Nottingham 'Bus War'

[Pe251lz]

Regarding the 49?? The 48 is going down to every ten minutes in May so I'm told & the spare Navy buses are transferring to the green line 10 as overcrowding is an issue.

 

[edwin_m]

Regarding the 49?? The 48 is going down to every ten minutes in May so I'm told & the spare Navy buses are transferring to the green line 10 as overcrowding is an issue.

It's only a few months since they replaced alternate double deckers on the 10 with singles. Can't imagine the loss of the Ruddington Connection has made that much difference...

 

[ivanhoe]

​

Quite possible.

Local authorities are being squeezed both in their central funding and in their ability to raise council tax, not to mention many of their costs increasing above inflation and likely to be aggravated by the "living wage". Stopping free travel for pensioners for what is essentially a medium-distance coach service is more justifiable than may other cuts, especially for the Red Arrow where alternatives (albeit much slower) will remain free.

See also the decision to stop NCT through ticketing to the Link buses.

But will Trent Barton attract more paying passengers to offset loss of income from concessionary travel? This is the question, no one knows the answer to. Concessionary travel , it can be argued, gives cash flow to operators whose buses would otherwise be empty. Yes, reimbursement is inadequate, but it helps the likes of Trent Barton to run a timetabled premium services.

 

[kevjs]

It's only a few months since they replaced alternate double deckers on the 10 with singles. Can't imagine the loss of the Ruddington Connection has made that much difference...

Weren't they napped for the 100's which were very overcrowded, and now that the 48 is showing real demand levels (with NET Line 2 fully open and the A453 roadworks gone) NCT can rebalance the 10 a bit better...

 

[Robertj21a]

But will Trent Barton attract more paying passengers to offset loss of income from concessionary travel? This is the question, no one knows the answer to. Concessionary travel , it can be argued, gives cash flow to operators whose buses would otherwise be empty. Yes, reimbursement is inadequate, but it helps the likes of Trent Barton to run a timetabled premium services.

I'd be surprised if Trent gain significantly more paying passengers, it's not as if the coaches are already full up. The loss of quite high numbers of 'Twirlies' on the Red Arrow may, in due course, result in Trent reducing the frequency.

 

[WillPS]

Weren't they napped for the 100's which were very overcrowded, and now that the 48 is showing real demand levels (with NET Line 2 fully open and the A453 roadworks gone) NCT can rebalance the 10 a bit better...

The A453 was already fully open when the single deckers on the 10 showed up; and the tram was weeks away from taking passengers if it hadn't already.

 

[howittpie]

If I remember rightly the reason the 10 went to a mixture of single and double deck was demand. NCT at the time said a college had closed down on the route meaning demand had decreased and to keep there service viable at the same frequency every other bus would be single deck. A lot of passengers at the time thought there would be overcrowding issues. To be honest when I have used an off peak 10 they seem lightly loaded compared to other routes.

 

[edwin_m]

If I remember rightly the reason the 10 went to a mixture of single and double deck was demand. NCT at the time said a college had closed down on the route meaning demand had decreased and to keep there service viable at the same frequency every other bus would be single deck. A lot of passengers at the time thought there would be overcrowding issues. To be honest when I have used an off peak 10 they seem lightly loaded compared to other routes.

That was certainly what was said the time.

The 10 seems to have been a bit marginal for some time. NCT experimented with short workings and then restored the full route but at 12min instead of 10min interval (which I think would disqualify it from being a GO2 under the original definition, but it is still so branded). The 6 and 8/9 were cut back in 2012 and I generally get the impression the economics of bus operation are hitting NCT a bit harder in Bridgford than elsewhere.

 

[kevjs]

That was certainly what was said the time.

The 10 seems to have been a bit marginal for some time. NCT experimented with short workings and then restored the full route but at 12min instead of 10min interval (which I think would disqualify it from being a GO2 under the original definition, but it is still so branded). The 6 and 8/9 were cut back in 2012 and I generally get the impression the economics of bus operation are hitting NCT a bit harder in Bridgford than elsewhere.

Bridgford is a bit of an odd one - the buses seem much quieter than they used to be (my local route used to be every ten and full, and is now every 12 and half empty - although evenings are unchanged), but the road's aren't noticeably busier (if anything they seem to be quieter than a decade ago) - an increasing number of people do seem to be walking and cycling though, but not a huge number - but then again perhaps a significant proportion are former bus passengers?

I wonder if one of the bigger changes though is more student accommodation being in the city centre resulting in fewer students travelling into the city. It is noticeable how few properties seem to advertise as student lets nowadays.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I've just been looking at the new timetables for Notts & Derbys 11 & Ilkeston Flyer from 29th May on Derbyshire County Councils website (from here: http://www.derbysbus.info/times/tt_A_Z.htm ).
It appears that N&D are no longer to be involved in the IF as they have disappeared from the timetable as an operator.
The 11 is extended twice a day to start from/terminate at Langley Mill depot with the loss of the first two N&D departures from Derby & last N&D run from Ilkeston Hospital (There is a new 1900 Derby to Langley Mill on the 11). So both routes are solely being run from Langley Mill depot. Thats 3 vehicles removed from Derby operations. Interesting.

 

[tbone]

I've just been looking at the new timetables for Notts & Derbys 11 & Ilkeston Flyer from 29th May on Derbyshire County Councils website (from here: http://www.derbysbus.info/times/tt_A_Z.htm ).
It appears that N&D are no longer to be involved in the IF as they have disappeared from the timetable as an operator.
The 11 is extended twice a day to start from/terminate at Langley Mill depot with the loss of the first two N&D departures from Derby & last N&D run from Ilkeston Hospital (There is a new 1900 Derby to Langley Mill on the 11). So both routes are solely being run from Langley Mill depot. Thats 3 vehicles removed from Derby operations. Interesting.

Derby, Sutton and Nottingham depots are all at capacity I believe whereas Langley Mill has space. Given that Notts and Derby, Derby Community Transport and Trent Barton all use Derby depot, neither can expand at present.

The Ilkeston flyer was a Derby operated service until 2011 when it moved to Langley Mill with an increased frequency. This is another example of that.

 

[ag51ruk]

Derby depot always looks incredibly full when you pass by on a train in the evening or early morning - I often wonder how they manage to get the route branded buses out in the right order.

 

[Mugby]

Derby depot always looks incredibly full when you pass by on a train in the evening or early morning - I often wonder how they manage to get the route branded buses out in the right order.

You could almost say it's a problem of their own making!

 

[kevjs]

NCT have a number of changes from 1st May http://nctx.co.uk/maychanges

daytime 1's to Gotham are withdrawn on weekdays and run to Clifton only on weekends
3 on Sunday runs Ruddington to Clifton only
10 becomes an every 15 minutes all double deck service
48/48A drops to every 10 minutes to reflect a fall in usage since tram launched

Minor changes on 2, 3, 8, 15, 16, 28, 30, 39, 87, 88, and A2

 

[SCH117X]

NCT have a number of changes from 1st May http://nctx.co.uk/maychanges

daytime 1's to Gotham are withdrawn on weekdays and run to Clifton only on weekends
3 on Sunday runs Ruddington to Clifton only
10 becomes an every 15 minutes all double deck service
48/48A drops to every 10 minutes to reflect a fall in usage since tram launched

Minor changes on 2, 3, 8, 15, 16, 28, 30, 39, 87, 88, and A2

On Sundays the 3 will run betweeen the City and Ruddington, its the Ruddington to Clifton section that will not be served.

 

[Steveoh]

NCT have a number of changes from 1st May http://nctx.co.uk/maychanges

daytime 1's to Gotham are withdrawn on weekdays and run to Clifton only on weekends
3 on Sunday runs Ruddington to Clifton only
10 becomes an every 15 minutes all double deck service
48/48A drops to every 10 minutes to reflect a fall in usage since tram launched

Minor changes on 2, 3, 8, 15, 16, 28, 30, 39, 87, 88, and A2

I see there's no reason given for the reduction in service of the 1. Does anybody know why this is? Is it the tram like the 48?

 

[Deerfold]

Quite a comedown for the 1 from when I remember it in the 90s with a bus every 15 minutes to Loughborough and a proper evening service until late.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Can't really see the tram impacting too much on the 1 unless Gotham & East Leake residents are choosing to drive to the Clifton P&R instead....

 

[kevjs]

I see there's no reason given for the reduction in service of the 1. Does anybody know why this is? Is it the tram like the 48?

The UniLink 4 runs the same route for most of the trip - presumably a bulk of it's daytime passengers are NTU students (especially as they are keeping the high weekend daytime frequency) - the Clifton Pastures end has probably been effected by the tram too - Gotham is a bit of a trek if not enough people are using it.

 

[Steveoh]

The UniLink 4 runs the same route for most of the trip - presumably a bulk of it's daytime passengers are NTU students (especially as they are keeping the high weekend daytime frequency) - the Clifton Pastures end has probably been effected by the tram too - Gotham is a bit of a trek if not enough people are using it.

In my experience at various times of the day, the services are fairly well loaded to Clifton pastures and there aren't many people left at Gotham. I'm often the last one off but then I am at the last stop. I always assumed it was extended to Gotham to change over drivers and as a convenient turning point. It's quite a dramatic reduction in service though. The through services to East Leake and Loughborough don't tend to have many on them after Clifton either.

Celebrating 90 years of South Notts by cutting the service..

 

[kevjs]

In my experience at various times of the day, the services are fairly well loaded to Clifton pastures and there aren't many people left at Gotham. I'm often the last one off but then I am at the last stop. I always assumed it was extended to Gotham to change over drivers and as a convenient turning point. It's quite a dramatic reduction in service though. The through services to East Leake and Loughborough don't tend to have many on them after Clifton either.

That may well be it - the last few times I've been past the Trent Bridge garage I've seen one or two South Notts buses inside that, wonder if the daytimes being operated out of that now?

Celebrating 90 years of South Notts by cutting the service..

Not the best timing is it?

 

[MCR247]

That may well be it - the last few times I've been past the Trent Bridge garage I've seen one or two South Notts buses inside that, wonder if the daytimes being operated out of that now?

No the 1 is definitely staying at Gotham, no double deckers are based at Trent Bridge. Two buses (I assume two silver omnidekkas, but one maybe navy) will be returning to Parliament Street garage as a result, for the 10.

The long E200s on the 10 atm will go to the 15/16 to displace a few smaller ones, although some will remain as I understand. I wonder if the 2 blue long E200s will also go brown, with the 40 gets smaller ones, as it never looks that busy

 

[edwin_m]

Are NCT still opening a new garage in Carlton somewhere that would replace all their existing ones?

 

[SCH117X]

In my experience at various times of the day, the services are fairly well loaded to Clifton pastures and there aren't many people left at Gotham. I'm often the last one off but then I am at the last stop. I always assumed it was extended to Gotham to change over drivers and as a convenient turning point. It's quite a dramatic rjeduction in service though. The through services to East Leake and Loughborough don't tend to have many on them after Clifton either.

Celebrating 90 years of South Notts by cutting the service..

The service is as good or better than South Notts offered most of the day, it was half hourly to Clifton with some extensions to Gotham and hourly to Loughborough. The 15 minute interval service arose from using exactly the same resources as South Notts had but spread apart instead of the 2, 3 or 4 duplicating vehicles which many journeys had for all or part of their length but that was axed some time back.

The Gotham shorts arose from retimetabling the Loughboroughs which meant a vehicle arriving in Nottingham had around 20 mins to spare, hence the short workings were fitted in to reduce that vehicle waits in Nottingham albeit obviously with increased vehicle requirements.

Driver, and vehicle changes, have always taken place at Gotham regardless of the services destination - there is a great video, I think on the DVD that was produced a few years, of a couple of Fleetlines swopping duty on a Loughbrough wth them door to door transferring passengers without them having to walk on the ground.

Gotham based vehicles will be seen at Trent Bridge as that as the main engineering depot.

 

[Mr Manager]

I wonder when the rumour mill will start as to who is the Eastern area Bus company for sale in the latest Bus and Coach buyer Magazine .

 

[MCR247]

Are NCT still opening a new garage in Carlton somewhere that would replace all their existing ones?

Gone very quiet recently

 

[Steveoh]

The service is as good or better than South Notts offered most of the day, it was half hourly to Clifton with some extensions to Gotham and hourly to Loughborough. The 15 minute interval service arose from using exactly the same resources as South Notts had but spread apart instead of the 2, 3 or 4 duplicating vehicles which many journeys had for all or part of their length but that was axed some time back.

Gotham based vehicles will be seen at Trent Bridge as that as the main engineering depot.

I can remember it being every 15 minutes under South Notts before NCT took South Notts over. That was when Kinch tried to muscle in on the service. It was mostly every half hour along the whole route before and after that. It was never only 1/2 hourly to Clifton.

 

[ivanhoe]

I can remember it being every 15 minutes under South Notts before NCT took South Notts over. That was when Kinch tried to muscle in on the service. It was mostly every half hour along the whole route before and after that. It was never only 1/2 hourly to Clifton.

There was always competition from Midland Fox and its successor company Arriva mainly along A60 only. Arriva pulled away from the route and then Premier Travel tried and failed. Kinch have built up a good route along the A60 and if you were going to Nottingham, then you would travel by Kinch because it is quicker.

 

[SCH117X]

99% certain the 15 minute interval regular service all the way to Loughborough was definately South Notts under NCT ownership, ie post March 1991; all references I have seen indicate that to be the case. EDIT such as http://www.freewebs.com/southnotts/mainroad.html
Remember the service in the early to mid 1980s very well, the hourly departure from Nottingham was usually a short working, and the Loughborough was on the half hour accompanied by a short or two. The 3pm did go to Loughborough,a rare working as it had no duplicate and the 4pm a pair of Loughboroughs. After 4.30 there was a short period of 15 minute interval over part of the route before reverting back to the half hourly shorts and hourly Loughboroughs.

Edit: Have found reference to an unspecified improvement to the frequency in Sept 1990; at the same time the Clifton Estate 67 was withdrawn and replaced by a 10 running direct to terminus pass Clifton College, at a guess the 1 & 10 together gave the 15 min interval on that section. Have to say I never recovered from the shock of one man operation, it seemed very strange and ironic given they had been upheld of an example of a good operator when the 1986 Act was passed; low fares and conductors.

 

[WillPS]

There was always competition from Midland Fox and its successor company Arriva mainly along A60 only. Arriva pulled away from the route and then Premier Travel tried and failed. Kinch have built up a good route along the A60 and if you were going to Nottingham, then you would travel by Kinch because it is quicker.

Um, not quite - the 99/X99/Red9 was Premier's big success, and bankrolled a number of other less successful ventures. Wellglade tried and failed to duplicate that success using the Kinch brand while Premier.

Premier's failure wasn't to do with the route, and it's telling that Wellglade jumped straight on it after Premier failed.