Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Mordac]

Horse's mouth is the franchise agreement:
http://www.transport.gov.scot/syste...Redacted Franchise Agreement - CU version.pdf

The rolling stock table on Page 21 shows that of the 16 Class 314s only 3 will still be on lease in December 2018 with all 3 gone by December 2019.

Now of course this only confirms that Scotrail won't be using them after that point, not a guarantee that they will be scrapped. But given their age, and the work needed for TSI compliance it seems unlikely anyone else will take them on except possibly for a short term lease in 2018/19.

Thanks! The odd thing is that I'd looked at that table before, but I was focused on the DMU movements and completely missed that!

I guess I better try them out before they go. What services do they usually operate ATM?

 

[Altnabreac]

Thanks! The odd thing is that I'd looked at that table before, but I was focused on the DMU movements and completely missed that!

I guess I better try them out before they go. What services do they usually operate ATM?

Neilston, Newton and Cathcart Circle mainly. I think they do one or two diagrams to Gourock and Paisley Canal as well.

I'd recommend the Neilston line. It has some nice scenery as you get out to the reservoirs by Barrhead.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I passed under the M80 (A80 when I last passed that way) Bonnybridge viaduct yesterday on a brief visit to Comrie owin to a family berievement.

The gantries were up on the viaduct and OHLE supports appeared to be up on the adjoining stretches. No piccies as I was driving.

it was my first time for a wee bitty and the first time I had seen the wires up on the M77 bridge.

Yesterday was the first day I even knew that there was an M77!

Castlecary Viaduct!

There's been a few pictures of Castlecary electrification work here:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/locationnew.php?loc=Castlecary Viaduct

(most of them anyway).

 

[snowball]

I thought Castlecary viaduct was listed but I see unlike at Sankey they haven't been able to avoid fixing the portals to the outside of the viaduct. Perhaps the viaduct is narrower than Sankey.

 

[jopsuk]

It is listed (who knew it was called the Red Burn Viaduct?).

But listing doesn't mean a total ban on alterations. It just means you have to minimise impact and have a very good justification for the changes.

this site should be a comprehensive source for listed structures

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Bonus points available if anybody has noticed the OLE system on Castlecary Viaduct.

 

[snowball]

But listing doesn't mean a total ban on alterations. It just means you have to minimise impact and have a very good justification for the changes.

I didn't imagine it did. I was merely noting that this viaduct was treated differently from another listed, recently electrified viaduct at Sankey.

Bonus points available if anybody has noticed the OLE system on Castlecary Viaduct.

I'm not good at recognising them from pictures but EGIP is supposed to be Series 2, isn't it, like the lines in the NW programme?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'm not good at recognising them from pictures but EGIP is supposed to be Series 2, isn't it, like the lines in the NW programme?

EGIP and the more recent electrification projects have used Series 2, but Castlecary is being electrified using Series 1. I believe it's just the wire run over the viaduct, so it can be more highly tensioned to resist high winds.

 

[QueensCurve]

Castlecary Viaduct!

I stand corrected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you perhaps mean M73? The M77 goes south-west from Glasgow (to Kilmarnock, on the way to Ayr) and I don't think it goes under any railways. The M73 runs north-south, passing east of Glasgow, and links the M74, M8/A8, and M80.

Sorry, slip of the finger. I meant M73.

 

[QueensCurve]

See if you can judge from this picture I took, it could be a little tight:

I have just dug out my copy of the Tay Bridge Centerary booklet from 1987 it says:-

There is plenty of clearance for overhead lines on the Bridge.

That of course predates TSI, but perhaps there is scope for a derrogation.

 

[marks87]

I think the biggest challenge for the Tay Bridge is its location. The recent restoration project won an award because it was a logistical nightmare - and that was "only" replacing rivets and scraping bird droppings off.

Installing OHLE structures will be a huge challenge.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think the biggest challenge for the Tay Bridge is its location. The recent restoration project won an award because it was a logistical nightmare - and that was "only" replacing rivets and scraping bird droppings off.

Installing OHLE structures will be a huge challenge.

OLE installation on the Tay Bridge will be easy, manufacture the portal brackets off-site and weld/bolt them to the bridge during routine possession activity, portals (which would need to be bespoke) to be fabricated and assembled off site, and I'd use either a barge on the river, or a helicopter from the airport to lift them into position.

The SPS and wiring is done using RRVs, the high girder section only needs mounting brackets for the rigid conductor.

It's all simple compared with bird droppings.

 

[170401]

It is listed (who knew it was called the Red Burn Viaduct?).

this site should be a comprehensive source for listed structures

Haven't heard it go by that name in a long time! Named after the Red burn of course that flows beneath it on the West side. The Red burn itself is sourced near Cumbernauld station from the Glencryan burn and follows the Perth lines through to Castlecary before joining the Bonny water just beyond the viaduct.

 

[snowball]

OLE installation on the Tay Bridge will be easy

Have you looked at the dimensions of the Forth Bridge? It's been suggested that there would be a problem of clearance between the diagonal girders and the ends of a passing pantograph.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Have you looked at the dimensions of the Forth Bridge? It's been suggested that there would be a problem of clearance between the diagonal girders and the ends of a passing pantograph.

There isn't a show stopping issue in getting electrification over the bridge, though it will be a complicated job.

 

[McRhu]

EGIP and the more recent electrification projects have used Series 2, but Castlecary is being electrified using Series 1. I believe it's just the wire run over the viaduct, so it can be more highly tensioned to resist high winds.

They have also use Series 1 on the Whifflet - Rutherglen line on at least one of the bridges; I suppose for the same reason. I must say it's all getting very confusing: you knew where you stood when it was all MK IIIa (the king of catenaries).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They have also use Series 1 on the Whifflet - Rutherglen line on at least one of the bridges; I suppose for the same reason. I must say it's all getting very confusing: you knew where you stood when it was all MK IIIa (the king of catenaries).

I'm also led to believe (haven't confirmed) the Ratho Viaduct is being wired using Series 1.

 

[McRhu]

I have just dug out my copy of the Tay Bridge Centerary booklet from 1987 it says:-

As an aside I remember Terence Cuneo describing how he did the sketches for that painting actually sitting in situ on the upper structure of the bridge and how he was affected by the wind and by vertigo. He liked to work from life and had a train positioned on the bridge to pose for him. None of this working from photos in those H&S-less days.

ps - Where's the mouse?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I have just dug out my copy of the Tay Bridge Centerary booklet from 1987 it says:-

Slightly off-topic, but I couldn't help noticing that it also says 'Dundee station handles 1,200,000 passengers and 60,000 parcels each year'

Wikipedia shows passenger numbers for Dundee of around 1.7 million in 2013-14, which over 25 years doesn't seem that large an increase. Over the same period, also according to Wikipedia, national rail usage appear to have more than doubled. Looking at the graph on this page from around 800M to 1700M. I wonder why Dundee has, apparently, missed out on much of the increase in popularity of rail?

 

[najaB]

I wonder why Dundee has, apparently, missed out on much of the increase in popularity of rail?

In the eleven years I've lived there, I'd say that Dundee has missed out on a lot of the growth that other parts of Scotland have experienced.

 

[clc]

Business case for electrifying East Kilbride will be submitted to Ministers later this year:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/p...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-29165&ResultsPerPage=10

No mention of doubling Busby-EK though.

 

[JohnR]

In the eleven years I've lived there, I'd say that Dundee has missed out on a lot of the growth that other parts of Scotland have experienced.

I would say there are a number of issues, in no particular order:

Lack of easy access to the CBD - you have to cross what is effectively a dual carriageway road on foot. The old overhead walkways while a solution, didnt help much.

Lack of parking.

Lack of integration of local bus services - as above, you have to cross the main road to go to/from the nearest bus stops.

While these may seem like minor things, its little niggles like this that make people choose to take the car instead of using the train.

 

[QueensCurve]

As an aside I remember Terence Cuneo describing how he did the sketches for that painting actually sitting in situ on the upper structure of the bridge and how he was affected by the wind and by vertigo. He liked to work from life and had a train positioned on the bridge to pose for him. None of this working from photos in those H&S-less days.

ps - Where's the mouse?

I too was wondering where the mouse was. I have spend long hours hunting it down on that cover to no avail. I assume the resolution is too low?

Edit:-

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly off-topic, but I couldn't help noticing that it also says 'Dundee station handles 1,200,000 passengers and 60,000 parcels each year'

Wikipedia shows passenger numbers for Dundee of around 1.7 million in 2013-14, which over 25 years doesn't seem that large an increase. Over the same period, also according to Wikipedia, national rail usage appear to have more than doubled. Looking at the graph on this page from around 800M to 1700M. I wonder why Dundee has, apparently, missed out on much of the increase in popularity of rail?

I imagine paucity of services from potential commuter locations has a role.

The Tayport/Newport/Wormit area is no longer served. Nor is St Andrews. Errol station closed in 1985 after years of having a "parliamentary" service.

I don't know about nowadays, but the intermediate stations between Dundee and Arbroath had very few trains.

It would be possible to put in a new station at Wormit (the original was on the Newport line)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would say there are a number of issues, in no particular order:

Lack of easy access to the CBD - you have to cross what is effectively a dual carriageway road on foot. The old overhead walkways while a solution, didnt help much.

Lack of parking.

Lack of integration of local bus services - as above, you have to cross the main road to go to/from the nearest bus stops.

While these may seem like minor things, its little niggles like this that make people choose to take the car instead of using the train.

Out of interest, are any of those issues going to be solved by the new station building?

 

[marks87]

Out of interest, are any of those issues going to be solved by the new station building?

I don't think the new building in itself will address the issues, although the fact it brings the main entrance back round to where it used to be will help. If it was a nightmare to get to before, it's worse now.

The station could benefit from knock-on effects of the overall waterfront development. If there's enough down there to attract heavy footfall, then it's inevitable that local bus services will be diverted to serve the area.

However, there's no plans to move the main bus station, which provides connections to areas of Angus not served by rail for donkey's years. That makes Arbroath and Montrose more appealing for people whose final destination is places like Forfar and Brechin.

 

[ld0595]

I can imagine the new Dundee crossrail in 2018(?) will have a large effect on passenger numbers. A good commuter service between Carnoustie, Arbroath, Broughty Ferry etc will be a welcome benefit and provide a good increase in passenger numbers.

However as other posters have said, a lack of integration with bus services and a lack of parking is a pretty big problem at the moment.

 

[gsnedders]

How much commuting actually happens into Dundee? I presume not much. The city itself remains a relatively cheap place to live, after all, and given there's no suburban rail network there's no chance of rail getting any marketshare there.

Everyone I know who commutes to/from Dundee is doing it *from* Dundee to places like St Andrews, where there's a lack of house building and ever increasing student numbers as well as increasing numbers retiring there all acting to drive up the price of living there.

Undoubtedly much of the current issue with Dundee station is the very temporary nature of it currently, though.

 

[najaB]

How much commuting actually happens into Dundee? I presume not much.

The long lines of cars on the A90 and A92 in the morning says otherwise.

 

[ld0595]

The number 73 bus between Arbroath, Montrose, Monifieth etc is usually quite busy at most times and is well used. I reckon an hourly service between Arbroath, Carnoustie, Monifieth, Broughty Ferry and maybe even an increased service at the parliamentary stops would be well used by commuters - especially those who are put off the long journey times on the bus.

 

[JohnR]

Out of interest, are any of those issues going to be solved by the new station building?

Sadly not. The current plans show no easy walking connection to the Nethergate and no bays for busses to stop outside (it would be possible to divert current bus services around the square that is being formed so they can stop right outside the station.

How much commuting actually happens into Dundee? I presume not much. The city itself remains a relatively cheap place to live, after all, and given there's no suburban rail network there's no chance of rail getting any marketshare there.

Everyone I know who commutes to/from Dundee is doing it *from* Dundee to places like St Andrews, where there's a lack of house building and ever increasing student numbers as well as increasing numbers retiring there all acting to drive up the price of living there.

Undoubtedly much of the current issue with Dundee station is the very temporary nature of it currently, though.

You'd actually be surprised at the amount of commuting that already happens into Dundee by rail. I do so from Montrose, and I am certainly not the only one. Arbroath is also fairly busy - Carnoustie and Broughty Ferry also. I think it helps because the Bus fare from the ferry is more than the rail fare (£1.50 single vs £1.65).