Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Bletchleyite]

What if the person is blocking the door as the next staffed station is 2 hours away ?

Precisely which routes that are genuine candidates for DOO have 2 hours between staffed stations? (A stop order could be used if necessary)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Appalling attitude. It's the TOC's responsibility. You're the TOC's representative. Therefore it's your job if there's no other staff to help.

Nope, that's not how it works.

The TOC have a responsibility to take all reasonable steps to enable disabled passengers to use their services. But that doesn't mean it becomes the responsibility of a specific member of staff if it isn't their job and they haven't had the appropriate training.

If the TOC choose to sack the members of staff whose job it is, and who have had the appropriate training, then that's something disabled passengers should take up with the TOC and/or their MP.

Of course, I can't imagine Charles Horton gives a stuff.

 

[carriageline]

And when was the last time before that that something like that happened while deploying a disabled ramp (not while going on the track, the risks are different).

So you chose to ignore all the other good arguments against what you suggest?

As usual, can talk the talk, but seriously can't walk the walk.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Whatever alternative is used, I hope rather than keyboard experts who have no real experience, do trial the system with disabled folks before implimenting it first to test it out.

 

[trentside]

Whatever alternative is used, I hope rather than keyboard experts who have no real experience, do trial the system with disabled folks before implimenting it first to test it out.

For the sake of disabled customers, I sincerely hope that a common sense approach has been developed.

I'm going to refrain from commenting further as I don't wish to be drawn into the debate. While this may be strange given my avatar, I'm trying to keep my blood pressure down and certain posters are doing their best to raise it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

So you chose to ignore all the other good arguments against what you suggest?

As usual, can talk the talk, but seriously can't walk the walk.

It's ok. They can get a free taxi back if the driver remembers to request one with all his other duties to do!

Surely expecting the passenger to have to travel beyond their destination in order to wait for a taxi back to where they wanted to be because measures were chosen not to be put in place or were removed "to provide a more efficient service" is effectively discriminatory in itself? You're practically advocating an able bodied timetable and a hidden disabled timetable. I appreciate there are issues with certain stations and that's fine. But to knowingly advocate changes to the detriment of a section of society is wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you chose to ignore all the other good arguments against what you suggest?

I was responding to a specific point; of course in doing so my post responds only to that post and not to any others.

 

[DarloRich]

Much of it still comes down to change management. Without wishing to disclose too much and I'm sure I'll probably be met with at best derision and at worst disbelief, I've got more experience in what these managers are (trying) to do than most, I wasn't always a railwayman.

They have failed to promote the changes in any sort of positive sense except superficially (it's apparently good for customer service but there's no guarantee your customer focussed member of staff will actually be present anymore). Having been met with resistance instead of reassuring the staff, they've gone nuclear with them. That letter has shocked pretty much everyone in the industry. Stagecoach have sued the unions before but they never took that heavy direct line with the staff - yes they made it clear that there would be consequences but withdrawal of car parking permits is just another level. I've been stood in a room in front of rounds of 30 staff a time giving them bad news about restructuring and had all sorts of grief but still looked after them.

There's been no consultation with the staff on the ground. Even if you know full well it's a sham and a foregone conclusion (first dirty trick in the book) you still at least pretend to seek views and hear concerns. Saying 'we are going to do this, whatever you do is irrelevant and by the way, we are also going to make you redundant, break your service, reemploy you on significantly less favourable terms (the loss of Hidden rights on working time being particularly striking) and if you express your displeasure as the law allows we are taking all your fringe benefits off you as well, is just declaring war on people you claim to value.

There's also been no honest explanation of the rationale behind the changes. Vague mentions of modernising and 'putting the customer at the heart of everything' mean nothing.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the DOO issue at hand the management have handled it appallingly.

That is appalling yet worryingly familiar. I also assume that V/S wont be on the table either?

 

[infobleep]

Maybe they will but the damage will take years to repair and I doubt the public will tolerate years of delays and cancellations due to it

The public won't have a choice other than not travel and I can't see that happening.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

Having thought about GTR's attitude, am I putting 2 plus 2 together and making 5 if I suggest that GTR have been told that DfT will compensate them for the costs of any strike action?

 

[Dave1987]

Having thought about GTR's attitude, am I putting 2 plus 2 together and making 5 if I suggest that GTR have been told that DfT will compensate them for the costs of any strike action?

Judging by the comments by the MP for Croydon and the DFT's Peter Wilkinson I don't think that would be a bad guess. Even though the DFT forced them to revoke the comments and apologise it shows the way some of the powers that be are thinking.

 

[PakRail]

This all clearly about saving money and milking the customers. I am sure the plan is to eventually replace all staff contracts with zero hours and very less favourable terms. At the moment there are zero hour agency staff that work for the TOCs as platform and gateline staff. These can now be trained to do the new OBS role as this is not safety critical and will weaken the power of the union and any future strike action.

Even though paying for agency staff is more expensive than ordinary staff this does not mean that any future employees won't be given zero hour contracts on a model that is similar to the agency. Thus giving more power to the company and less to the unions and employees.

 

[po8crg]

One thing RMT should do is check which parties are having their conference in Brighton this year and make sure there's a strike to disrupt travel to and from Brighton at the beginning and end of the conference.



That would force lots of journalists to pay attention to the strike.

 

[bnm]

One thing RMT should do is check which parties are having their conference in Brighton this year and make sure there's a strike to disrupt travel to and from Brighton at the beginning and end of the conference.

That would force lots of journalists to pay attention to the strike.

Liberal Democrats. Frankly, the journalists will probably be glad for an excuse not to go.

 

[northwichcat]

That would force lots of journalists to pay attention to the strike.

If London's affected journalists pay a lot of attention. The Daily Mail and the like have done hundreds of pointless stories about London TOCs but wouldn't do the same about Merseyrail, Metrolink or Tyne & Wear Metro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If London's affected journalists pay a lot of attention. The Daily Mail and the like have done hundreds of pointless stories about London TOCs but wouldn't do the same about Merseyrail, Metrolink or Tyne & Wear Metro.

Though for years the Liverpool Echo have loved a good Merseyrail ("Miseryfail") scandal.

 

[455driver]

Judging by the comments by the MP for Croydon and the DFT's Peter Wilkinson I don't think that would be a bad guess. Even though the DFT forced them to revoke the comments and apologise it shows the way some of the powers that be are thinking.

When did Wilkinson revoke his comments?
He apologised but I dont think he revoked anything, he certainly didnt correct any of it!

 

[hwl]

Having thought about GTR's attitude, am I putting 2 plus 2 together and making 5 if I suggest that GTR have been told that DfT will compensate them for the costs of any strike action?

No you'll get 4. It's a management contract, DfT will have approved potential strike costs month ago probably late last year give the average pace anything is approved at. (Especially given the timing of Peter W's comments)

 

[Starmill]

No you'll get 4. It's a management contract, DfT will have approved potential strike costs month ago probably late last year give the average pace anything is approved at. (Especially given the timing of Peter W's comments)

It all seems to give a gruesome new meaning to what we thought at the time was just someone losing their temper. It seems all very much planned. How vile.

 

[Dave1987]

When did Wilkinson revoke his comments?
He apologised but I dont think he revoked anything, he certainly didnt correct any of it!

Indeed you are correct! He only apologised for any offence he caused, in a very carefully worded statement, 'released on his behalf'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something I would like to throw into the ring. GTR have admitted that they are getting rid of guards so during disruption they can run with just a driver. Now taking away all the corporate nonsense about 'better customer service', as I driver I would say the one time you most want a guard on board your train is during disruption. I forget how many times I've read on Social Media comments from passengers about how there is little info coming from the driver. During disruption as a driver my focus is not on making announcements to passengers, you make them as and when you can but its not the main priority. Unless there are general calls going out on the GSMR half the time I have no clue what is going on because we are not allowed our phones turned on whilst driving. A guard is able to access all the information streams from control and pass them onto passengers. And before people start saying about passengers on Twitter and the updates that gives, I've heard many passengers say that it's ridiculous that at times passengers know more about what's going on that the driver does and that they shouldn't have to rely on Twitter for their information. The time when this OBS role is most likely to be binned off (i.e disruption) is the one time when it is most likely to be the most use.

I realise it got buried in multiple pages of valid posts on the consequences of disabled access to trains of DOO but any response to my post quoted above from the pro DOO ppl?

 

[Antman]

Indeed you are correct! He only apologised for any offence he caused, in a very carefully worded statement, 'released on his behalf'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I realise it got buried in multiple pages of valid posts on the consequences of disabled access to trains of DOO but any response to my post quoted above from the pro DOO ppl?

Drivers on LU normally make announcements when there is any delay informing passengers what's happening.

 

[Dave1987]

Drivers on LU normally make announcements when there is any delay informing passengers what's happening.

Well two points on that. Firstly comparing LU with the national rail network is like comparing Apples and Oranges, secondly I've only ever heard announcements made when they are at a stand being held at a red signal, which is also one of the times I make announcements unless I'm being given instructions by the signaller.

 

[bnm]

These suggestions that the DfT are covering GTR's strike costs. Any proof? It would seem a very unusual thing to write into a franchise contract. Even one that is of a management type.

As far as I'm aware the DfT take the risk on revenue only for the TSGN franchise. Costs to the business and associated risks are with GTR. So lose, lose for both of them. DfT's revenue stream is affected by the strike, and GTR incurs the costs of managing the strike.

No wonder GTR are looking to claw bake some of those costs by withdrawing staff perks. I agree that this is a petty thing to do, but it doesn't alter my opinion that the industrial action won't end favourably for the unions and their members.

 

[SPADTrap]

Drivers doing ramp assists? Tell me I've misunderstood. Even for a DOO thread that is a stretch. How counter intuitive. What a service you strive for! Sounds like desperate clutching at straws to me.

 

[Domeyhead]

I believe all passengers appreciate the presence of a conductor/guard/ticket inspector/"train manager" etc somewhere on the train and I don't particularly care whether his duties include opening or closing the doors In fact if it allowed him to perform continuous passenger assistance more effectively then so much the better. So if DOO did not involve any redundancies and included assurances that all trains would retain a minimum of two staff with one in the passenger area at all times I'd be in favour of it. What are Southern proposing?

 

[Mike395]

I believe all passengers appreciate the presence of a conductor/guard/ticket inspector/"train manager" etc somewhere on the train and I don't particularly care whether his duties include opening or closing the doors In fact if it allowed him to perform continuous passenger assistance more effectively then so much the better. So if DOO did not involve any redundancies and included assurances that all trains would retain a minimum of two staff with one in the passenger area at all times I'd be in favour of it. What are Southern proposing?

I agree, unfortunately the noises GTR are making is a move towards a service where those two staff members are not guaranteed.

I would have no issue with a SE High Speed-style On Board Manager, who essentially retains some safety critical responsibilities - crucially a train cannot run without one but doors are driver controlled.

 

[speedy_sticks]

I have just spoken with a gentleman in charge for assistance on Southern trains.

Obviously a very busy man at the moment. Couldn't confirm much, but said he wouldn't leave me on the platform. Which ironically would be the case if there wasn't a guard. But my main problem is not being able to get off the train!

 

[tony6499]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been an injunction by Southern from the courts stopping the strike, either the RMT ballot was water tight or they don't want one and want the strike to proceed

 

[HLE]

Indeed you are correct! He only apologised for any offence he caused, in a very carefully worded statement, 'released on his behalf'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I realise it got buried in multiple pages of valid posts on the consequences of disabled access to trains of DOO but any response to my post quoted above from the pro DOO ppl?

Did you realistically expect one? Fully agree/support with what you posted - and I daresay even some of the 'pro DOO' brigade on this thread do.

 

[6Gman]

Drivers doing ramp assists? Tell me I've misunderstood. Even for a DOO thread that is a stretch. How counter intuitive. What a service you strive for! Sounds like desperate clutching at straws to me.

Quite.

And why stop there?

Perhaps drivers could issue fares to waiting passengers at unstaffed stations? After all, by definition they will be relatively lightly-used stations.

And if they're running early they could get a broom out and sweep the platform.

Stopped at a red? Get a cloth and give the lenses a wipe!