Southport threatened to lose direct service to Man Picc & Airport

[trainophile]

http://www.otsnews.co.uk/railway-stitch-up-southport-mp/

Southport MP John Pugh has warned that Southport has a fight on its hands to retain a direct train route to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, following discussions with new Northern Rail franchise winner, Arriva, and Network Rail. Hundreds of Southport residents work in the business and university areas close to Piccadilly and will face the misery of having to change trains every day to get to work if the link is cut.
Under Network Rail and Arriva’s plans Southport will retain only a direct route to Manchester Victoria, with some trains going on to either Bradford or Leeds.
“We and West Lancashire are being ganged up on by the big transport authorities in Merseyside and Manchester,” says Pugh. “This critical route is being squeezed out to make way for their plans Arriva confirmed last Friday.
“It’s full steam ahead in the City Regions and we get shunted into the sidings. Southport is the ONLY place in the North West to lose a direct service into Manchester as part of the new franchise. We are clearly being stitched up and it’s time to call this situation for what it is. Whether through indifference, incompetence or downright malice, Southport is being wilfully discriminated against and not even Merseytravel is standing up for us.”....

Not good news at all. I just hope this doesn't go ahead under the new Northern Arriva franchise .

 

[6Gman]

http://www.otsnews.co.uk/railway-stitch-up-southport-mp/

Not good news at all. I just hope this doesn't go ahead under the new Northern Arriva franchise .

Southport really does get a raw deal from its rail links.

The Liverpool service is frequent ... but slow.

The Manchester service has a reasonable frequency, but is slow and the stock is ropey. And now it may only serve Victoria.

 

[fowler9]

Not brilliant news but how much does Southport need a direct link to Manchester Airport? South Liverpool doesn't have a direct link and has far more people living there than Southport. As for commuters, working in Manchester and living in Southport or Liverpool can surely only be a temporary solution anyway. This kind of living is not sustainable.

 

[yorksrob]

I found this services connections quite useful last year, however it seems to have been diverted away from the Atherton route this year and my connections are screwed !

Even the connection via Victoria through to Huddersfield seems to have been ruined as well.

Every year it seems to be a case of finding out how the transpennine timetable's been ruined this time.

 

[northwichcat]

The reason it was mooted was to increase the number of electric services from Bolton to Manchester, yet Arriva have proposed a DMU service on Chat Moss between Liverpool and Manchester and Bradford. One rule for one line and another rule for another line?

 

[Ploughman]

Is the situation going back to what it used to be like in the late 60s - early 70s?
When I lived in Southport then, most trains seemed to be to Man Vic either through Bolton or not.
Or is my memory playing up again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Prior to the opening of the Windsor Link, Southport trains couldn't *get* to Picc.

With Picc-Vic trains via the Ordsall Chord, I don't really see a problem. There will be no cut from the 1998 2tph service, it's just that both will run to Victoria. Prior to the 1998 changes, it was slightly less than hourly off-peak with a few peak extras.

 

[trainophile]

Well I rely on it at least once a fortnight, to connect with my ATW service to Hereford. It's not really an option to go to Victoria, nightmare bus journey to get from Vic to Picc - I tried it once last year and it took about half an hour, due to the diversionary route through the city centre with its heavy traffic. Was more stop than go .

I'll just have to go back via Liverpool, which I don't relish as I hate the scramble for seats on the ATW at Crewe. Ah well, it was good while it lasted .

 

[northwichcat]

Prior to the opening of the Windsor Link, Southport trains couldn't *get* to Picc.

With Picc-Vic trains via the Ordsall Chord, I don't really see a problem. There will be no cut from the 1998 2tph service, it's just that both will run to Victoria. Prior to the 1998 changes, it was slightly less than hourly off-peak with a few peak extras.

The Windsor link opened in 1988 so I think a lot of people who commuted pre-1988 will have moved or retired since.

Was 1998 when the Chester-Stockport-Southport services (which started in 1989) ended in favour of sending Southport services to the Airport?

 

[Clip]

Not brilliant news but how much does Southport need a direct link to Manchester Airport? .

Its often mooted on here that people with large bags...... .

 

[thealexweb]

Can someone evaluate how viable the following would be:

1tph Southport to Leeds (via Atherton and Manchester Victoria) - As planned.
AND
1tph Southport to Chester (via Atherton and Stockport) - Similar to the Sunday service, only via Atherton instead of Bolton, same platform change for the Airport.

This would minimize running under the wires and maintain some through routes.

 

[exile]

Is the situation going back to what it used to be like in the late 60s - early 70s?
When I lived in Southport then, most trains seemed to be to Man Vic either through Bolton or not.
Or is my memory playing up again.

On the other hand, back in 1962 the 7.50 departure from Southport got to Manchester at 8.45, and the 8.5 got in at 8.57. On the journey home, the 5pm from Victoria reached Southport at 5.49.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well I rely on it at least once a fortnight, to connect with my ATW service to Hereford. It's not really an option to go to Victoria, nightmare bus journey to get from Vic to Picc - I tried it once last year and it took about half an hour, due to the diversionary route through the city centre with its heavy traffic. Was more stop than go ..

Metrolink - or walk.

 

[Darren R]

Well, call me cynical, but.... there is only one source of information in the newspaper article: the local MP. Nothing from Arriva, or Network Rail, or the DfT, or indeed anyone other than the egregious John Pugh. Which kind of leads me to one question: do we know if it is true?

The only official source of information we have at the moment (everything else is largely speculation) has this to say:

One of the current Southport services each hour to Manchester will be extended to provide a direct link either to Leeds or Bradford (or both). All Pacers will be withdrawn, to be replaced with fully refurbished trains.

(Source: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html)

But even if it is true, it's hardly the end of the world. So some passengers will have to get off the train at Salford Crescent and stand on the same platform for a few minutes. I don't understand this obsession with direct trains to Manchester Airport - there are plenty of towns on the Northern network that don't have trains to the airport, including ones that are bigger than Southport.

It makes me wonder if local elections are imminent....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is the scurrilous view that this is solely to keep "Newton Heath's Finest" from spoiling the ambience of Manchester Airport station...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I rely on it at least once a fortnight, to connect with my ATW service to Hereford. It's not really an option to go to Victoria, nightmare bus journey to get from Vic to Picc - I tried it once last year and it took about half an hour, due to the diversionary route through the city centre with its heavy traffic. Was more stop than go

It's about 10 minutes' walk, or cough up a quid or so and use the tram.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was 1998 when the Chester-Stockport-Southport services (which started in 1989) ended in favour of sending Southport services to the Airport?

Yes. It was one of the service increases implemented by North Western Trains - and one of the few that actually stuck when they realised they didn't have the rolling stock to actually do what they did (a common early-day privatisation error).

The old service was roughly-but-not-quite-hourly Southport-Chester via Manchester plus a few peak extras that ran to/from Vic. The new service was roughly as it is now - 1tph semifast to Manchester Airport plus 1tph slow to Vic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its often mooted on here that people with large bags...... .

...can probably cope with a same-platform change at Salford Crescent?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Windsor link opened in 1988 so I think a lot of people who commuted pre-1988 will have moved or retired since.

True, but equally back then there was half of naff all in the very run-down area around Vic, these days there's plenty of demand to/from around there.

It's a mild nuisance for connections, I'll give you, but there is Salford Crescent, as well as direct Picc-Vic services around the Ordsall Chord, and the tram (albeit not free). You could also consider adding a proper service back on Stockport-Stalybridge, but really that's not needed.

The people for whom it will be a nuisance (and probably only a mild one given the options above) are probably principally anyone commuting to Manchester University.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't understand this obsession with direct trains to Manchester Airport - there are plenty of towns on the Northern network that don't have trains to the airport, including ones that are bigger than Southport.

TBH, given the shortage of DMUs at Northern and TPE and that EMUs are rather easier to come by, I'd chop all the Airport services that don't have to go there to reverse at Picc to save DMUs, and replace with a dedicated service.

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day nowhere apart from London city centre and a few suburbs of London have a direct link to Heathrow. Why does Southport need a direct train to Manchester Airport?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the end of the day nowhere apart from London city centre and a few suburbs of London have a direct link to Heathrow. Why does Southport need a direct train to Manchester Airport?

I don't think it does at all. I think the main issue is the loss of a direct link to Oxford Road and Picc, but it's really not all *that* big an issue with the alternatives provided.

 

[fowler9]

I don't think it does at all. I think the main issue is the loss of a direct link to Oxford Road and Picc, but it's really not all *that* big an issue with the alternatives provided.

It looks like people traveling from South Liverpool will loose their FTPE link. Same as the whole of Liverpool lost its direct trains to the South coast, South West and Wales. Southport loosing its direct link to one part of Manchester City Centre doesn't look quite as bad by comparison.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

TBH, given the shortage of DMUs at Northern and TPE and that EMUs are rather easier to come by, I'd chop all the Airport services that don't have to go there to reverse at Picc to save DMUs, and replace with a dedicated service.

Let us hope that this is naught but an aspiration on your part and not one that is in your gift to so decree.

How do you view the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service that is run by DMU?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you view the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service that is run by DMU?

An excellent example of one which should be curtailed at Picc to save DMUs, given TPE's severe DMU shortage and overcrowding problem.

When more DMUs have been delivered it could of course be reinstated as before, but splitting now could allow another TPE DMU service to run as 6-car, which would give a respite to the vast majority of passengers who are not going to the Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It looks like people traveling from South Liverpool will loose their FTPE link. Same as the whole of Liverpool lost its direct trains to the South coast, South West and Wales. Southport loosing its direct link to one part of Manchester City Centre doesn't look quite as bad by comparison.

You mean South Parkway? It's probably of similarly low significance as long as Lime St doesn't lose it. You can always pop up to Lime St and change, or change in Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

TBH, given the shortage of DMUs at Northern and TPE and that EMUs are rather easier to come by, I'd chop all the Airport services that don't have to go there to reverse at Picc to save DMUs, and replace with a dedicated service.

Although, with services from the west chopping at Piccadilly doesn't automatically free up a unit or free up a path to allow an EMU to run to the Airport in lieu. You might just finish up with a greater variety of trains using Mayfield Loop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although, with services from the west chopping at Piccadilly doesn't automatically free up a unit or free up a path to allow an EMU to run to the Airport in lieu. You might just finish up with a greater variety of trains using Mayfield Loop.

True; it's the trains that reverse in Picc that are perhaps best for this.

 

[tbtc]

To put things in a little context, I think that the average number of departing/alighting passengers on services at Manchester Airport is around thirty four per train. Happy to be corrected, of course...

Since a lot of those trains are at least three coaches long (185s, 319s, 350s), that's a lot of empty seats per hour at the Airport. And, since a significant number of those passengers are going no further than central Manchester, the actual numbers continuing all the way from Middlesbrough/ Cleethorpes etc must be pretty small?

We know that Bradford is getting a regular DMU service to the Airport under the new franchise, we know that Warrington Central is getting a regular DMU service to the Airport under the new franchise, we know that Barrow is getting an increased DMU service to the Airport under the new franchise... that's a lot of (supposedly scarce) DMUs running under the wires to the Airport.

Given all this, it's hardly surprising that somewhere is losing out - Southport seems to be that "loser" (though I don't think we've seen this officially anywhere).

Some places have lost direct links to Manchester Airport in the past - IIRC Hull used to get an hourly service, Windermere lost virtually all of it's services a few years ago, Newcastle/ Durham/ Darlington lost their direct services when TPE's "fifth path" came in.

TBH, given the shortage of DMUs at Northern and TPE and that EMUs are rather easier to come by, I'd chop all the Airport services that don't have to go there to reverse at Picc to save DMUs, and replace with a dedicated service.

The Cleethorpes service could certainly be chopped - I'd rather have sufficient three coach 185s to run Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly each hour than have to dilute the service with two coach 170s to ensure that there were enough units to permit an extension to the Airport each hour.

The reason it was mooted was to increase the number of electric services from Bolton to Manchester, yet Arriva have proposed a DMU service on Chat Moss between Liverpool and Manchester and Bradford. One rule for one line and another rule for another line?

I don't know why this happened, but it's regrettable that (after spending money on electrifying Chat Moss) we'll see the number of Northern EMUs on that route from Liverpool to Manchester go down from the current three/ hour at rush hour today (i.e. Liverpool - Airport, Liverpool - Victoria plus the peak extension of the Liverpool - Warrington service to Victoria) to just one an hour (Liverpool - Airport).

I don't understand this obsession with direct trains to Manchester Airport - there are plenty of towns on the Northern network that don't have trains to the airport, including ones that are bigger than Southport

Agreed.

Birmingham/ Stansted/ Heathrow (etc) Airports seem to function pretty well without needing direct rail services from every town under their flightpaths.

I'd guess that Manchester Airport has political clout, given it's ownership by the local councils, which elevates it to some kind of special status though? People have bought into the idea that the economic success of northern England depends upon it.

I'd focus direct services to Manchester Airport on "local" places like Stoke and Chester ahead of distant places like Cleethorpes and Barrow, but that's just me.

At the end of the day nowhere apart from London city centre and a few suburbs of London have a direct link to Heathrow. Why does Southport need a direct train to Manchester Airport?

True.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not brilliant news but how much does Southport need a direct link to Manchester Airport? South Liverpool doesn't have a direct link and has far more people living there than Southport. As for commuters, working in Manchester and living in Southport or Liverpool can surely only be a temporary solution anyway. This kind of living is not sustainable.[/QUOTE]

Why? Southport to Central Manchester is little over an hour. That's only 15 minutes longer than commuting to Liverpool, and I'm sure wages will be higher in Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd focus direct services to Manchester Airport on "local" places like Stoke and Chester ahead of distant places like Cleethorpes and Barrow, but that's just me.

TBH I'd only have direct services where it's a convenient reversal point. It would be simpler to understand and waste zero DMUs if there was just 4tph Merseyrail-style clockface of Picc-all stations-Airport with one of those continuing to Crewe. That would also boost usage of Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury and Gatley. Class 319/2s with added luggage space would be ideal.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know why this happened, but it's regrettable that (after spending money on electrifying Chat Moss) we'll see the number of Northern EMUs on that route from Liverpool to Manchester go down from the current three/ hour at rush hour today (i.e. Liverpool - Airport, Liverpool - Victoria plus the peak extension of the Liverpool - Warrington service to Victoria) to just one an hour (Liverpool - Airport).

Although there will be 2 TPE services per hour between Liverpool and Manchester which will be operated by bi-mode trains, so the number of services using the overheads will go up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So some passengers will have to get off the train at Salford Crescent and stand on the same platform for a few minutes. I don't understand this obsession with direct trains to Manchester Airport - there are plenty of towns on the Northern network that don't have trains to the airport, including ones that are bigger than Southport.

I think it's the direct Oxford Road and Piccadilly link which John Pugh seems to be saying will be a real loss opposed to the Airport link.

Manchester bound it probably won't be too bad but Southport bound it may not be, a service regularly a few minutes late resulting in a missed connection could add over 30 minutes to commuter's journey times.

It makes me wonder if local elections are imminent....

Sefton Council had an election last year. John Pugh is probably one of the most pro-local rail MPs there is.

 

[RAPC]

It's about 10 minutes' walk, or cough up a quid or so and use the tram.

For Usain Bolt, it probably is, but for even a quick walker like myself it is about 15 minutes. A normal walking pace is around 20 minutes. According to Google Maps it is 23 minutes and 1.1 miles from station entrance to station entrance. (You can add another couple of minutes to get to most platforms at Victoria as well)

The tram is £1.20 single and £1.50 return, or £25 for a 4 week pass. So a reasonable cost to factor for regular travellers and certainly not the brief 10 minute walk suggested.

 

[northwichcat]

For Usain Bolt, it probably is, but for even a quick walker like myself it is about 15 minutes. A normal walking pace is around 20 minutes. According to Google Maps it is 23 minutes and 1.1 miles from station entrance to station entrance. (You can add another couple of minutes to get to most platforms at Victoria as well)

A mobile app I have tells me I can walk 1.1 miles in 12 minutes but to be able to do that presumes I don't get stuck behind other people or have to wait to cross the road, both of which are unlikely in a city centre unless it's 6am on a Sunday morning.

 

[Platform 1000]

big deal, passengers will just have to use Victoria and get the metrolink or use them two flaps of skin below the waist which are called legs!!!

 

[thealexweb]

big deal, passengers will just have to use Victoria and get the metrolink or use them two flaps of skin below the waist which are called legs!!!

Would the Metrolink be free for someone travelling between Southport and Manchester Airport? I do not believe it would be but I am more than happy to be proved wrong.