Trains which never arrive on time

[All Line Rover]

Virgin Trains West Coast is reasonably punctual for a long distance train operator, but they suffer from a problem between London and Crewe (apparently, only between London and Crewe) of certain trains never arriving on time. These are the 17:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:40 (continuing to Manchester) and 19:40 (continuing to Manchester). During the previous three months, the 16:40 (continuing to Manchester) arrived on time in Crewe only once. Perhaps there was a small celebration. Unfortunately it still arrived late in Manchester. Other trains departing Euston are also highly unlikely to arrive in Crewe on time. For example, on the Friday just gone (29 Jan 2016) the 17:40 arrived on time (actually, one minute early!) for the first time in over two months and managed to arrive in Manchester on time and despite arriving on platform 1 (which necessitates taking the time to cross from the west to the east of the station). There should have been a band to greet it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time such a performance has ever been achieved. It would seem that it only achieved this punctuality because, very unusually, it was allowed in front of the (typically) late running London to Preston via Birmingham service - in fact, the '17:07', '18:07' and '19:07' arrivals from Euston via Birmingham have never arrived in Crewe on time within at least the previous three months.

Is there any reason why Crewe seems to be worst station for punctuality for trains leaving Euston (including those which run via Birmingham)? It is unfortunate that this occurs when Crewe happens to be a major interchange station. None of this gets reflected in VT's punctuality statistics, because when a Manchester train arrives up to 15 minutes late at Crewe, it tends to still arrive in Manchester within 10 minutes of the arrival time stated in the public timetable.

Does the blame for these delays lie with Network Rail? Are there other rail routes in England - which don't have a metro-style service - where a number of trains never arrive on time?

 

[itsonlyme]

The xx:11 depatures from Crewe to Manchester are on most occasions a few minutes late arriving at and leaving Crewe. They seem to be on time to Stafford then lose time because they are behind the London - Scotland via Birmingham which is normally late.
It has been like this for some years. Does the railway industry never compare, over a period of weeks. actual running times with timetabled times? This would reveal this type of problem and enable the cause to be rectified, or the timetable changed to reflect actual practice.

 

[306024]

The cynical view is that the industry is too busy working out whose fault the delay is to actually try to prevent it at source.

Changing the timetable to reflect actual practice is a slippery slope. Sure if timings are impossible to achieve then something should be done, but slacken the timetable and on busy routes you could end up with less capacity.

With the ever increasing popularity of our railways, in some cases station dwell times are proving inadequate. Lose time at a couple of stations and lose your path at the next junction it is all too easy to end up late.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Local Maesteg to Cardiff services never depart Pontyclun on time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

VT's half hour from Euston to MKC is often inadequate, slipping by a minute or two here and there, which doesn't cause a huge amount of a problem because most people are not making connections at MKC (if you want Wolverton or Northampton it's easier just to get a direct LM service and not all that much slower) but does look a bit sloppy.

Similarly some LM peak time services are slightly too tightly timed (again causing very few actual issues, though you would be well advised to leave more than 5 minutes to connect onto the Marston Vale at Bletchley), but that is probably because the WCML is so packed at that time of day that if someone breathes on it everything ends up 5 late.

 

[northwichcat]

It's a common occurrence on lines where all services are timed to be stopped at stations for the same amount of time, that some of the busier services finish up being stopped for longer than they are timed to be stopped and consequently lose time.

Also on Northern Rail routes a very busy service which is timed as a Sprinter and has a Pacer running it is pretty much guaranteed to lose time.

 

[Rapidash]

It's almost a miracle if the services out of Plymouth/Penzance arnt a few minutes late when they arrive at Newton Abbot. Similar story for the XC services coming from the North.

I'm only bitter because it inevitably ends up delaying the Pacer I'm on

 

[The Planner]

It has been like this for some years. Does the railway industry never compare, over a period of weeks. actual running times with timetabled times? This would reveal this type of problem and enable the cause to be rectified, or the timetable changed to reflect actual practice.

Yes, it happens all the time, just because it meets PPM it gets picked up in data quality via TRUST if there is a re-occurring time loss in a section. Even if that is only 1 minute that can soon become an attributable delay to the timetable even if the threshold is normally 2 or 3 minutes loss for an incident to auto flag up for investigation. The issue is if you can actually do anything about it, it is a pebble into a pond, fix one train and often you are knocking many more around it.

306024 has it bang on, dwell times are now proving a problem in some cases. There is also the case of regulating for PPM or running as booked, delaying the Anglo Scot could end up being worse than putting a few into a Liverpool or Manchester.

 

[backontrack]

Loads of services out of Ashford International run late. I have many memories of standing around on a freezing cold platform, waiting for delayed trains to arrive.

 

[cactustwirly]

Any of the GWML locals between Paddington and Reading at around 0800-0900. Always between 2-10 minutes late.

 

[455driver]

Trains are now carrying more passengers than they ever were, we still expect the trains to run to the same times they always have, spot the problem?

For those who are a bit thick,
The problem is that more passengers need longer to get off and on the train obviously, okay it's only 10 or 20 seconds at most stations but it soon adds up especially when the SLF decide it is only going to use the one door which delays the train even more.
If pasengers sorted themselves out a bit more it would help but what is needed is for trains to be retimed to allow for the increased station dwell times, that would mean that less trains would physically be able to run so which services would you like to cut from the timetable so the remaining ones can have the necessary (increased) running times so they could be on time.

Instead of bitching about things try and come up with a viable, workable solution!
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Any of the GWML locals between Paddington and Reading at around 0800-0900. Always between 2-10 minutes late.

Which is when they are carrying the most passengers and GWR are trying to run the maximum amount of trains on each line! :roll:

 

[Haydn1971]

In my experiences in the north, TPE and XC are notoriously unreliable, especially on the longer distance routes, with Northern and EMT generally on time or within a minute or two of timetables - typically delays on Northern and EMT appear to be related to the TPE/XC delays.

 

[northwichcat]

In my experiences in the north, TPE and XC are notoriously unreliable, especially on the longer distance routes, with Northern and EMT generally on time or within a minute or two of timetables - typically delays on Northern and EMT appear to be related to the TPE/XC delays.

This side of the Pennines near Stockport we can have on-time services from Chester/Buxton/Sheffield/Hazel Grove held at red signals so that a late running Pendolino can be allowed to run straight in to a platform at Stockport without being delayed further.

 

[Haydn1971]

This side of the Pennines near Stockport we can have on-time services from Chester/Buxton/Sheffield/Hazel Grove held at red signals so that a late running Pendolino can be allowed to run straight in to a platform at Stockport without being delayed further.

But it's not a delay ! Haha, apparently

 

[All Line Rover]

The xx:11 depatures from Crewe to Manchester are on most occasions a few minutes late arriving at and leaving Crewe. They seem to be on time to Stafford then lose time because they are behind the London - Scotland via Birmingham which is normally late.
It has been like this for some years. Does the railway industry never compare, over a period of weeks. actual running times with timetabled times? This would reveal this type of problem and enable the cause to be rectified, or the timetable changed to reflect actual practice.

With the Manchester trains, they can't win. Normal practice (i.e. delay the Manchester train which was running on time, or even early, as far as Stafford) causes missed connections at Crewe and possibly also at Wilmslow and Stockport. But both trains still tend to 'meet' PPM at their destinations. Put the Manchester train in front of the Birmingham train and the Birmingham train will almost certainly fail PPM, as well as miss connections at Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle. Running the Birmingham train permanently behind the Manchester train will permanently break many of these connections and there may not even be a path available north of Warrington.

Might Norton Bridge solve the Manchester / Birmingham problem, by allowing the two trains to run in parallel between Stafford and Crewe?

There is no clear reason why some of the Liverpool trains permanently run late, however.
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Similarly some LM peak time services are slightly too tightly timed (again causing very few actual issues, though you would be well advised to leave more than 5 minutes to connect onto the Marston Vale at Bletchley), but that is probably because the WCML is so packed at that time of day that if someone breathes on it everything ends up 5 late.

The LM trent valley trains are having their journey times extended by 2 minutes in both directions from May - so, e.g. EUS to MKC goes from 30 min to 32 min.

 

[Senex]

Put the Manchester train in front of the Birmingham train and the Birmingham train will almost certainly fail PPM, as well as miss connections at Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle. Running the Birmingham train permanently behind the Manchester train will permanently break many of these connections and there may not even be a path available north of Warrington.

Is there any consistent reason for the Birmingham train being so often late by Stafford? Is a time-loss south of Birmingham being carried forward, or is it actually losing time significantly in the thirty miles north of Birmingham?

Might Norton Bridge solve the Manchester / Birmingham problem, by allowing the two trains to run in parallel between Stafford and Crewe?

I don't see how the Norton Bridge works help in this case. If parallel running is wanted, then the Birmingham train could just stay on the down slow north from Stafford. What Norton Bridge does is allow services between Manchester and Birmingham (and v.v.) not to conflict with services between London and Crewe (and v.v.).

 

[Bijgc]

According to Southern's published performance data, since September, less than 50% of its trains have arrived at their final destination 'on time'. It was at 39% in Nov-Dec (period 9) and only just above it (54%) since July. When the window is extended to '5 minutes late', its still only getting about 75% achieving this!

This is in spite of all the padding inserted into the timetable on routes into LBG!

 

[yorksrob]

The last trans-pennine connection from Manchester to my local line at Leeds is a seven minute connection. Not an official one, but doable, given these trains use the same side of Leeds station. However, it's always late, so I've given up using it.

 

[RichJF]

According to Southern's published performance data, since September, less than 50% of its trains have arrived at their final destination 'on time'. It was at 39% in Nov-Dec (period 9) and only just above it (54%) since July. When the window is extended to '5 minutes late', its still only getting about 75% achieving this!

This is in spite of all the padding inserted into the timetable on routes into LBG!

There's 1 London Bridge train, 1 Victoria train in particular that were never on time before the major works started & their punctuality have become steadily abysmal. The 17:59 to London Bridge to Horsham is now late by at least 5-10 mins every day.
The following Thameslink service has to follow it to Redhill so consequently is perennially crawling from East Croydon.

 

[455driver]

The last trans-pennine connection from Manchester to my local line at Leeds is a seven minute connection. Not an official one, but doable, given these trains use the same side of Leeds station. However, it's always late, so I've given up using it.

So it isn't a connection then is it! :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

So it isn't a connection then is it! :roll:

Seven minutes to get from platform 15 to platform 17 at Leeds isn't unreasonable. However, since TPE is rarely ever on time.....

 

[PHILIPE]

The Minimum correctional time at Leeds is 10 minutes.

 

[yorksrob]

The Minimum correctional time at Leeds is 10 minutes.

I'm aware of that, but that has to take account of people getting from platform 1 to 17 for example (and trust me, you need ten minutes if you're elderly or of limited mobility) However, to get from 15 to 17 is perfectly achievable (providing the train's on time in the first place).

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm aware of that, but that has to take account of people getting from platform 1 to 17 for example (and trust me, you need ten minutes if you're elderly or of limited mobility) However, to get from 15 to 17 is perfectly achievable (providing the train's on time in the first place).

Yes, it's physically possible in many cases but Journey Planner connections use these figures. Cardiff Central is 7 minutes and I've crossed from platform 3 to Platform 7 in three minutes when I've seen the train there, even with arthritis. Much depends on the locations of the platforms in relation to one another but you there are no grounds for complaint if you miss a connection in under 10 minutes.

 

[QueensCurve]

Virgin Trains West Coast is reasonably punctual for a long distance train operator, but they suffer from a problem between London and Crewe (apparently, only between London and Crewe) of certain trains never arriving on time. These are the 17:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:40 (continuing to Manchester) and 19:40 (continuing to Manchester). During the previous three months, the 16:40 (continuing to Manchester) arrived on time in Crewe only once. Perhaps there was a small celebration. Unfortunately it still arrived late in Manchester. Other trains departing Euston are also highly unlikely to arrive in Crewe on time. For example, on the Friday just gone (29 Jan 2016) the 17:40 arrived on time (actually, one minute early!) for the first time in over two months and managed to arrive in Manchester on time and despite arriving on platform 1 (which necessitates taking the time to cross from the west to the east of the station). There should have been a band to greet it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time such a performance has ever been achieved. It would seem that it only achieved this punctuality because, very unusually, it was allowed in front of the (typically) late running London to Preston via Birmingham service - in fact, the '17:07', '18:07' and '19:07' arrivals from Euston via Birmingham have never arrived in Crewe on time within at least the previous three months.

Is there any reason why Crewe seems to be worst station for punctuality for trains leaving Euston (including those which run via Birmingham)? It is unfortunate that this occurs when Crewe happens to be a major interchange station. None of this gets reflected in VT's punctuality statistics, because when a Manchester train arrives up to 15 minutes late at Crewe, it tends to still arrive in Manchester within 10 minutes of the arrival time stated in the public timetable.

Does the blame for these delays lie with Network Rail? Are there other rail routes in England - which don't have a metro-style service - where a number of trains never arrive on time?

The punctuality of Virgin's services at intermediate stations leaves a lot to be desired.

There are potential tight connections out of the xx:40 Ex Glasgow to Chester at Warrington and to Stoke at Crewe. These are missed as often as achieved.

Not that any of this is new. In the 1980s the Daily Penzance to Glasgow/Aberdeen was never less than 19 mins late reaching Dundee.
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The Minimum correctional time at Leeds is 10 minutes.

I find these arbitrary minimum connection times unhelpful.

 

[Minstral25]

There's 1 London Bridge train, 1 Victoria train in particular that were never on time before the major works started & their punctuality have become steadily abysmal. The 17:59 to London Bridge to Horsham is now late by at least 5-10 mins every day.
The following Thameslink service has to follow it to Redhill so consequently is perennially crawling from East Croydon.

Not one London Bridge to Redhill train departing between 16:30 and 19:00 has arrived on time since I've been checking last October.

Despite additional padding in the December timetable, even at 5 minutes late no train achieves better than 50% for 5 minutes late with the 17:59 mentioned at 6%.

Almost as bad situation exists with trains from Victoria, again with additional padding since December.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, it's physically possible in many cases but Journey Planner connections use these figures. Cardiff Central is 7 minutes and I've crossed from platform 3 to Platform 7 in three minutes when I've seen the train there, even with arthritis. Much depends on the locations of the platforms in relation to one another but you there are no grounds for complaint if you miss a connection in under 10 minutes.

Journey planners will tell you to do stupid things because of the connection times programmed in. For instance, if you're changing from the Llandudno-Piccadilly service to the Blackpool-Airport service it will tell you to change at Oxford Rd where you'll need to walk between platforms, instead of Piccadilly where you can remain on platform 14.

 

[RichJF]

Not one London Bridge to Redhill train departing between 16:30 and 19:00 has arrived on time since I've been checking last October.

Despite additional padding in the December timetable, even at 5 minutes late no train achieves better than 50% for 5 minutes late with the 17:59 mentioned at 6%.

Almost as bad situation exists with trains from Victoria, again with additional padding since December.

The 18:26/18:55 aren't great but have been on time about 5 times combined since October time; still abysmal I admit. :roll: They're my regular commutes. That or the 18:30 from Blackfriars to Redhill which used to be good, but now ends up being late & using platform 2 at Redhill most days.

 

[Phil.]

Not one London Bridge to Redhill train departing between 16:30 and 19:00 has arrived on time since I've been checking last October.

Despite additional padding in the December timetable, even at 5 minutes late no train achieves better than 50% for 5 minutes late with the 17:59 mentioned at 6%.

Almost as bad situation exists with trains from Victoria, again with additional padding since December.

Don't tell that to 455 driver, he'll blame the passengers.
When I lived in Redhill and used to meet my wife off her thrice weekly trips from London (sometimes Vic, sometimes Lbg) on platform three off a down evening train I soon learned not to turn up a few minutes before the train was due as it was likely just going through Stoat's Nest. Southern trains keep abysmal time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would say "anything with London Midland written on the side", but that's a little unfair.

The post-peak evening trains out of Euston seem to be the worst, mostly it seems because the WCML signallers have taken to chucking freights (either late ones, or even more annoyingly, early ones) out in front of the London Midland trains. A nice average 30 mph from Willesden to Watford is not uncommon, and nor are 10-15 minute delays by Hemel Hempstead. I'm sure there's logic in the decision, but I'll be screwed if I can find it.

There's also the usual 3-5 minute delays on the really late trains because the guard comes casually strolling down the platform to the locked train 30 seconds before it is due to leave.