Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[najaB]

I think it helps because the Bus fare from the ferry is more than the rail fare (£1.50 single vs £1.65).

The fact that the recent timetable update means that the Ferry actually gets a semi-decent service now has made a difference.

 

[clc]

Would anyone care to speculate on what electrification schemes the Industry Plan due in September will recommend for delivery in CP6?

We know Fife Circle appears to have fallen down the queue so the most likely candidates seem to be:-

Dunblane-Perth
Perth-Dundee
East Kilbride
Barrhead
Kilmarnock
Anniesland via Maryhill
City Union Line

However these wouldn't add up to anything like 500 single track kilometres, which the Scottish Government's rolling programme of electrification would be expected to deliver over 5 years.

Any thoughts?

 

[Carntyne]

I don't think the Maryhill line will be wired any time too, same with the City Union line.

EK needs it, that plus second EK platform & redoubling Busby will be the one to go for.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Would anyone care to speculate on what electrification schemes the Industry Plan due in September will recommend for delivery in CP6?

We know Fife Circle appears to have fallen down the queue so the most likely candidates seem to be:-

Dunblane-Perth
Perth-Dundee
East Kilbride
Barrhead
Kilmarnock
Anniesland via Maryhill
City Union Line

However these wouldn't add up to anything like 500 single track kilometres, which the Scottish Government's rolling programme of electrification would be expected to deliver over 5 years.

Any thoughts?

There's probably too much in the way of enabling works and other remodelling work needed to afford much more in the way of electrification track mileage, particularly if there's an effort to finish redoubling Barrhead to Kilmarnock prior to electrification.

There's probably a few other odds and sodds, things like Kilmarnock to Ayr, which could be undertaken at the same time when the design, feeding and resilience works are undertaken.

 

[Altnabreac]

Would anyone care to speculate on what electrification schemes the Industry Plan due in September will recommend for delivery in CP6?

We know Fife Circle appears to have fallen down the queue so the most likely candidates seem to be:-

Dunblane-Perth
Perth-Dundee
East Kilbride
Barrhead
Kilmarnock
Anniesland via Maryhill
City Union Line

However these wouldn't add up to anything like 500 single track kilometres, which the Scottish Government's rolling programme of electrification would be expected to deliver over 5 years.

Any thoughts?

That sounds about right although I suspect the City Union Line won't be included.

I wonder if Kilmarnock might drop behind Dundee - Aberdeen? The political benefits of early wiring to the North East might be tempting.

Agree that Barassie - Killie will be done at same time as Barrhead - Killie.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

That sounds about right although I suspect the City Union Line won't be included.

I wonder if Kilmarnock might drop behind Dundee - Aberdeen? The political benefits of early wiring to the North East might be tempting.

Agree that Barassie - Killie will be done at same time as Barrhead - Killie.

Surely from an operational perspective it makes more sense to wire the Glasgow suburban and local routes out to Kilmarnock and operate those with a follow on order of 385's, before pushing on to Dundee and Aberdeen, especially as refurbished HST's will be operating Glasgow - Aberdeen in a few years time.

 

[Altnabreac]

Surely from an operational perspective it makes more sense to wire the Glasgow suburban and local routes out to Kilmarnock and operate those with a follow on order of 385's, before pushing on to Dundee and Aberdeen, especially as refurbished HST's will be operating Glasgow - Aberdeen in a few years time.

Glasgow Suburban routes definitely make sense out to Barrhead and Maryhill. Problem with Kilmarnock is half the services extend to Cumnock, Dumfries or Stranraer none of which are getting wired anytime soon. That undermines the case for wiring Killie as will only be running 1tph or so EMU.

Also Barrhead to Kilmarnock is potentially worth fully redoubling and it makes sense to do this alongside electrification work. However there may not be funds or demand to do that work in CP6 so it might be better to postpone all of it until CP7.

Meanwhile the HSTs are leased for Intercity work until 2025 but at that point they'll be getting on for 45-50 years old so will need planning for replacement not long after that.

Dunblane - Dundee is being wired with only 1tph EMU service initially on the semi fast. Dundee - Aberdeen will be gaining a 1tph local service to be operated by 170s during CP6 so you can wire to Aberdeen for exactly the same benefit as Kilmarnock or Dundee. Indeed slightly better as presumably the bi mode IEPs could switch back to electric mode north of Dundee.

You can then wire Fife early in CP7 and all Aberdeen services can switch from HSTs to a new electric service in the late 2020s.

So there are a lot of potential benefits to postponing Kilmarnock electrification. I'd still like to see it done soon but it is less strategically useful than Dundee and Aberdeen.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't think the Maryhill line will be wired any time too, same with the City Union line.

EK needs it, that plus second EK platform & redoubling Busby will be the one to go for.

From the Scotland Route Study:

North Suburban Electrification

Purpose
To allow trains operating on Northern Suburban line from Queen Street High Level to have comparable performance characteristics and consistent train formations with other services using this terminal station. This offers opportunities to construct a more efficient timetable to further optimise platform occupancy and rolling stock utilisation and provide more resilient performance.
It also provides an electrified diversionary route for Glasgow Queen Street services to the low level platforms via Partick and Springburn.

Technical Description
This option proposes approximately five miles of electrification of the Maryhill line from Cowlairs junctions to Westerton junction including the Anniesland single line.

Indicative Costs
££ (£50m-£100m)

Strategic Link
This option contributes to making best use of Queen Street High Level, and minimising the scope and costs of future work to improve Queen Street Tunnel capacity and the number / length of platforms in the station.

Prioritisation Assessment
Funder aspiration as part of the Strategic Transport Projects Review Rolling Programme of Electrification.

At the moment, Anniesland services can be run by any ScotRail train into Queen Street. When platform space is at a premium, any train can be sent out to Anniesland and it'll be back in time to make up another service later on. When the majority of the suburban services are run by electric trains, and the HSTs will be running the long distance trains, there won't be many services which can be diagrammed to do the Anniesland turn. It's a not-dissimilar story to the Paisley Canal line, as around a third of the distance will already be electrified and running a marooned suburban DMU on it is quite inefficient.

 

[Class 170101]

Glasgow Suburban routes definitely make sense out to Barrhead and Maryhill. Problem with Kilmarnock is half the services extend to Cumnock, Dumfries or Stranraer none of which are getting wired anytime soon. That undermines the case for wiring Killie as will only be running 1tph or so EMU.

Bi Mode trains for Cumnock, Stranraer and Dumfries? More than 1tph using the wires therefore.

Additionally I doubt wiring Maryhil would require a feeder station for its electrification so could be considered infill - same with the City Union. I think its been mentioned that feeder stations tend to be the expensive bit when it comes to electrification.

 

[marks87]

I wonder if Kilmarnock might drop behind Dundee - Aberdeen? The political benefits of early wiring to the North East might be tempting.

Won't Dundee-Aberdeen wait until after the doubling of Usan-Montrose?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Surely from an operational perspective it makes more sense to wire the Glasgow suburban and local routes out to Kilmarnock and operate those with a follow on order of 385's, before pushing on to Dundee and Aberdeen, especially as refurbished HST's will be operating Glasgow - Aberdeen in a few years time.

It's possible to do both sets of routes at the same time though, there's Shotts Line electrification ongoing at the same time as the core EGIP works, the only thing one needs to do is stagger the use of specific assets.

There's a new Dundee to Glasgow self contained service in the latest group of planned services, which would be ideal for Class 385 or similar operation.

The end to end projects are all done, now comes the stretch projects - reach intermediate destinations, staging posts almost, that make sense for a control period or two, but keep going to your ultimate goal. Bi-mode units make such staging posts less of a problem, as long as your EMU fleet can work round such plans.

 

[clc]

Won't Dundee-Aberdeen wait until after the doubling of Usan-Montrose?

The timescale for doubling Usan-Montrose is 5-10 years so in theory it could happen in CP6 with electrification proceeding at the same time.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The timescale for doubling Usan-Montrose is 5-10 years so in theory it could happen in CP6 with electrification proceeding at the same time.

The new viaduct would be built ready for masts, the new track could well be piled ready for masts during construction too. It saves a few quid in not having to use possessions and use rail piling equipment.

 

[Altnabreac]

Bi Mode trains for Cumnock, Stranraer and Dumfries? More than 1tph using the wires therefore.

Additionally I doubt wiring Maryhil would require a feeder station for its electrification so could be considered infill - same with the City Union. I think its been mentioned that feeder stations tend to be the expensive bit when it comes to electrification.

Doubt it. Bi-mode might arrive at some point but at the moment the only bi-mode train in the UK is a 5 coach Intercity train that seats 300 people. That's not exactly the ideal spec for Dumfries or Stranraer.

Equally the rolling stock strategy for Scotrail is pretty much fixed until 2025. If a bit more wiring happens then I'm sure they can order a few more AT200s but I doubt Abellio will be keen on taking on a whole new train class purely to serve rural Ayrshire.

I'd think it more likely that the post 2025 Scotrail franchise might take on bi-modes but probably to serve Inverness once HSTs need withdrawn after 2025.

With regards the Ayrshire trains I think it's more likely that Stranraer trains get cut back at Ayr and an Ayr - Kilmarnock - Glasgow service runs as an EMU.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Doubt it. Bi-mode might arrive at some point but at the moment the only bi-mode train in the UK is a 5 coach Intercity train that seats 300 people. That's not exactly the ideal spec for Dumfries or Stranraer.

Equally the rolling stock strategy for Scotrail is pretty much fixed until 2025. If a bit more wiring happens then I'm sure they can order a few more AT200s but I doubt Abellio will be keen on taking on a whole new train class purely to serve rural Ayrshire.

I'd think it more likely that the post 2025 Scotrail franchise might take on bi-modes but probably to serve Inverness once HSTs need withdrawn after 2025.

With regards the Ayrshire trains I think it's more likely that Stranraer trains get cut back at Ayr and an Ayr - Kilmarnock - Glasgow service runs as an EMU.

I am surprised that HSTs would start to be withdrawn so soon after 2025. I thought that to get a decent return on the cost of modifying them to make them DDA compliant they would be in service on Scotrail for another 10 to 15 years,* so would start to be withdrawn around 2028-2033 which is when the wires were originally going to reach Aberdeen at the end of CP8.

*There should be plenty of spare parts knocking around in a few years as no other franchise has proposed retaining HST post 2020 (any EMT sets post 2020 will still be gone by 2023).

 

[Altnabreac]

I am surprised that HSTs would start to be withdrawn so soon after 2025. I thought that to get a decent return on the cost of modifying them to make them DDA compliant they would be in service on Scotrail for another 10 to 15 years,* so would start to be withdrawn around 2028-2033 which is when the wires were originally going to reach Aberdeen at the end of CP8.

*There should be plenty of spare parts knocking around in a few years as no other franchise has proposed retaining HST post 2020 (any EMT sets post 2020 will still be gone by 2023).

Agree entirely with that 10-15 year timescale for usage of HSTs in Scotland.

2028 is a reasonable timescale to get wires to Aberdeen but Perth - Inverness and Aberdeen - Inverness might be tricky to complete by 2033 so bi-modes may still be required here. More likely than on Dumfries services I suspect.

Equally if they can keep the HSTs going until the wires reach Inverness then it's ideal to move straight to an electric Intercity product.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The spare parts argument is a bit of a fallacy - yes, there's going to be more motors and bogies, alternators, compressors and other bits floating around, but they all still need to be refurbished or overhauled, certified for use and tested, that all costs money and it all needs competent, certified people to undertake the work.

I'd guess by 2030-2035, it'll be pretty difficult to keep HST power cars running, in a similar vain to the difficulties operators have in keeping Class 37 and Class 47 locomotives running - all do-able, but long lead times on parts and work, which could start to keep stock out of service for lengthy periods.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Agree entirely with that 10-15 year timescale for usage of HSTs in Scotland.

2028 is a reasonable timescale to get wires to Aberdeen but Perth - Inverness and Aberdeen - Inverness might be tricky to complete by 2033 so bi-modes may still be required here. More likely than on Dumfries services I suspect.

Equally if they can keep the HSTs going until the wires reach Inverness then it's ideal to move straight to an electric Intercity product.

Agreed not all the Scotrail intercity services will be electric before the HSTs need to be withdrawn. It probably would have been simpler from a rolling stock perspective if Albellio had simply ordered some Bi-mode AT-300s for the Scotrail Intercity services, they could have taken advantage of the spread of electrification over the 20-30 year period need to electrify Glasgow/Edinburgh to Perth/Dundee, Perth and Dundee to Aberdeen, Perth to Inverness and Aberdeen to Inverness.

As for services to Dumfries and Stranraer something will have to replace the 156's in the next franchise, although 170's could be cascade from the Fife circle once that is electrified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The spare parts argument is a bit of a fallacy - yes, there's going to be more motors and bogies, alternators, compressors and other bits floating around, but they all still need to be refurbished or overhauled, certified for use and tested, that all costs money and it all needs competent, certified people to undertake the work.

I'd guess by 2030-2035, it'll be pretty difficult to keep HST power cars running, in a similar vain to the difficulties operators have in keeping Class 37 and Class 47 locomotives running - all do-able, but long lead times on parts and work, which could start to keep stock out of service for lengthy periods.

Good point thanks

 

[Argosy]

Bi Mode trains for Cumnock, Stranraer and Dumfries? More than 1tph using the wires therefore.

Additionally I doubt wiring Maryhil would require a feeder station for its electrification so could be considered infill - same with the City Union. I think its been mentioned that feeder stations tend to be the expensive bit when it comes to electrification.

Bi-mode would make so much sense and offer huge journey opportunities. The only problem is that in the UK it is still untried technology (though has been used in France for ages) that it is probably a bit too soon.

Bi-mode would save a lot of unnecessary electrification at less cost and reliability of some electrification schemes and still give flexibility.

 

[najaB]

Bi-mode would make so much sense and offer huge journey opportunities. The only problem is that in the UK it is still untried technology (though has been used in France for ages) that it is probably a bit too soon.

Given that bi-modes are already in testing for use on UK mainlines, I don't think it's "too soon".

 

[HSTEd]

Ideally Sprinter/Pacer replacements would all be a mechanically uniform of bi-mode units that can all interwork and all have the same spares and maintenance procedures.

But we all know that won't happen.

 

[Mordac]

The spare parts argument is a bit of a fallacy - yes, there's going to be more motors and bogies, alternators, compressors and other bits floating around, but they all still need to be refurbished or overhauled, certified for use and tested, that all costs money and it all needs competent, certified people to undertake the work.

I'd guess by 2030-2035, it'll be pretty difficult to keep HST power cars running, in a similar vain to the difficulties operators have in keeping Class 37 and Class 47 locomotives running - all do-able, but long lead times on parts and work, which could start to keep stock out of service for lengthy periods.

How feasible would it be to keep the refurbished coaches and run them with different locos?

 

[gsnedders]

How feasible would it be to keep the refurbished coaches and run them with different locos?

They'd presumably need converted to 1000V DC power supply, given they're currently all using the HST-only 415V AC supply. It's doable, but whether it's economically worthwhile relative to new-build stock is a separate question…

 

[najaB]

They'd presumably need converted to 1000V DC power supply, given they're currently all using the HST-only 415V AC supply. It's doable, but whether it's economically worthwhile relative to new-build stock is a separate question…

Alternatively, equip locos with the gubbins to supply 450VAC from their 1000VDC generators.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Alternatively, equip locos with the gubbins to supply 450VAC from their 1000VDC generators.

It's not a small or easy fix, given the current draw that's involved. The easiest option is fitting a generator engine and alternator into a DVT, as per the Chiltern operation (Western region loco hauled HST stock in the olden days used a generator van, btw).

 

[najaB]

It's not a small or easy fix, given the current draw that's involved. The easiest option is fitting a generator engine and alternator into a DVT, as per the Chiltern operation (Western region loco hauled HST stock in the olden days used a generator van, btw).

What kind of amperage are we talking? Solid-state inverters have come along leaps and bounds in the last 20 years due to the boom in solar power.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What kind of amperage are we talking? Solid-state inverters have come along leaps and bounds in the last 20 years due to the boom in solar power.

415V 500kW equates to around 1200A, 1000V 500kW is 500A, and it needs to be three phased AC too. You wouldn't normally need 500kW but that's the ETS arrangements for something like a Class 68, and does leave the option open for lengthy formations during a rescue etc.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Philip Phlopp, very off-topic I know, but do you have a Twitter account/blog/similar on which you post? You are clearly very knowledgeable about railway matters and I would love to learn more about these sort of topics

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Philip Phlopp, very off-topic I know, but do you have a Twitter account/blog/similar on which you post? You are clearly very knowledgeable about railway matters and I would love to learn more about these sort of topics

I don't, and other than the odd post here, I don't have the time for anything more than answering the odd question and pointing people in the right direction.

 

[najaB]

415V 500kW equates to around 1200A, 1000V 500kW is 500A, and it needs to be three phased AC too.

That kind of power level isn't far off what you can do with off-the-shelf technology.

I'm no electrical engineer (as you can tell!) but it sounds like it might not be quite as an expensive or extensive proposition as it would have been ten or even five years ago.