Ordsall Chord

[Busaholic]

I've spent all day In Search of the Lost Curve - didn't see which way she went.

 

[billh]

It was a Great Central service and so used that company's platforms at London Road. Almost all the trains reversed in Guide Bridge, but it was possible to run direct and in April 1910 one train, the 9:23 a.m. from Manchester, was still doing that. I haven't looked to see whether the service continued into LNER days.

The direct line ,Canal Junction to Audenshaw West Junction closed in 1938, the rails were lifted for WW2 scrap drive. There was an air raid shelter built on the formation at Canal Junction and the whole of this section of line, in cutting was filled in about 1965.
Audenshaw West became just Audenshaw junction and was merely a set of crossovers from fast to slow lines , the scene of a very serious accident in 1970(?) ,It was found that signalling equipment was being routinely tampered with in order to speed the flow of traffic.
Bill

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Audenshaw West became just Audenshaw junction and was merely a set of crossovers from fast to slow lines,, the scene of a very serious accident in 1970

Was that the one involving a Class 506 emu?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Was that the one involving a Class 506 emu?

Yeah. Had a look at the accident report on Railways Archive earlier, don't have the link to hand, but Google found it first or second hit.

 

[zuriblue]

Yeah. Had a look at the accident report on Railways Archive earlier, don't have the link to hand, but Google found it first or second hit.

This is the one.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=269

 

[QueensCurve]

Getting a bit fed up of this irritating little man. Representing as he does, the 3 or 4 people who want to see the link to LSS retained at the cost of progress, growth, regeneration etc. Can we not somehow resurrect Mr Stephenson to give the guy a resounding slap round the face with a wet fish?

That reminds me of a Monty Python Sketch.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

North TPE use platforms 1-4 for york and MIA departures save for one or two peak services that drop in on 12. (Usually 1 or 3 for yrk/mbr/hul, 4 for airport) Its only the south TPE routes that use 8-10 hile the NW and LIV-SCA obviously use the junction. Its this service in particular that snarls up the station throat the most

Diverting north TPE services via MCV will eliminate the LIV-SCA conflict and divert all north TPE thru the junction straight on the slade lane lines and completely avoiding the station throat in the process. The CLEE-MIA and the EMT services have much less impact on the station throat and can be far better managed as they are. This does however put much more traffic through ordsall/windsor/Castlefield area and assocoated junctions so flyovers here would be an advantage. Theres certainly the space available now, but wont be for long. the stretch from PICC-MCO will be 4 tracked which will also improve capacity, especially once the TPE services are diverted.

 

[Altfish]

North TPE use platforms 1-4 for york and MIA departures save for one or two peak services that drop in on 12. (Usually 1 or 3 for yrk/mbr/hul, 4 for airport) Its only the south TPE routes that use 8-10 hile the NW and LIV-SCA obviously use the junction. Its this service in particular that snarls up the station throat the most

Diverting north TPE services via MCV will eliminate the LIV-SCA conflict and divert all north TPE thru the junction straight on the slade lane lines and completely avoiding the station throat in the process. The CLEE-MIA and the EMT services have much less impact on the station throat and can be far better managed as they are. This does however put much more traffic through ordsall/windsor/Castlefield area and assocoated junctions so flyovers here would be an advantage. Theres certainly the space available now, but wont be for long. the stretch from PICC-MCO will be 4 tracked which will also improve capacity, especially once the TPE services are diverted.

A correction here. There are no plans to 4-track between Piccadilly and MCO. There will be 4 through platforms at Piccadilly and 4 at MCO but it'll still be 2-track in between.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

A correction here. There are no plans to 4-track between Piccadilly and MCO. There will be 4 through platforms at Piccadilly and 4 at MCO but it'll still be 2-track in between.

With a designed planning headway of three minutes - the constraint shifts to Castlefield Junction!

 

[The Planner]

With a designed planning headway of three minutes - the constraint shifts to Castlefield Junction!

Sir, surely you are getting your planning and technical mixed up!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Sir, surely you are getting your planning and technical mixed up!

Au contraire mon fraire; je suis under the impression that CS7 was built round 3 planning? Not convinced you'll get 16 an hour to work at 3 technical (given that at least one of those calls at Picc, Occy Road and Knott Mill simultaneously ... )

And another thing - how dare you!

 

[po8crg]

How big of a constraint is Knott Mill station? Could more trains be run through if it closed? Would two more platforms there allow more trains?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How big of a constraint is Knott Mill station? Could more trains be run through if it closed? Would two more platforms there allow more trains?

I am somewhat intrigued about two more platforms at Deansgate (formerly Knott Mill) in how these will be so accommodated in the available land space there and how the existing junction situated immediately past the station there will allow for this aspiration.

 

[HowardGWR]

Au contraire mon fraire; je suis under the impression that CS7 was built round 3 planning? Not convinced you'll get 16 an hour to work at 3 technical (given that at least one of those calls at Picc, Occy Road and Knott Mill simultaneously ... )

And another thing - how dare you!

My translate button does not pick up any known language. Could this be translated from NR-speak (if that is what it is)?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Au contraire mon fraire; je suis under the impression that CS7 was built round 3 planning? Not convinced you'll get 16 an hour to work at 3 technical (given that at least one of those calls at Picc, Occy Road and Knott Mill simultaneously ... )

And another thing - how dare you!

My translate button does not pick up any known language. Could this be translated from NR-speak (if that is what it is)?

NR Franglais

 

[furnessvale]

I am somewhat intrigued about two more platforms at Deansgate (formerly Knott Mill) in how these will be so accommodated in the available land space there and how the existing junction situated immediately past the station there will allow for this aspiration.

I make no comment about the viability of the scheme or the available land, but perhaps the junction problem would be best solved by splitting BEFORE the platforms (coming from Oxo Rd) and having a pair of lines serving Trafford Park and a pair going towards Ordsall Lane?

 

[TBirdFrank]

There wil only be two tracks from The A6 London Road bridge all the way to Ordsall Lane under this barmy scenario. Loss of heritage is merely one downside of the Northern Hub as envisaged.

I see today that Northern's airport trains were terminating at Altrincham. I recommended years ago that the airport line be carried through to Lymm and a junction with the former LNWR Warrington line which would have also linked Speke airport and created the capacity for a three 747 length airport on two sites - my problem is that I am light years ahead of the crowd who cannot see the obvious until it hits them head on.

This scenario solves nothing as I have said all along, it merely tries to shoehorn even more traffic along the south side city line which is why I have all along seen advantage in a duplicate city crossing to the north and east adding both strategic diversionary capacity and putting the stadia on the network, but the clever boys collecting their fees will have none of it - how long before we have trains stacked up from Golborne to Bolton to Brewery and the operators tearing their hair out about lack of capacity.


Don't come crying to me boys!!!!!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Don't come crying to me boys!!!!!

Don't worry - I wont.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Au contraire mon fraire; je suis under the impression that CS7 was built round 3 planning? Not convinced you'll get 16 an hour to work at 3 technical (given that at least one of those calls at Picc, Occy Road and Knott Mill simultaneously ... )

And another thing - how dare you!

My translate button does not pick up any known language. Could this be translated from NR-speak (if that is what it is)?

I don't see what was wrong with the first version, but here goes:

"On the contrary my industry colleague; I was under the impression that Northern Hub and Electrification configuration state seven assumed a three minute planning headway? Professionally, I am not convinced that 16 services per hour is achievable with a three minute technical headway (given that at least one of those sixteen services is of such a length that it occupies platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate simultaneously )

Secondly; how dare you impugn my understanding of the difference between technical and planning headway!"

I make no comment about the viability of the scheme or the available land, but perhaps the junction problem would be best solved by splitting BEFORE the platforms (coming from Oxo Rd) and having a pair of lines serving Trafford Park and a pair going towards Ordsall Lane?

Better still, how about continuing the four track layout at Oxford Road through Deansgate and abolishing Castlefield Jn. altogether?

That scheme last revised 2001 ... it's a bit pricey!

I see today that Northern's airport trains were terminating at Altrincham.

Really? National Rail says

Northern Rail services between Manchester Piccadilly and Alderley Edge/Crewe (via Manchester Airport) will start from/terminate at Wilmslow/Alderley Edge and trains between Manchester Piccadilly and Crewe (via Stockport) will start from/terminate at Stockport/Alderley Edge. Replacement buses will operate between Stockport/Wilmslow and Alderley Edge/Crewe. Services from Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke-on-Trent will depart earlier than normal, calling additionally at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel. Trains from Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly will run as booked.

Get your facts straight.

I recommended years ago that the airport line be carried through to Lymm and a junction with the former LNWR Warrington line which would have also linked Speke airport and created the capacity for a three 747 length airport on two sites - my problem is that I am light years ahead of the crowd who cannot see the obvious until it hits them head on.

Never heard of it (and I would know) so your peers at Railtrack didn't rate you either.

Don't come crying to me boys!!!!!

I'll join that growing queue ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't come crying to me boys!!!!!

Why is it that I now mentally see you and your postings as a modern reincarnation of "the bad penny that keeps turning up" ?

 

[QueensCurve]

Au contraire mon fraire... )

And another thing - how dare you!

fr[FONT=&quot]è[/FONT]re?

 

[Greybeard33]

"On the contrary my industry colleague; I was under the impression that Northern Hub and Electrification configuration state seven assumed a three minute planning headway? Professionally, I am not convinced that 16 services per hour is achievable with a three minute technical headway (given that at least one of those sixteen services is of such a length that it occupies platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate simultaneously )

Is it still planned that the the Dec 2019 timetable will allow for two freight paths per hour each way to/from Trafford Park throughout the day, as envisaged in the original Manchester Hub study? Or do Arriva's Northern service proposals assume that one of those paths through Deansgate will be available for a passenger service?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is it still planned that the the Dec 2019 timetable will allow for two freight paths per hour each way to/from Trafford Park throughout the day, as envisaged in the original Manchester Hub study? Or do Arriva's Northern service proposals assume that one of those paths through Deansgate will be available for a passenger service?

I don't actually know. What you need is a Planner ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

fr[FONT=&quot]è[/FONT]re?

Jacque?

Papa!

 

[Bantamzen]

I see today that Northern's airport trains were terminating at Altrincham. I recommended years ago that the airport line be carried through to Lymm and a junction with the former LNWR Warrington line which would have also linked Speke airport and created the capacity for a three 747 length airport on two sites - my problem is that I am light years ahead of the crowd who cannot see the obvious until it hits them head on.

Having family living in that area of Cheshire and so being quite familiar with it, I’d say that any link from the Airport through Lymm and onto the current Manchester – Liverpool line via Warrington & Liverpool Airport (well close to anyway) would have to cross some rather tricky terrain (lots of potential flooding), and of course cross the Manchester Ship Canal. And then of course you would have to ask, why would linking the two airports together be beneficial? There isn’t much of a market for transit between the two, save the odd times when diversions from one or the other are in place. And frankly it’s much easier, and probably quicker to arrange road transfers where flights are diverted from one to the other (and many Manchester flights couldn’t be handled at Liverpool anyway).

So asides from a slightly quicker transit from Liverpool to Manchester Airport, and a link between Warrington and the same, just what benefits would this costly piece of engineering have brought?

This scenario solves nothing as I have said all along, it merely tries to shoehorn even more traffic along the south side city line which is why I have all along seen advantage in a duplicate city crossing to the north and east adding both strategic diversionary capacity and putting the stadia on the network, but the clever boys collecting their fees will have none of it - how long before we have trains stacked up from Golborne to Bolton to Brewery and the operators tearing their hair out about lack of capacity.

Ah, the stadia link again. You seem to focus heavily on this rather link via heavy rail, is there any particular reason why the Ordsall Chord scheme should have be redirected to ensure that a stadium used a few dozen times a year rather than trying to improve the transit of trains moving between the North and the East towards the Airport, which is in use 365 days a year, 17+hours a week?

Don't come crying to me boys!!!!!

I will be adding my name to list the of people unconcerned by your inability to sell your ideas.

 

[Ploughman]

Jacque?

Papa!

Nicole!

 

[Altfish]

I see today that Northern's airport trains were terminating at Altrincham.

I assume that you mean Alderley Edge as no 'Airport' trains go through Altrincham.

 

[AndyW33]

I'm puzzled by the Manchester Airport to Liverpool Airport rail link idea too.
Manchester is one of only two airports in the UK with two runways which can both be used at the same time, and from the point of view of absolute capacity it is a very long way from full up. Especially in winter, they operate just one of the runways for much of the day.The terminals are too small, but there are much cheaper ways to address that than building a completely new railway line.
If you want to link Liverpool and Manchester airports for connecting passengers, how would this work? Unless you also build a new station at Manchester Airport, instead of simply extending the line, passengers arriving at Manchester would have to cross the UK border and clear customs, make their way to the railway station, catch a train to Liverpool Airport, and go through security again because they've mixed with non-cleared travellers. Now separate trains for passengers with connecting flights, with their baggage in sealed baggage compartments, linked to each terminal at MAN airside, and at LPL airside would do that job, but at what price?
That's before we consider that nearly all the flights at LPL are by airlines like Ryanair and EasyJet who simply don't sell connecting flights at all, and a high proportion of flights at MAN are the same or are package holiday charters. Where are the connecting passengers?
If you want to make it easier for people living in Greater Manchester to catch planes from Liverpool Airport, and for people in Merseyside to catch planes from Manchester Airport, I'm all in favour of that. I'm just not sure why routing them through the airport that they aren't using along the way is the best way to achieve it.

 

[The Planner]

I don't actually know. What you need is a Planner ...

Nothing has changed that I know of, would make it interesting come to a Sale of Access Rights (SOAR) panel if all of a sudden we gave a freight path away that was was a premise of the improvements. We sort of muddled our way through ATW to the airport as it is.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I'm puzzled by the Manchester Airport to Liverpool Airport rail link idea too.

Just link LJL to the main line half a mile away. Immediately you have a 1h20m (ish) service via Lime Street. This is a good scheme on its own, particularly if the Edge Hill to Central link via Wapping happens (putting LJL on Merseyrail)

If someone got round to building the Western Link at MIA you could then go LJL-Weaver-Hartford LNW-Northwich-MIA, which is likely to be under an hour, with no further works.

When the West Coast is remodelled to remove the two track between Crewe and Weaver (a capacity improvement whose time is approaching) then it may all get grade separated at Hartford LNW as well.

All that said, this is competing with a 40 minute trip by road ...

 

[TBirdFrank]

Railtrack - despite pleadings to join what turned out to be the most anti rail outfit in years, I chose not to. The phone call from their MD to wish me well was nice - but Railtrack turned out to be an unmitigated disaster - something else I was right about - So - No - of my own choice I had no peers in that organisation.

Over the next seven years I learn't why I would have laughed at anyone from Railtrack commenting on us - their performance was utterly and completely lamentable, and then they collapsed!