Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[Greenback]

Just a random comment really...

There's a sense of rail OR road transport in bits of this thread, which is a really sad but an accurate reflection of our public transport system. They should but only infrequently do complement each other.

It's really such a shame that when people arrive by train, there's not a good quality coach waiting to take them onto their ultimate destination, with proper integrated ticketing, good waiting facilities for when things go wrong and a good connection to other bus services in the area, regardless of who operates them.

I agree in principle, but there is much that could be done in better integrating the lines that are already in existence.

What those outside rural Wales need to realise is there's an overwhelming sense amongst many that have been neglected for decades in favour of attempts to regenerate the old heavy industry areas of S Wales throughout the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Followed by a National Assembly from 99 that has favoured Labour voting areas. They feel it's their turn to have a slice of the pie. This feeds into Plaids views. Business cases and looking at the population of somewhere are largely superfluous to this sense of injustice.

There are grounds for that sense of injustice, I'm in no doubt about that. Much money has been wasted on regeneration in the decades you mention, but as with closing railways in the first place, it all seemed like a jolly good idea at the time.

Despite this, in the current financial climate, it's a business case that will decide if this line is rebuilt or not, and that's as much the case if Plaid Cymru are in power as it would be under anyone else, and I say that as a Plaid supporter myself. They cna make all sorts of promises and commitments now, but if or when they get into a position to make these decisions, they will undoubtedly realise just how difficult it will be to justify the enormous expense required for a reopening.

(of course, they realise that now, but they are taking political advantage of the injustice felt in rural communities, just as I'd expect any political party to do)

The politics this year will have a big say. How many seats will UKIP get and will it ensure Labour are in a minority? If so a coalition with Plaid will see at least a fully costed study at reopening the line.

I can't predict what the outcome of the elections will be, simply because of that UKIP factor. Even if there is a fully costed study, though, I fully expect that to be the end of it. I'd be amazed if a study recommended that the line be rebuilt.

Caernarfon is a sensible reopening and the lower half of the Llyn peninsular has close on a 30K population whose natural direction of travel is northward.

Agreed. I feel that there is a much stronger case for Bangor to Afon Wen than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. At the moment I'm quite happy for this link to be mentioned in this discussion. It's not Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, but it's related to it, both for being another possible reopening and as part of justifying the reinstatement of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth route.

If the Machynlleth - Pwllheli line did not still exist, it, too, would find it hard to justify the cost of reinstating a railway.

Taken together, Pwllheli (Population 4076). Porthmadog (2981), Barmouth (2315), Machynlleth (2235), Criccieth (1753), Penrhyndeudraeth (1546), Harlech (1447) would not be large enough to justify the cost of rebuilding a lengthy railway.

This is a central issue. I'd say that serving a popular area of coastline would mean that the Cambrian Coast Line would actually have a better case for being reopened if it had closed, than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. The latter line goes nowhere near popular coastal destinations like Cardigan, New Quay and Aberaeron. Bus links would help, admittedly, but the biggest factor against reopening the route in question is the enormous cost of rebuilding what has gone.

Come to think of it, was I dreaming or do I recall seeing a few years ago a TrawsCymru bus meeting the train at Carmarthen, bound for... Aberystwyth?

That was indeed the case IIRC. I don't know what the situation is now, as I haven't been keeping track of developments with the long distance bus services.

 

[D6975]

Service T1, hourly, journey time approx 2h 15m (xx.10 off Carmarthen)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The other places on the route are little more than a small selection of houses clustered around the centre of the village, with some scattered and outlying houses and farms to add in to the mix.

Cynwyl Elfed is a good example. I can't imagine any local resident preferring the train over the bus to get to Carmarthen. The bus stops will be more convenient, both in the village and in Carmarthen itself. The old station which was called Conwil was some way form the village.

Now then, you son of the valley, if we are going down to Cynwil Elfed (you get a bonus point for knowing the name of the railway station there was Conwil) then a little further south you will note the Carmarthen - Abergwili- Ffairfach branch line made a connection to the Heart of Wales line there, so if the fantasy finance arrives the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line, then that line too should be reinstated at the same time.

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY

Blessed are those who participate upon the Closed Stations Journey Quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum for their knowledge of lines now defunct shall be manifold

 

[edwin_m]

Now then, you son of the valley, if we are going down to Cynwil Elfed (you get a bonus point for knowing the name of the railway station there was Conwil) then a little further south you will note the Carmarthen - Abergwili- Ffairfach branch line made a connection to the Heart of Wales line there, so if the fantasy finance arrives the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line, then that line too should be reinstated at the same time.

There was an alternative north-south proposal a few years ago to re-open from Rhyl to somewhere south of Corwen and from Moat Lane to Merthyr (I think, probably throwing off a branch to Brecon while they were about it). The two would have been linked by a new construction including a tunnel under the Berwyns, and would have served the multi-level interchange at Builth Road. May have been a bit quicker than a coastal route but also more costly.

their knowledge of lines now defunct shall be manifold

As in "Leek and", no doubt.

 

[HSTEd]

One advantage a 'rural tramway' would have would be it could attempt gradients that conventional lines could never dream of.
8% really simplifies routings and reduces costs I think.

 

[edwin_m]

One advantage a 'rural tramway' would have would be it could attempt gradients that conventional lines could never dream of.
8% really simplifies routings and reduces costs I think.

Some of the Continental DMUs have gradient and curving abilities close to those of a tram, though probably more like 5% rather than 8%, while still meeting main line crashworthiness standards (though one of these, the Stadler GTW, didn't come out very well when hitting a cherrypicker on a level crossing in the Netherlands). Use of something like this in the UK might provide a solution for rural re-openings, using the original formation most of the way but going round those bits that had been built over. Having track brakes might also allow them to use reinstated level crossings instead of having to build bridges for each one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some of the Continental DMUs have gradient and curving abilities close to those of a tram, though probably more like 5% rather than 8%, while still meeting main line crashworthiness standards (though one of these, the Stadler GTW, didn't come out very well when hitting a cherrypicker on a level crossing in the Netherlands). Use of something like this in the UK might provide a solution for rural re-openings, using the original formation most of the way but going round those bits that had been built over. Having track brakes might also allow them to use reinstated level crossings instead of having to build bridges for each one.

I wonder how much in the way of capital will be needed to purchase a required number of the specialised rolling stock of the type you describe above to run on this aspirational service?

 

[Greenback]

Now then, you son of the valley, if we are going down to Cynwil Elfed (you get a bonus point for knowing the name of the railway station there was Conwil) then a little further south you will note the Carmarthen - Abergwili- Ffairfach branch line made a connection to the Heart of Wales line there, so if the fantasy finance arrives the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line, then that line too should be reinstated at the same time.

I agree, and in fact, I'd say that the Llandeilo to Carmarthen route would have a better business case for reopening than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth!

 

[Llanigraham]

I agree, and in fact, I'd say that the Llandeilo to Carmarthen route would have a better business case for reopening than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth!

Agreed!!

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder how much in the way of capital will be needed to purchase a required number of the specialised rolling stock of the type you describe above to run on this aspirational service?

Probably not much more than to purchase the equivalent number of UK-spec units. The likes of Stadler are used to producing smallish quantities for things like Swiss mountain railways.

 

[HSTEd]

Even if specialised units cost double what normal ones do, it would still be overwhelmed by any savings in infrastructure at all.
Not being articulated would keep axle weights down (compared to a tram) which would allow lighter track construction in the style of Island Line.

Although diesel might be a bit problematic in terms of suppliers (Stadler don't have much diesel stuff that isn't wierd light rail equipment). Hence my proposal of tram style equipment. We could probably do what we liked with regards electrification considering Carmarthen and Aberystwyth not going to be electrified this century.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As some of you will be aware that I run the Closed Stations Journey quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum, where I both design and launch every new journey. Only closed stations are to be named in postings.

As a tribute to this thread, I have just launched journey number 422 in the series so far and if you look at the preamble of lines to be traversed on posting # 36098 with both starting and finishing closed stations, you will see that the line from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen has been incorporated.

I really would have liked to travel the route on the final two legs of this journey.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I attended the Cambrian Coast Line closure hearings at Harlech (in I think) 1970. The arguments for retention made then were remarkably similar to those expressed in this thread.

It's difficult to comprehend now how a closure proposal of such a vital route could possibly be taken seriously. But the mindset 46 years ago was completely different: most people had a car, railways were an anachronism and everywhere was accessible by bus, so what was point of keeping the railway?

I would suggest that 46 years from now, in 2062, it will be difficult to understand why anyone could have doubted the value of reopening crucial rail links such as Carmarthen-Aberystwyth!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I attended the Cambrian Coast Line closure hearings at Harlech (in I think) 1970. The arguments for retention made then were remarkably similar to those expressed in this thread.

It's difficult to comprehend now how a closure proposal of such a vital route could possibly be taken seriously. But the mindset 46 years ago was completely different: most people had a car, railways were an anachronism and everywhere was accessible by bus, so what was point of keeping the railway?

I would suggest that 46 years from now, in 2062, it will be difficult to understand why anyone could have doubted the value of reopening crucial rail links such as Carmarthen-Aberystwyth!

I also attended the hearing at Harlech and the arguments were indeed remarkably similar. Yes, the mindset was completely different but it was fatally flawed. The idea that 'everyone' had access to a car was a very long way from reality, particularly in the area covered by the railway. It was, and still is, a low wage area and per capita car ownership was low. Bus services were fairly good in those days before de-regulation but not good enough to adequately replace the railway.

The real downside of the mindset of the 'Beeching Era' was that railway lines and services were seen as 'stand alone' rather than parts of a network. Where was the logic in stripping places like Aberdare, Ebbw Vale, Blackwood and Caernarfon out of that network?

 

[30907]

I attended the Cambrian Coast Line closure hearings at Harlech (in I think) 1970. The arguments for retention made then were remarkably similar to those expressed in this thread.

It's difficult to comprehend now how a closure proposal of such a vital route could possibly be taken seriously. But the mindset 46 years ago was completely different: most people had a car...

Had there been a road from Morfa Mawddach to Barmouth, and no weight limit on Pont Briwet, the story might have been different. The Cambrian Coast also has a significant tourist function, which also differentiates it from Carmarthen to Aber.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Had there been a road from Morfa Mawddach to Barmouth, and no weight limit on Pont Briwet, the story might have been different. The Cambrian Coast also has a significant tourist function, which also differentiates it from Carmarthen to Aber.

A good and succint post ! (as we know the Cambrian had the baseload school traffic and a good - even in the 1970's summer traffic linking up numerous attractions / narrow guage railways and some superb scenery.

Carmarthen - Aberystwyth (and I am not biased - being Carmarthenshire born) - does not have a quarter of these attractions - or even a tenth - the landscape is certainly attractively rural - but no dramatic coast or mountainscape - and I struggle to think of any major tourist attractions.

Not the sue of "major"

 

[Osprey17]

As much as the enthusiast in me would love to see Carmarthen-Aberystwyth re-opened it is hard to justify it for £700M. For that you could re-open the lines to Caernarfon, Llangefni and probably even Bethesda (all of which would serve a far greater number of people) and still have change to fund any additional bus services needed between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth.

 

[PeterC]

As much as the enthusiast in me would love to see Carmarthen-Aberystwyth re-opened it is hard to justify it for £700M.

Exactly my view as well

 

[Gareth Marston]

A good and succint post ! (as we know the Cambrian had the baseload school traffic and a good - even in the 1970's summer traffic linking up numerous attractions / narrow guage railways and some superb scenery.

Carmarthen - Aberystwyth (and I am not biased - being Carmarthenshire born) - does not have a quarter of these attractions - or even a tenth - the landscape is certainly attractively rural - but no dramatic coast or mountainscape - and I struggle to think of any major tourist attractions.

Not the sue of "major"

It was the proven "hardship" factor of withdrawal that saved the Cambrian Coast. The crunch moment at the inquiry was when the Objectors legal Representative asked the local authority the weight limit on the road bridges, duly noted they cross examined Crossville next as to weight there buses were.....desperate shuffling of papers from the London Legal BR had brought up was to no avail. Everyone locally knew the buses were too heavy and would need lengthy detours it - it was a poor show from BR not even knowing that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When we last holidayed in South Wales, we managed to look for some remains of former railway lines and I remember that we visited the site of the former railway station at Maesycrugiau, now having a private residence and nice gardens, which once was on the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line.

I cannot imagine many railway tickets being sold in Maesycrugiau these days unfortunately.

 

[6Gman]

When we last holidayed in South Wales, we managed to look for some remains of former railway lines and I remember that we visited the site of the former railway station at Maesycrugiau, now having a private residence and nice gardens, which once was on the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line.

I cannot imagine many railway tickets being sold in Maesycrugiau these days unfortunately.

I don't suppose many were ever sold there!

 

[MarkRedon]

The principal campaigning group in favour of this reopening, Traws Link Cymru, is somewhat in the news today: a story at http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-36247851 shows aerial pictures taken by members of the group. For the record: although I would certainly identify myself as an optimistic crayonista, I believe this proposed reopening to be a step too far. It has the huge disadvantage of linking "population centres" which aren't. There are many more deserving reopening cases than this one.

 

[Greenback]

Aerial pictures don't really make the business case any stronger. It's still hopeless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think the way to go for Wales is a properly integrated (to the timetable and ticketing system) high quality coach service like the UCOC X5.


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[Spartacus]

My wife's from Conwyl Elfed, and I've done a fair bit of reading up on the line, which even at the best of times stuggled, and then the main source of traffic was the branch to Newcastle Emlyn. Quite frankly I can't think of any suggested reopening that gets so much publicity despite being quite so ridiculous and pointless!

 

[Greenback]

I'm of the opinion the a reopening to Newcastle Emlyn would make a lot more sense than reopening the whole route from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Who knows, it could even be so popular that it makes the case for the full reopening stronger.

 

[Blamethrower]

Build it and they will come......

Railways have always been an enabler for growth in villages and towns as less and less land becomes available for houses within cities where most of the jobs are.

Yes, no real business case appears to exist for this, but then, critically, none of use are actually qualified to to make this judgement.

Outside of the south of wales, investment in infrastructure in Wales is a joke. Nothing above a winding single carriageway from the M4 up to the A55, yet when something is mooted by politicians, it gets roundly criticised.

Considering this lack of investment convinces welsh MPs to approve this and re-opening was approved, would you support it and would you use it?

Conversely, if this money was available to spend elsewhere, where would you spend the money?

Personally I love Wales and have visited many times over the years. I just wish there were quicker ways to get around than single track roads so I would vote for new roads instead of new railways:

ie Dual Carriageways from

- Shrewsbury to Mallwyd and Aberystwyth (splitting at welshpool)
- and then dualling throughout of the A470 (but straightened in places + building tunnels) from Cardiff and Swansea (A465), join/split at Brecon and then end at Llandudno junction to intersect with the A55.

 

[Greenback]

The geography, population spread and density in mid Wales simply does not lend itself to either dual carriageways or railways being a sensible economic choice. Particularly in the current climate where there a lot more things that could be done to benefit far more people with the money that would be required to fund this reopening.

 

[GarethJohn]

Not having to travel Via Shrewsbury when wanting to go to Swansea, being able to catch a Train to Camarthen and Llanelli and getting back within a day, having the option to catch a London bound train without using Birmingham, an easy train journey for South Wales tourists, closer stops for the better parts of the Ceredigion Coast along with adding some stops which give access to the Coastal Path sounds great and not having to use a rubbish Toilet-less Bus that shouldn't have any place on a journey as long as Aberystwyth-Cardiff. Bring it on!!

 

[Harbornite]

I've seen other posts on the thread that share my opinion, namely that Afonwen to Bangor via Caernarfon should have priority. Nevertheless, I would like to see both lines reopened but these things aren't always realistic.