exactly revolutionary. However, they are initiatives that are driving passenger growth and that has to be a good thing. Yet, I do still agree that it is hardly now innovative; such details are now standard on First and free wifi is now almost becoming a human right! Greater innovation are things like the 36, the new RedArrow and X5 coaches, and now the new Falcon service.

Some bus companies don't help themselves. First chronically mismanaged their business and adopting a fundamentally inept business model. Arriva have flashes of inspiration. NX also treated their business as a cash cow - they've seen the folly of that. If you don't feed the cow, yields will diminish and eventually it will die!

However, I see the stupidity of some local authorities and it really does concern me. Neil rightly mentioned about reliability and journey speeds. Bus companies want that but it's not helped when the Liverpool mayor arbitrarily removes bus lanes. Cue unreliability and the need to introduce more vehicles just to maintain the network - an extra £1m that Arriva have to fund for no benefit!

I don't believe in defending the industry irrespective. They don't get it right but similarly, I don't think the solution is franchising for the reasons I've outlined. If we're not going to invest in buses (and modes other than car and train) then I do think innovative partnerships are the way forward. I'd also point out that in many cases, we have integration but we are so poor at publicising it, you could scream. To many people, PlusBus is a state secret and when buses do serve rail stations, they are relegated to some side street so not to disadvantage the taxis or drop off zones and the information provided is atrocious.
 

Bletchleyite

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I certainly agree partnerships (not just bus ones, but passenger transport ones generally, including local authorities with regard to cycling and bus lane provision) can provide the benefits I'm looking for. Indeed, I have said before, absent regulation, I would remove competition law as applied to public transport, as collusion *actually* produces beneficial networks as organisations cooperate to compete against the car.

It is worth noting that the Verkehrsverbuende of Germany, often quoted by me and radamfi, started life as cartels, not as Government regulation.

As for Sapphire etc, they are an improvement (other than seats, I don't like leather seats, but I understand that many do and I'm outvoted :) ). But I think most do realise they are just a posh bus with the same underlying issues as any other bus. Something like the X5 is a layer of quality higher - almost a rail service with rubber tyres.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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When the situation arises to comment on cycle infrastructure they are against it if it means fewer bus passengers. I note you don't however disagree with my integration comment.

Quotes to substantiate that?

I have tried to respond to every point and comment. You know my views on integration etc - I am not fundamentally against as you well know. Nor should it be a tail wagging the dog exercise to be pursued dogmatically. We could and should do it better but I don't think it is solely to be placed at the feet of bus companies
 

radamfi

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Quotes to substantiate that?

I have tried to respond to every point and comment. You know my views on integration etc - I am not fundamentally against as you well know. Nor should it be a tail wagging the dog exercise to be pursued dogmatically. We could and should do it better but I don't think it is solely to be placed at the feet of bus companies

Sorry but it was years ago so I can't remember. I have worked for a total of three and a half years at TfL's Windsor House office and one of the floors has a fairly extensive library of magazines so I used to regularly read the trade press there. That's when I saw the quotes in question.

You are actually quite open-minded when it comes to integration compared to what I read in the trade press.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Dare I say that this is why those planning networks should be planning transport networks and not bus networks?

That is what we fundamentally get wrong in the UK. A city needs a transport system, not just a bus system. If you would call a typical UK mashup of unconnected routes a system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And therein lies another systemic problem with the structure of transport in the UK.

The *only* failure of a city transport system is an unnecessary car journey, or by extension that someone without a car could not make their journey at all, or had to use a taxi.

If someone takes the train instead of the bus, the bus instead of the train, cycles or walks, that is a *success* by any sensible measure of a public transport system.

And hey, don't get me wrong. Whilst I've made a career working in transport ops with diesel in my veins, I would love to see more cycles than cars on the roads.

I used to cycle 10 miles into work a couple of times a week but have moved jobs and it's not practicable now :(

Main issues (and particularly evident when I compare it to my experiences in the Netherlands) are:

Employers - my current employer does a cycle purchase scheme yet has no shower and changing facilities
Other road users (mainly car drivers) - a reluctance to accept cyclists as legitimate road users. Cue the times when there's parked cars on one side of the road. I've had priority but because I'm on a bike, car drivers decide they will come through against me
Poor cycle infrastructure design and subsequent upkeep
Poor signage
Lack of secure bike parking - a particular issue in Bristol when I lived there

It gladdens my heart when I now go to Bristol and see the uptake in cycling but it should be so much better. Bus companies see cycling as part of the answer. Fewer cars are the target - that safeguards their reliability
 

radamfi

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Bus companies see cycling as part of the answer. Fewer cars are the target - that safeguards their reliability

If a lot of car drivers switch to cycling and few bus passengers do, there would be a net improvement for buses, but if you get serious cycle usage on the Dutch scale, you will also attract so many bus passengers that there will be so few bus passengers left that commercial operation will no longer be possible. Bus/tram/metro modal share in the Netherlands is 2% compared to 7% for buses in England.
 

MedwayValiant

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It gladdens my heart when I now go to Bristol and see the uptake in cycling but it should be so much better. Bus companies see cycling as part of the answer. Fewer cars are the target - that safeguards their reliability

Bristol is rather hilly. Doesn't that of itself mean that fewer people are ever going to cycle than in Cambridge?

The Netherlands (and also Denmark) are in the position of having a whole country which is as flat as Cambridge. Do we really need to look any further for the reason why they are much keener on cycling than (say) the Swiss or the Scottish.
 

dcsprior

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Let's draw a parallel

You own a house? You (Edwin) bought it - to be fair, it was a bit of a decent deal? It perhaps wasn't in the best of repair but you saw the potential. You have added value to it (though some people may disagree with your tastes)?

The local authority then come along and say.... You've got a three bedroom but you and your partner only use one bedroom. We have a family who need three bedrooms so....

We'll take that 3 bed house off you. You can apply to be put on a list for a one bedroom house so you'll have the chance to have a house (but no guarantees). You can retain all the furniture which you can sell (but of course, you'll have too much as its a much smaller house so a bit of a fire sale).

However, you won't get any compensation.... after all, it's for the greater good

Would you accept that?
Is a better parallel not:

You own a house which you rent out. It brings in a regular income and if you wanted you could sell it on at a good price - on of the things keeping the resale value high is the fact that whoever purchased it could then rent it out too... then the government brings in regulation around private renting that makes it a lot less lucrative - e.g. one or more of:
* maximum rents that can be charged
* very heavy taxing of buy-to-let income
* all properties for rental must be advertised via local council's housing dept (and no preventing benefit claimants from getting them)

You still own your house, but the ongoing income you can get from it is a lot less; as a result it's resale value is also lower.
 

exile

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If a lot of car drivers switch to cycling and few bus passengers do, there would be a net improvement for buses, but if you get serious cycle usage on the Dutch scale, you will also attract so many bus passengers that there will be so few bus passengers left that commercial operation will no longer be possible. Bus/tram/metro modal share in the Netherlands is 2% compared to 7% for buses in England.

It's 7.4% in the Netherlands (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/facts-fundings/statistics/doc/2015/pocketbook2015.pdf)

In fact for buses alone it's 6.6% in the Netherlands, 5.6% in the UK.
 
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radamfi

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Bristol is rather hilly. Doesn't that of itself mean that fewer people are ever going to cycle than in Cambridge?

The Netherlands (and also Denmark) are in the position of having a whole country which is as flat as Cambridge. Do we really need to look any further for the reason why they are much keener on cycling than (say) the Swiss or the Scottish.

But we now have electric bikes so hills should no longer be an issue. But for some reason there is so little awareness of the existence of electric bikes. Ironically, the Dutch buy electric bikes in huge numbers, as the flatness means that headwinds are very strong.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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But we now have electric bikes so hills should no longer be an issue. But for some reason there is so little awareness of the existence of electric bikes. Ironically, the Dutch buy electric bikes in huge numbers, as the flatness means that headwinds are very strong.

isn't there a legal problem with electric bikes in that the DfT regards them as motorised transport... therefore requiring a licence and insurance? in the same way that "hoverboards" have been recently judged?
 

radamfi

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It's 7.4% in the Netherlands (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/facts-fundings/statistics/doc/2015/pocketbook2015.pdf)

In fact for buses alone it's 6.6% in the Netherlands, 5.6% in the UK.

That source is in % of passenger kilometres, whereas mine is in % of trips. Also, cycling and walking are excluded from that table.

My source for NL is this:

http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/repository/bestanden/CyclingintheNetherlands2009.pdf

(actually 2% for up to 7.5 km and 3% overall)

Admittedly a few years out of date now.

For England:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/457752/nts2014-01.pdf

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
isn't there a legal problem with electric bikes in that the DfT regards them as motorised transport... therefore requiring a licence and insurance? in the same way that "hoverboards" have been recently judged?

No licence or insurance required as long as you stick within the following rules:

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

the bike must have pedals that can be used to propel it
the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 250 watts
 
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ChathillMan

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Yes, I think the Quality Contract assessment panel were biased against the idea of Quality Contracts, if not Nexus themselves. Nexus were ripped to shreds- they were basically told they can't contract buses because they don't currently run buses- whilst NEBOA's assertions were all seemingly taken at face value DESPITE the fact that the panel actually acknowledged NEBOA were being disingenuous. The panel decided a voluntary partnership would be OK despite NEBOA only offering this in the hearing rather than, say, eighteen months previously.

I think the introduction of the SmartZone ticketing by council area- despite the fact most travel is across council boundaries- shows just how disingenuous NEBOA were being with their promises. The tickets are basically useless, as well NEBOA know. I can't think of a single Stagecoach route you can ride end to end in one council area. It's as though they've deliberately done the most useless thing they could whilst still fitting in with the promises they made.

I don't think the Nexus proposals were the way forward, I think a genuine voluntary partnership is the way forward. Sadly NEBOA are acting like petulant schoolchildren, so chances of that happening are nil.

As for the panel, I think they were biased, and the result is that they've set the burden so high that no PTE could ever impose a quality contract. The bus operators must be gutted.
To be fair i am tempted by the newcastle smartzone ticket

An SQP is the way forward imo
 
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edwin_m

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Another example of constraining a business - London minicabs used to be completely unregulated until they were taken on by TfL, and no doubt are now subject to more bureaucracy and cost to carry on their businesses. Did they have grounds to sue and did any of them do so?
 

Busaholic

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Another example of constraining a business - London minicabs used to be completely unregulated until they were taken on by TfL, and no doubt are now subject to more bureaucracy and cost to carry on their businesses. Did they have grounds to sue and did any of them do so?

Did you ever live in London and have to use one of these firms? In black-cabfree South London, which it was then, especially in the evening, you would regularly get an untaxed, therefore uninsured car whose seat belts didn't work being driven by someone who hadn't heard of Streatham let alone ever been there, as it's a separate country from Tooting, and might stop smoking the weed for long enough to change gear. I exaggerate, but not by that much. These firms are much better now, although fares can be a lottery.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Strangely, it's the black cabs that are often disreputable outside London, and the minicabs which can be trusted. Certainly true in MK.

Lol having lived in MK I would dispute that... I remember one hair-raising journey when I asked for the point and the driver spread his street atlas out on the steering wheel and looked it up... whilst travelling at 60mph on the dual carriageway. Naturally I insisted he pull over straight away and got out (refusing to pay of course)... when I complained to the company the response I got was "our driver's wouldn't do that" no apology no promise to investigate... just a very strong insinuation that I was lying through my back teeth... I haven't used a pvt hire car since.

and then of course there's Raffles.... who take on work even when they've got an hours wait for "straight away"
 

Bletchleyite

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Have you ever tried to use a black cab in MK at night? If so, failing to use the meter etc is rife.

I used to use Raffles all the time and have never had them say that, if they meant an hour they always said an hour. Though I mostly now use Speedline because of card payment via the app.
 

edwin_m

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Did you ever live in London and have to use one of these firms? In black-cabfree South London, which it was then, especially in the evening, you would regularly get an untaxed, therefore uninsured car whose seat belts didn't work being driven by someone who hadn't heard of Streatham let alone ever been there, as it's a separate country from Tooting, and might stop smoking the weed for long enough to change gear. I exaggerate, but not by that much. These firms are much better now, although fares can be a lottery.

I'm not questioning the merits of the decision to regulate, merely querying whether this was challengeable or challenged in law, as one poster is suggesting might be the case for bus franchising. Both would appear to be restrictions on the freedom of the operators in question to do what they previously could.
 

nerd

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I'm not questioning the merits of the decision to regulate, merely querying whether this was challengeable or challenged in law, as one poster is suggesting might be the case for bus franchising. Both would appear to be restrictions on the freedom of the operators in question to do what they previously could.

Some 97% of bus operations in England are monopolies; and it is well established that public regulation to control monopoly profits does not generally create a case for compensation. No doubt the bus providers will seek to establish that the commercial value of their franchises are due to normal commercial revenue, not monopoly profit. But it will be a difficult case to make.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Another example of constraining a business - London minicabs used to be completely unregulated until they were taken on by TfL, and no doubt are now subject to more bureaucracy and cost to carry on their businesses. Did they have grounds to sue and did any of them do so?

There is a difference in bringing in legislation that impacts on a businesses cost base. Whether that is a change in taxation to private landlords, or the introduction of a living wage, or the removal of zero hours contracts. The bus industry has already done this with WTD legislation

What franchising does is essentially remove the value of a business. In short, you could have a business like the Delaine. Their routes form part of a franchise package. Stagecoach put in a strong bid and win those routes.

Aside from a bit of private hire (a small part of the Delaine's business) and some schools, you will have essentially removed their business. They can liquidate some assets like selling the depot and the vehicles though as it will be a fire sale, they won't be able to realise the true value. That seem fair?

Of course, you could move (as per London) to leasing vehicles that would offset part of that. However, leasing as opposed to buying increases the cost so reducing the ability to fund other bus services so that undermines part of the whole reason for doing it.
 

radamfi

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The Delaine has always been private. They were operating before 1986 and operated as a monopoly under the prevailing rules that existed then. If anything, deregulation has exposed them to the possibility of another company running them off the road. If that happened, you could argue that they should sue as they would still have had a business if the government didn't change the law to enable that to happen.
 

nerd

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There is a difference in bringing in legislation that impacts on a businesses cost base. Whether that is a change in taxation to private landlords, or the introduction of a living wage, or the removal of zero hours contracts. The bus industry has already done this with WTD legislation

What franchising does is essentially remove the value of a business. In short, you could have a business like the Delaine. Their routes form part of a franchise package. Stagecoach put in a strong bid and win those routes.

Aside from a bit of private hire (a small part of the Delaine's business) and some schools, you will have essentially removed their business. They can liquidate some assets like selling the depot and the vehicles though as it will be a fire sale, they won't be able to realise the true value. That seem fair?

Of course, you could move (as per London) to leasing vehicles that would offset part of that. However, leasing as opposed to buying increases the cost so reducing the ability to fund other bus services so that undermines part of the whole reason for doing it.

Indeed, but that is a normal business risk - and has been very much the experience of small contractors across local government. As the packages of business put out to tender increase, so a few big conglomerates have tended to hoover them up. Which drives the niche supplier to the wall; but does not create a case for compensation.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Indeed, but that is a normal business risk - and has been very much the experience of small contractors across local government. As the packages of business put out to tender increase, so a few big conglomerates have tended to hoover them up. Which drives the niche supplier to the wall; but does not create a case for compensation.

And that is a normal business risk if that is the environment that you're working in (e.g. London contracts etc). To make a fundamental change that can effectively remove your business model without compensation doesn't seem to be fair. It is completely different from introducing legislation like WTD that results in an on-cost to operation.

I'm not convinced about the economics of it either. The Nexus proposals only served to highlight the issues (and that without the omissions that were made).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Delaine has always been private. They were operating before 1986 and operated as a monopoly under the prevailing rules that existed then. If anything, deregulation has exposed them to the possibility of another company running them off the road. If that happened, you could argue that they should sue as they would still have had a business if the government didn't change the law to enable that to happen.

A fair point.
 

edwin_m

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I'd say the distinction was specious. A bus company can still continue in business under a franchise system - it just has to win some franchises and probably run them at a lower profit margin than under the present system. This is no different in principle to having to face extra cost due to government action.

To use one of my earlier examples, if Rustbucket Cabbies wanted to continue in business when private hire regulation came it, they would have to bring their vehicles up to standard, CRB check their drivers and whatever else TfL might require. If they didn't do so they had the option of liquidating the business. The option of running a substandard minicab service in London just doesn't exist any more, just as the option of running a deregulated bus service wouldn't exist if all services were franchised.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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All - don't think me rude but I'm going to leave this particular thread now. I have enjoyed the discussion but I'm beginning to repeat some points a bit. Also, we have sort of drifted away from the original point.

I do think there are a lot of practical measures that could or should be implemented even within the current environment. Not everything from the continent is great but neither should it be dismissed and there is some best practice that we could and should adopt. Also, whilst the bus industry has some high points and also some woeful businesses, the ills can't be just laid at their door. Central and local government are as culpable whether it's the ENCTS mess or even Northampton bus station!

We should do better and I do think partnership is the way forward - all parties must do their share to improve patronage (and other modes) and reduce car use
 
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