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English bus usage continues to fall (in most places)

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nerd

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Much of the funding for free WiFi on buses in the north east came from the Better Bus Fund, so I'd say the innovation is actually coming from PTE and government money rather than operator initiative.

And that's working on the assumption that Sapphire and Max are actually innovative. I'm not convinced that putting some e-leather seats and Moovbox equipment in a 14 year old ex-London bus is particularly innovative, welcome though the refurbishment is, but the fact that Arriva think it is says more about them than anything else.

I think the 36- along with the X43 in Lancashire- is an extreme example because of the particular demographics of the route. You don't see the same level of investment or genuine innovation on the rest of Transdev Harrogate's routes, unless you consider trying to run Harrogate Coach Travel out of business as "innovative".

I would agree that money is the big thing for improving services, but that leads me to wonder why the operators up here are waiting for DfT and PTE money before doing fairly basic stuff like installing Moovbox on their buses. Why aren't the bus companies investing their own money in improvements? That, we're told, is why the de-regulated bus industry is much better than the regulated one, after all.

My issue at the moment is that nothing changes unless the PTE or the government pays for it, the industry provides little or no internal investment of their own, yet the PTE has no control over what the industry does. An excellent example of this was in West Yorkshire, where Metro spent a fortune on accessible bus stops- at First's insistence- only for First to change the routes a year later and leave those stops without a service. It's no wonder that some of the PTE investment records are poor (allegedly) with that level of co-operation from the bus companies.

Whether a commitment of years rather than 56 days comes about through an imposed franchise or a voluntary agreement doesn't really matter to me. Voluntary agreements can work- Oxford now has a stable network where the two big bus companies work in tandem rather than trying to run each other off the road- and I'd be very happy indeed with an Oxford style service.

What matters to me is a stable and reliable bus network. In defence of Stagecoach, we do have that with them, but Go are forever changing their routes in Gateshead and Arriva aren't a great deal better, especially on Teesside. I don't see how councils can invest when the bus companies move the goalposts so often.

I think you are putting your finger on the issue here AT.

There is an acknowledgement on all sides; that any major expansion in bus services outside London will require substantial investment - both by public agencies, and by the bus operators. But the bus operators in the current dergulated environment do not have the incentive to undertake investment on this scale; as it requries them to abandon the standard business model that they have developed over the past 30 years in order to protect their markets and maximise their profit.

the point was made in the report that Steer Davies Gleave prepared 18 months ago for HS2 Ltd, and the DfT.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...and_opportunities_in_the_North_of_England.pdf

Bus

In 2012/13, 725 million journeys were made by bus in the North’s five metropolitan areas. Bus
patronage, however, has been in long-term decline. This trend pre-dates deregulation in
1986.

The reasons for this long-term decline are a combination of inter-related factors. These
include socio-economic changes in the population, changes in the patterns of activity and the
relative attractiveness of the bus offer vis-à-vis alternatives, particularly the private car.

Bus serves a vital social function catering for those with lower incomes, students and in
particular those who do not have access to a car. However, amongst non-users bus is seen as a
mode of last resort. According to DfT research, 66% of non-users (and 50% of bus users)
agreed that they would only travel by bus if there was ‘no other way of getting there’. Bus
services are seen by non-users as slow, unpunctual, unreliable and of low quality.

It is widely accepted by stakeholders across the North that to support growth in bus demand
there needs to be investment to support reduced bus journey times, improved reliability and
punctuality, as well as enhancements to the quality of the bus offer. To be most effective,
investment by local authorities and bus operators needs to be planned and coordinated. This
requires the public and private sectors to work together.

Overall, there appears to be a gap between the need and ambitions to grow bus use to
support sustainable economic growth and local authorities’ ability to implement change and
secure the service enhancements that are required. For bus to play its full potential role in
supporting economic growth, this public policy gap needs to be addressed.

The context here is that the attractiveness of private car transport, for business and commuter use, is rapidly shrinking; but that the private car still remains far the predominant commuter mode. So a substantial proportion - variously estimated, but likely between 15% and 25% of current car commuters - would be keen to stop doing so if they could. This proportion of 'reluctant drivers' is highly variable though, younger commuters are less likely to prefer private car travel than older commuters; more affluent commuters are less likely to prefer private cars than less affluent commuters; and employers/entrepeneurs are much less likely to drive themselves about than are low-ranking employees. And on top of all this, there is a geographical pattern; obviously car commuting is very rare now in central London, but it is also shrinking across the whole of the south of England, while in the North (outside the big cities) car commuting often remains the social norm. But long-term, the factors that are leading to shrinking commuter car use are all growing; hence the proportion of reluctant drivers may be everywhere expected to increase.

So car commuting long term may be expected to decline, and any reasonable alternative may be expected to show rapid increase. But the problem here is that the groups that are most likely to want to switch out of car commuting are generally those least likely to regard bus travel (as currently provided) as an alternative.

Which creates a real dilemma in public policy. Spatial planning policies and market pressures have long favoured low-density, dispersed, out-of-town patterns of employment, economic activity, retail, recreation and residential location; so restoring or reproviding transport access networks for trains, light rail, or cycleways (the modes favoured by reluctant drivers) can be involve high cost for limited scale of delivery. To yield real scale improvments in transport provision in line with public aspirations, public agencies really need to prioritise some form of enhanced bus offer. But the existing bus offers are almost all unfit for this purpose.

This is not news to commercial bus operators; who have long sought to create forms of 'premium' bus services - Sapphire, Max, Gold - tailored to an aspirational bus travel market. But the problem is that they are mostly investing in the wrong things - leather seats, charging points, WiFI, exterior rebranding. But aspirational users are not chiefly motivated by these (although some degree of distinct branding does seem to help).

The factors that most strongly motivate aspirational public transport users are different;

- smart, through, ticketing - knowing that your ticket/card will always default to the best value offer available for each sequence of trips across any day,

- inter-operator ticketing - knowing that once you have bought a ticket, you can always take the first service that comes along, without penalty,

- zonal pricing and multimodal provsion - knowing that your fare will be the same between any two zones irrespective of which public transport mode you use to get there; but also providing facilities for switch-mode trips (park-and-ride, cycle-and-bus),

- clock-face timetabling with reliable punctuality; ideally with no reduction in reliability for travel at peak periods.

- faster travel, bypassing queues of general traffic at congestion points.

- central business district penetration,

- high frequency service throughout the day; not just at peak periods,

- late evening running,

- on-line and TVM pre-paid ticketing; without on-board payment or other interruption to boarding or alighting times,

- high value and reliable PIDs at all stops,

- llimited stopping,

- adequate seats; for all but very short trips (<2 km),

- adequate standing for short trips; with grab-poles,


Which geneates three particular sets of problems:

- the service preferences of aspirational bus users cut across the business models of most commercial operators - as they prevent use of sole-provider season tickets to protect market share; and stop competition on price. If commercial operators are to participate in the scale of investment required, they have to be convinced that they will gain more benefit from growing passenger demand, than they will lose through not protecting their monopoly market positions.

- equally, the service preferences of aspirational bus users cut across the preferences of existing bus users; who generally value frequent stops, cheap fare offers, and on-board payment; and are less bothered by timetabling reliability or service speed.

- and trickiest of all perhaps, these aspirations cut across the expectations of those who remain tied to their cars, that their particular road use should enjoy priority access to the limited stock of road space. In the future, anyone under 50 who still drives to work may be seen as 'a failure in life'; but they won't thank you for rubbing their noses in the fact.
 
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overthewater

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I thought I would put this here since it really only effect England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35489514

Many rural bus services in England and Wales face being wiped out by council budget cuts, campaigners have warned.
Research by the Campaign for Better Transport says subsidies to routes have been reduced by £78m since 2010, with another £27m under threat this year.
It likens the situation to the cuts to about a third of the rail network made on the back of a report by Dr Beeching in the 1960s.
Councils say "difficult decisions" are being made amid government cuts.
The Campaign for Better Transport says reductions in local authority funding had already resulted in thousands of bus services being reduced or cancelled in recent years.
According to its research, people in Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Somerset, Dorset, West Berkshire, Wiltshire, Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire, North Yorkshire and Lancashire will be among the worst affected.
Oxfordshire County Council says it is looking to save nearly £4m by cutting subsidies to more than 100 routes. It told the BBC it had been left with no choice but to include buses in the services it was cutting, because of an overall reduction in government funding to councils.
Buses Bill
Martin Abrams, from the Campaign for Better Transport, said: "Up and down the country utterly devastating cuts are now being inflicted on our vital bus services on a par with the swingeing and misguided cuts the government and Dr Beeching made to our rail network which decimated services back in the 1960s."
Buses are overseen by the Department for Transport in England and the Welsh Assembly in Wales, but decisions on funding for services are made by local authorities.
Transport minister Andrew Jones said: "The government protected around £250m of funding for bus services in England, provided through the Bus Service Operators Grant, as part of last year's spending review."
He said ministers had also provided £7.6m in support for 37 local transport schemes in rural areas, while more than 300 charities and community groups across England would benefit from new minibuses through a £25m fund.
He added: "We are also developing measures in the upcoming Buses Bill so local authorities can deliver improved bus services."
The Welsh government, meanwhile, said last month it was committed to improving the quality and accessibility of local bus services.
Labour's shadow transport minister Daniel Zeichner said: "David Cameron promised to keep the free bus pass but he cut the buses instead. Labour would make sure that local communities have the power to make bus operators provide the services local people need."
Peter Box, the Local Government Association's transport spokesman, called for the concessionary fares under which councils provide free off-peak travel for elderly and disabled residents to be fully funded by the government.
He added: "Councils know how important buses are for their communities and local economies and are desperate to protect them. Instead, many across the country are reluctantly taking difficult decisions to scale back services and review subsidised routes as a result."
 

miami

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"It likens the situation to the cuts to about a third of the rail network made on the back of a report by Dr Beeching in the 1960s."

Well they would. Except there is a key difference that railways were torn up and land sold. Even if land was kept the rail became unusable. Bus services that vanish tomorrow can be reinstated in 5 years time with the stroke of a pen - nobody is suggesting ripping up the roads.
 

radamfi

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"It likens the situation to the cuts to about a third of the rail network made on the back of a report by Dr Beeching in the 1960s."

Well they would. Except there is a key difference that railways were torn up and land sold. Even if land was kept the rail became unusable. Bus services that vanish tomorrow can be reinstated in 5 years time with the stroke of a pen - nobody is suggesting ripping up the roads.

On another forum I visit, one prominent member has stated that when rural/inter-urban bus services get withdrawn, they will never come back. I'm not so 100% sure but it is probably a safe bet. Probably autonomous vehicles will be the answer to transport in such areas. Demand responsive transport (DRT) was supposed to be the solution, but it appears to have died a death with some exceptions. However, Greater Manchester seems to be sold on it (albeit, of course, an urban area), where a lot of tendered services have been withdrawn in favour of DRT.

In terms of this thread's title, though, rural bus service losses, whilst they of course lead to hardship to some people, there is relatively little impact on total bus patronage as usage is already low. Also, rural bus services generally don't have much scope to cut road traffic, given their low frequency is unattractive to car users. To seriously improve patronage, the urban areas need to be focus.
 
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Deerfold

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On another forum I visit, one prominent member has stated that when rural/inter-urban bus services get withdrawn, they will never come back. I'm not so 100% sure but it is probably a safe bet. Probably autonomous vehicles will be the answer to transport in such areas. Demand responsive transport (DRT) was supposed to be the solution, but it appears to have died a death with some exceptions. However, Greater Manchester seems to be sold on it (albeit, of course, an urban area), where a lot of tendered services have been withdrawn in favour of DRT.

In terms of this thread's title, though, rural bus service losses, whilst they of course lead to hardship to some people, there is relatively little impact on total bus patronage as usage is already low. Also, rural bus services generally don't have much scope to cut road traffic, given their low frequency is unattractive to car users. To seriously improve patronage, the urban areas need to be focus.

The village I grew up in had a decent bus service for a rural village - 3 buses an hour into town along the main road, down to 1bp2h along out of the way roads.

Loadings were very healthy until 2001 when I moved away. Unfortunately in the early 2000s reliability was dire with many buses missing and those that ran being in a very poor physical state.

There are now 2 buses an hour along the main road, with the 3 main rural routes now having an hourly service. But loadings are generally poor and these frequencies are at risk.

Presumably people got tired of the buses, got cars and never came back. That doesn't mean they never will, but they haven't despite several years of reasonable running.
 

Greybeard33

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To yield real scale improvements in transport provision in line with public aspirations, public agencies really need to prioritise some form of enhanced bus offer. But the existing bus offers are almost all unfit for this purpose.

This is not news to commercial bus operators; who have long sought to create forms of 'premium' bus services - Sapphire, Max, Gold - tailored to an aspirational bus travel market. But the problem is that they are mostly investing in the wrong things - leather seats, charging points, WiFI, exterior rebranding. But aspirational users are not chiefly motivated by these (although some degree of distinct branding does seem to help).
Yesterday afternoon I made a return trip between Altrincham and Wilmslow, both large and affluent regional towns, on the GHA Gold 88. It was a disappointing experience, considering the fanfare with which this "premium" service was launched only 15 months ago, to general acclaim from local councillors, transport groups and the press. New Enviro 200 vehicles were equipped with leather seats, WiFi and even a table, the frequency was improved to half-hourly all day, and the route was extended to serve Wilmslow railway station as well as Altrincham Interchange.

Yesterday the Enviro 200s were clean and the leather seats were in good condition, but the interior was very rattly on bumps in both vehicles. The level of transmission noise and engine vibration was unpleasant, especially in the rear around the table seats. The forward facing CCTV displays were marred by interference, tolerable in one vehicle but severe in the other. The PIS screens were blank.

Outside the TfGM boundary, there was only one other passenger on each of the services I used. Even though this "premium" service was targeted mainly at commuters, I think GHA must have hoped for better off-peak patronage. The 88 provides a direct service between town centres and is free for ENCTS pass holders. The rail alternative, changing at Stockport, is slower, less frequent, uses 30-year old DMUs and does not offer WiFi. Car parking can be difficult/expensive in both Altrincham and Wilmslow town centres.
 

Busaholic

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Yesterday afternoon I made a return trip between Altrincham and Wilmslow, both large and affluent regional towns, on the GHA Gold 88. It was a disappointing experience, considering the fanfare with which this "premium" service was launched only 15 months ago, to general acclaim from local councillors, transport groups and the press. New Enviro 200 vehicles were equipped with leather seats, WiFi and even a table, the frequency was improved to half-hourly all day, and the route was extended to serve Wilmslow railway station as well as Altrincham Interchange.

Yesterday the Enviro 200s were clean and the leather seats were in good condition, but the interior was very rattly on bumps in both vehicles. The level of transmission noise and engine vibration was unpleasant, especially in the rear around the table seats. The forward facing CCTV displays were marred by interference, tolerable in one vehicle but severe in the other. The PIS screens were blank.

Outside the TfGM boundary, there was only one other passenger on each of the services I used. Even though this "premium" service was targeted mainly at commuters, I think GHA must have hoped for better off-peak patronage. The 88 provides a direct service between town centres and is free for ENCTS pass holders. The rail alternative, changing at Stockport, is slower, less frequent, uses 30-year old DMUs and does not offer WiFi. Car parking can be difficult/expensive in both Altrincham and Wilmslow town centres.

There is a huge problem with rattling/vibration on most modern buses which may go generally unnoticed, or at least tolerated, in the enthusiast community but will not draw somebody with a choice of transport mode to convert. The problem is not just in diesel-engined vehicles either. The industry really needs to get a grip on this - I don't believe it's insoluble, even when trying to keep weights down.
 

yorksrob

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I unfortunately missed my train and ended up having to use this dreadfull, sub-standard form of so-called transport.

Had to wait for ages and ended up standing on what was closer in size to a badly built Tonka toy.

I think I shall spend an hour in the pub instead next time. (I was actually late for my train due to another damned bus).
 

Bletchleyite

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There is a huge problem with rattling/vibration on most modern buses which may go generally unnoticed, or at least tolerated, in the enthusiast community but will not draw somebody with a choice of transport mode to convert. The problem is not just in diesel-engined vehicles either. The industry really needs to get a grip on this - I don't believe it's insoluble, even when trying to keep weights down.

The problem seems to be at least in part because the low floor doesn't leave space for a traditional heavy chassis, while single-glazed windows (which reduce weight and cost over double glazing) are not structurally strong enough to avoid body distortion.

In order to reduce body flexibility, has anyone ever considered building a bus like this:

VT650_'Regio-Shuttle_in_Pritzwalk.jpg


(Stadler RegioShuttle with a curious diagonal structure)

More info:
http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/STA-1223-037_RS1-EB_E_web.pdf

?
 
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Via Bank

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The problem is that people don't give tuppence about leather seats and wifi if they still need to carry cash, if they don't know where they need to ring the bell to get out, if they won't be able to get home late at night, and if they don't know if/when the bus will turn up in the first place.

The old saying about polishing a turd comes to mind with regards to rattly "premium" buses.
 

Busaholic

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The problem is that people don't give tuppence about leather seats and wifi if they still need to carry cash, if they don't know where they need to ring the bell to get out, if they won't be able to get home late at night, and if they don't know if/when the bus will turn up in the first place.

The old saying about polishing a turd comes to mind with regards to rattly "premium" buses.

Well, carrying cash won't get you very far in London, but I take your general points. Personally I think way too much emphasis was placed on low-floor: certainly in London with its dual=door buses there are not nearly enough seats on the lower deck for the elderly and/or mildly disabled and,in order to reach most of them, you have to climb a step anyway. Does every bus need to have wheelchair access? It became a bit of an obsession, especially in London when Routemasters were still operating.
 

Robertj21a

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Does every bus need to have wheelchair access? It became a bit of an obsession, especially in London when Routemasters were still operating.

Yes.

The whole point with the changes in the law was to make public transport available to all, not just the able bodied.
 

edwin_m

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Having done a few bus journeys in central London recently I'm starting to come to the conclusion that they are wasting their money providing so many buses. Even at peak times most of them have plenty of seats available, and the traffic in some places makes it it probably quicker to walk on some sections. Fewer buses might even reduce congestion and attract more passengers.

If you are (as I was yesterday) finishing a meeting at London Bridge with 70min to kill before your train from St Pancras, then a gentle bus journey where you have plenty of empty seats, a view from the window and phone coverage is a lot more pleasant than the Northern Line. But keep an eye on your watch - after waiting 10min at the stop while three of each of the other routes went by, then taking nearly 30min to get to City Thameslink, I ended up bailing out there as I would probably have missed the train otherwise.
 

jon0844

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More bus cuts coming this spring.

By me, in Hertfordshire, services are going to be further slashed this spring.

My own bus route loses one of its two buses in the week (possibly going from 3bph to 1bph) and no service at all on Sunday anymore.

More evening bus cuts, and services to/from the business park near my home are being decimated. Herts County Council claims usage is low, but in the peaks the usage is high - but it's a captive market. Thus you can reduce the buses and people will have to just wait longer.

Or maybe they won't, and they'll walk, cycle or drive.. in which case eventually all services will go.

It's sad but not surprising. Uno, which is making the most cuts (and having yet more staff leave) is apparently seeking to use its buses to start new routes to more profitable areas, like St Albans, Watford, Luton and into north London.

One would almost wonder if it forgot about its origins as a bus company serving the university and also the local community. Soon students in Hatfield will have far fewer buses to choose from.
 

Via Bank

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Well, carrying cash won't get you very far in London, but I take your general points. Personally I think way too much emphasis was placed on low-floor: certainly in London with its dual=door buses there are not nearly enough seats on the lower deck for the elderly and/or mildly disabled and,in order to reach most of them, you have to climb a step anyway. Does every bus need to have wheelchair access? It became a bit of an obsession, especially in London when Routemasters were still operating.

I disagree strongly. In fact, I think the fact that many buses outside London continue to be operated by non-step free vehicles puts people off using the buses - for instance, as a mother of a young child, why would you travel by bus if you have to go through the rigmarole of folding your buggy, when you could fold the buggy and then travel in your own car instead?

Ultimately it comes down to quality. For all its faults, the TfL bus service is of good quality, easy to use, well advertised, and provides a service throughout the day and into the night. While patronage has fallen slightly recently, this can probably be put down to the sudden flurry of roadworks connected with Cycle Superhighway upgrades.

Meanwhile, in the provinces, a route that goes past my old gaff in Surrey towards Woking is currently having its journeys before 0930, and after 1430, withdrawn due to extremely low usage. The last bus, previously, by the way, was at around 1630.

And they wonder why the usage was so extremely low… hmm, I wonder...
 

bb21

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The problem is that people don't give tuppence about leather seats and wifi if they still need to carry cash, if they don't know where they need to ring the bell to get out, if they won't be able to get home late at night, and if they don't know if/when the bus will turn up in the first place.

The old saying about polishing a turd comes to mind with regards to rattly "premium" buses.

I doubt the cash thing is such a big deal in the provinces. It may slow boarding down compared to London, but unless you have a flat-fare structure, it will still likely be a faff.

The other points I generally agree with, but unfortunately patronage in many areas will simply unlikely be sufficient at unsociable hours to sustain a profitable bus service. We at the provinces are pretty well adapted to using taxis late at night.

That said, there is no reason why information provision cannot be better, in terms of being clear where the bus serves, where the stops are located, what the fares are, and, in urban areas at least, investment in real-time technology which can boost public confidence in the reliability of services.
 

miami

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I open up Uber, and I see the location of every minicab in the area.

Why can't a similar system be available on buses. No need for expensive next bus displays at every stop, but there's no excuse not to plug a £200 phone into the bus updating it's position every 10 seconds (OK sometimes it will be out of range, but most of the time it would be in range)

Display that information on a website, it's not rocket science.
 

radamfi

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I doubt the cash thing is such a big deal in the provinces. It may slow boarding down compared to London, but unless you have a flat-fare structure, it will still likely be a faff.

I think we've had this discussion before, but the traditional British stage-based system isn't compulsory and likely hinders patronage. The stupid thing is that many places have simplified their fare structure so that there are only a few fares left so it would be a small step to go to a zonal fare system. But even if you maintain the existing fare system you can use touch in touch out and Trent Barton have been using this for years.
 

bb21

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I think we've had this discussion before, but the traditional British stage-based system isn't compulsory and likely hinders patronage. The stupid thing is that many places have simplified their fare structure so that there are only a few fares left so it would be a small step to go to a zonal fare system. But even if you maintain the existing fare system you can use touch in touch out and Trent Barton have been using this for years.

Yes, we have been through all that before so I have no desire to revisit the whole rigmarole again.
 

jon0844

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I open up Uber, and I see the location of every minicab in the area.

Why can't a similar system be available on buses. No need for expensive next bus displays at every stop, but there's no excuse not to plug a £200 phone into the bus updating it's position every 10 seconds (OK sometimes it will be out of range, but most of the time it would be in range)

Display that information on a website, it's not rocket science.

As said, Arriva's app can do this. But Arriva seems unable to sell single tickets, just day passes, in Hertfordshire which means I still need to use cash - and get told off if I don't have the right amount because their machines don't (or didn't last time I checked) issue change vouchers.

Herts County Council has a real time system that is non-standard, so no data is fed to the likes of Google or the many other transport apps. The data is also displayed on boards in a silly fashion, like -23030 hours or something mad, presumably if a clock goes out of sync somewhere in the software.

Even with real time info, if a bus runs late it disappears once it passes the timetable time. And they have no way to show a bus is cancelled, so you are waiting for a phantom bus.

All of these things at the same time as cutting funding. No wonder councils can go on record saying passenger numbers are down. Everything that can be done to make bus travel seem unappealing seems to be done!
 

Bletchleyite

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I doubt the cash thing is such a big deal in the provinces. It may slow boarding down compared to London, but unless you have a flat-fare structure, it will still likely be a faff.

It would reduce if contactless cards were accepted, even if those cards were simply used to buy a ticket from the driver in the traditional manner.
 

Tetchytyke

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Even with real time info, if a bus runs late it disappears once it passes the timetable time. And they have no way to show a bus is cancelled, so you are waiting for a phantom bus.

The Arriva app will show buses that are being live-tracked even after the scheduled departure time. What it won't do is show whether a bus is cancelled- it will just show as a non-tracked bus. And you can't assume a non-tracked bus is not running, as the system does sometimes lose GPS.

Arriva The Shires sell single tickets.

Busaholic said:
Does every bus need to have wheelchair access? It became a bit of an obsession, especially in London when Routemasters were still operating.

I would say they do, certainly in the provinces where 4bph is classed as "turn up and go" service. The point is to let disabled people have the same access to buses as able-bodied people, and that doesn't really work if a person in a wheelchair has to wait an hour for a bus because three step-entrance buses turn up on the trot.
 

bb21

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It would reduce if contactless cards were accepted, even if those cards were simply used to buy a ticket from the driver in the traditional manner.

Have fares better advertised, so people can have the correct change ready would go a long way to achieving that, without the costs associated, as an interim solution, but apparently publishing fare tables is too difficult for some operators. Last I know of, they must be available for inspection on demand by the passenger.

In time, I am sure that cashless payment would come along.
 

radamfi

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We can usually rely on the enthusiast community to create a good real time info app as long as the data is given out freely by the organisations. For example we have Realtime Trains, the various London bus apps and other bus apps which use real time data provided by councils and certain other operators. "Bus Scout" is very good, for example.

However, what is worrying is that Arriva and more recently Stagecoach only seem to provide real time information through their apps or their (mobile) websites except in certain areas where it was already being provided through the council. So if you get a quirky app like the Arriva one mentioned above, then there's no way the enthusiast community can produce a better one. When you have more than one operator in an area, then you need to use multiple apps to get the real time info. I don't see how that can improve patronage.

Real time info for all Dutch transport is available for processing by enthusiasts. They have an official website/app 9292.ov which gives a point to point journey planner, plus the fare for the whole journey as well as real time info. That may sound pretty good, but this enthusiast app takes it to the next level:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nl.skywave.ovinfo

We are an independent app which receives transit data, as required by law, from all transit agencies in the Netherlands
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Arriva The Shires sell single tickets.

How do you buy single tickets? I've looked on the app and I can only find day tickets.
 
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Bletchleyite

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In time, I am sure that cashless payment would come along.

It will; all of the major operators have planned to implement it in some form.
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The Arriva app will show buses that are being live-tracked even after the scheduled departure time. What it won't do is show whether a bus is cancelled- it will just show as a non-tracked bus. And you can't assume a non-tracked bus is not running, as the system does sometimes lose GPS.

That is an issue. What is needed is for the control centre to input cancellations (or non-cancellations) so the system knows, but this isn't done.

It's not, to be fair, a problem with the app, it's a problem with the entire RTPI setup.
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Real time info for all Dutch transport is available for processing by enthusiasts.

It is here as well. You have to apply for access, but it is free for non-profit use.
 

radamfi

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They do if it goes into the national RTPI system. It does in MK at least.

They don't if Arriva/Stagey in that area aren't feeding the national system.

Was that info already there as part of an old council scheme? For example, real time bus times for Arriva in Surrey have been available on third party apps for years. I've just looked on the Traveline app for Arriva bus times in Cannock, Derby and Stretford and they aren't there.
 
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