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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?
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Spartacus
Established Member
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They didn't when it was first built.
A government expert committee (SACTRA) found that trunk road improvements for connectivity could be as negative, economically, as they could be positive. If communities can be easier served from afar, this can lead to extraction of local industry and distribution services. As to connecting these two remote small market towns, socially and economically remote from each other, I have difficulty in imagining how even an economic case could be made, let alone a social one. The third prong of the justification, environment, is definitely negative, in such a semi-wild area, much more so for road improvement, but still negative.
Just a slogan that some people are fond of repeating, but not necessarily a true one.
I suggest that you should listen to yourself. If even an enthusiast for railways would prefer to see a new road built then, no, they (you) will not come – at least, not by train.
This puts me in mind of the near-anger I feel when I see mindless "enthusiasts" driving up to the railway boundary and sometimes trespassing over it to take selfish and life-endangering pictures of museum pieces. Railways exist to meet economic and social need. They are not even particularly green when they cart around fresh air and few passengers. Railways can have great utility even in rural areas provided that they also link significant population centres which create through demand (for example, the Settle and Carlisle line which links West Yorkshire and Cumbria, with useful marginal revenue at the reopened intermediate stations and pullthrough tourism revenues). That is not the case between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
You got 10's of Billions spare then?
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The Tory party seems to have forgotten the report , it helped kill off "roads to prosperity" back in the early 90's.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
1/ What town and villages? Perhaps you need to look at a map and see that this line goes through a very sparsely populated area.
2/ No, but some of us live here and do know the area!
3/ Much of the A470 is dual carriageway in South Wales, and has been improved in other areas, and there are plans for further improvements. Many parts of the route could not be dualled easily.
4/ Nothing to do with the MP's!! Transport has been devolved to the Senedd.
5/ Most traffic to Aberystwyth uses the A44 from the South Midlands, and that would be very difficult to make a dual carriageway.
A470 is dualled nearly all the way to Brecon.
The Heads of the Valley road is currently being dualled.
I suggest that if you do love Wales so much, you actually look at what WE want, which is not lots of by-passes,(other than Newtown!!) which are known to reduce passing trade. Perhaps you need to slow down and see what you are missing as you speed through on your proposed neo-motorways.
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Wales (especially South Wales and North Wales) is festooned with OTT road building. The useless Carmarthen by-pass being an unfortunate West Wales example. Why can't they realise that the more remote they are, how much more attractive to tourists they are?
We had a holiday in West Wales that was a dream. We got there by rail (so didn't need all the pleb motorways), hired a car for a couple of days out of the 5, and so experienced the best of all worlds. The rest of the stay, we used the excllent local buses.
We had a holiday in West Wales that was a dream. We got there by rail (so didn't need all the pleb motorways), hired a car for a couple of days out of the 5, and so experienced the best of all worlds. The rest of the stay, we used the excllent local buses.
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The Carmathen bypass, and its sister, the Cross Hands bypass, dramatically improve my experience of getting to and from West Wales every year since they respectively opened.
OT now, but for inappropriate road building, look further north, to Scotland. Dualling 86 miles of the A96 for example.
The A470 is dualled to the junction with the A465 HotV Road, 60% of the way to Brecon, and then has some more dual carriageway where it shares a route with the A40 to bypass Brecon. I don't think any currently proposed improvements on the A470 will be dual.
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Tourism isn't the only industry. Some people in Wales have normal jobs, almost as if they were real people.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I didn't say the A470 was going to be dualled all the way to North Wales, and I do know EXACTLY how much of it has been improved in some way as I use it regularly and I live just off it.
Phil from Mon
Member
Can't think of any in the North West that were not vital, eg Porthmadog bypass, A470 improvements around Dolgellau, planned Caernarfon bypass, A55 across Ynys Mon. Maybe someone could come up with some north eastern examples, can't think of any off the top of my head.
If you had been stuck behind endless Mansel Davies milk tankers when travelling north to south you would pray for a reopening Bangor to Afon Wen and a transfer of all that traffic to rail.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Theirs an obsession among st the political classes that road building brings prosperity - it doesn't. Extending the A55 dual carriageway in the early 2000's across Anglesey didn't turn it into the land of milk and honey did it? No more than extending the A470 dual carriageway up to Merthyr in the 80's did. Theirs barely a village in S Wales not 3 miles away from a junction on a dual carriageways/motorway/bypass. Yet most of it is "assisted area" - Wales is in fact a grand case study in how tarmac has not achieved its economic claims. Portugal spent most of its inflated EU assistance budget building a national motorway network yet remains poorer than Wales.
Blamethrower
Member
Well it's clear to me now then, no new roads and no new railways for the people of Wales because they don't want them.
Ignore the tourism industry that gives Wales lots of commerce, ignore the fact that freight needs to get around the country, ignore the fact that Wales has it's own national assembly and is trying to improve the economy of the country.
It's also nothing to do with geography, that is such a British excuse. Go to Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, France, roads and railways consistently built through mountainous areas.
At the moment, all I can hear in my head is the mantra of Royston Vasey serial killer Edward Tattsyrup :-
"Now listen here, this is a decent town and a local shop, there's nothing for you here"
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How did you come to that conclusion?
South Wales is a completely different kettle of fish to mid and north wales.
It's almost as if the south want to remain prosperous on their own and to hell with the rest of the country.
Now where have I heard that before?
Ignore the tourism industry that gives Wales lots of commerce, ignore the fact that freight needs to get around the country, ignore the fact that Wales has it's own national assembly and is trying to improve the economy of the country.
It's also nothing to do with geography, that is such a British excuse. Go to Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, France, roads and railways consistently built through mountainous areas.
At the moment, all I can hear in my head is the mantra of Royston Vasey serial killer Edward Tattsyrup :-
"Now listen here, this is a decent town and a local shop, there's nothing for you here"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How did you come to that conclusion?
South Wales is a completely different kettle of fish to mid and north wales.
It's almost as if the south want to remain prosperous on their own and to hell with the rest of the country.
Now where have I heard that before?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
People have been using cars, local buses, bicycles, etc, for tourism purposes ever since the closure of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line.
If the Welsh Government sees it will be in their national interest to work towards the reopening of this line, then can I ask that we let them make that decision based upon the facts that they seem important to them as a national body and not to aid an aspiration of a rail-minded individual whose line of thought is coloured by a love of railways.
Gwenllian2001
Member
You have forgotten the 'Heads of the Valleys' road, now being converted to a dual carriageway at enormous expense. This road was supposed to bring prosperity to the area when it replaced the railway, which was perfectly adequate for the traffic on offer. Heavy and light industry has declined drastically, almost to vanishing point, in the areas it was supposed to stimulate. It has been, and will remain, an enormously expensive white elephant. All that it has achieved is to bring in goods and services that were formally scourced locally adding to the decline in employment opportunities.
There is a case for road improvements in many areas but some of the 'gold plated' schemes are wholly disproportionate to what is, or was, needed. The hugely expensive 'Merthyr Trunk Road' (A470) as it was called has done nothing for the area itself except increase rush hour traffic.
It is wholly ironic that so much 'spare capacity' was stripped out of the railways, by the followers of Beeching, on the grounds that it was only needed at times of peak demand. Now, of course, bye-passes and dual carriageways are built to satisfy the same peak demands and are, for most of the time, simply not needed to cope with the traffic on offer.
Take a trip along the 'Heads of the Valleys' road and marvel at the emptiness of it and wonder what on earth prompted anyone to throw money at such a scheme.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
If you look back at the attitude in the 1970's - early 80's when much of the Welsh rail netwrok outwith the GWML and North Wales coast was under threat (and the A55 did the latter no favours) - we are very fortunate that we still have a thriving (yes - subsidised) Valleys network. John Davies - the sub Regional manager at the time related how the "flagship" Treherbet line was nearly cut back to Porth for a new road which was sure to regenerate the top end of the Rhondda , he fought to reinstate hourly services to destinations such as Rhymney and got extensions like the City Line , Aberdare going. The Cambrian was saved (on two counts - flooding and Barmouth Bridge) - all done to save existing lines - the "new comers" have been freight lines re-opened with great success (and am proud to have played a part in the VoG and Ebbw Vale from my time at the SRA)
Never , ever would I in my wildest dreams countenanced Carmarthen - Aberystwth for £750m .....and still (in retirement) do not.
Never , ever would I in my wildest dreams countenanced Carmarthen - Aberystwth for £750m .....and still (in retirement) do not.
Harbornite
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 May 2016
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- 3,627
Surely the best thing to do is to ignore the thread? It should remain open as long as there are developments regarding the campaign to reopen the line.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Maybe the thread ought to include other add-ons to Aber- Carmarthen - Aberaeron reopening from Lampeter - and the 1900 era idea of the Vale of Rheidol extension to Aberaeron via the coast. ?
Llangurig anyone ?
Keep it going until eventually the BCR is proved...or not. Like it.
Llangurig anyone ?
Keep it going until eventually the BCR is proved...or not. Like it.
There are plenty of examples of where they built something ...
... and they didn't come!
Think back to all those millennium projects!
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Well there is still a little bit of the earthworks in existence, and the diggings for the 2 portals of the Myherin tunnel!
However...........................
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
And no doubt the lingering ghost of the one "freight" train that ran. A perfect episode for Hinterland I reckon.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
And no doubt the lingering ghost of the one "freight" train that ran. A perfect episode for Hinterland I reckon.
Allegedly only as far as the outskirts of Llangurig village.
I only found about the 2 tunnel portals recently.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The political scene remains fluid in Wales with Plaid nearly derailing Carwyn Jones nomination to be First Minister. Some horse trading seems likely if Labour are to govern which gives hope to transport projects away from the all the eggs in one basket approach of Welsh Labour.
Meanwhile the group promoting reopening have done their aerial filming of the trackbed and will have promotional DVD out soon.
Meanwhile the group promoting reopening have done their aerial filming of the trackbed and will have promotional DVD out soon.
And the AM for Ceredigion has become the Presiding Officer (Speaker) of the Senedd and therefore no longer votes ...
Just saying.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
And the AM for Ceredigion has become the Presiding Officer (Speaker) of the Senedd and therefore no longer votes ...
Just saying.
No worries looks like UKIP will prop up Labour if Severn Tolls are abolished, no news on how repairs will be afforded if this happens of course.
An interesting idea, but Newcastle Emlyn was a branch off the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen line, not part of the through route. If you wanted a phased re-opening, I guess the first stage would have to be one of Carmarthen-Pencader, Carmarthen-Lampeter, Aberystwyth-Llanfarian or Aberystwyth-Llanilar. All of these suffer from including one of the 'expensive bits' where a new route would be required. The old route has been built on at the Aberystwyth end, and at the Carmarthen end (south of Pencader) I expect the curvature of the former route would significantly lengthen journey times. If the train isn't faster than driving there is absolutely zero case for re-opening.
I'd start by upgrading Cardiff-Bridgend, and Carmarthen-Port Talbot (via the Swansea District Line), with a target Carmarthen-Cardiff journey time of no more than 70 minutes (I'd call it 'Project 70'). Then keep the waiting rooms at Aberystwyth and Carmarthen stations open from first to last bus/train, and put on faster (more-direct) buses between the two with enhanced legroom etc, connecting with the fast Cardiff-Carmarthen services. Then Bangor-Caernarfon with an hourly service initially but sufficient capacity for at least 2tph, with passive provison for extension further south to Porthmadog (using a new route between Bryncir and Porthmadog, rather than reopening via Afon Wen which would be slower, again there's no point building a railway if the car is faster, you might as well invest in buses instead) and/or Llanberris.
Why do you love Wales? If you build bigger roads, more cars will come to spoil Wales, and the climate.
You don't have to do that, the rubbish toilet-less bus from Aberystwyth doesn't go all the way to Cardiff, it terminates at Carmarthen and you have to change. So change onto a train (which will hopefully have a toilet and, if you're lucky, won't be a rubbish train (there are some rubbish trains on the Carmarthen line though)) at Carmarthen instead of going all the way on a bus.
Carmarthen and Aberystwyth are not 'two remote small market towns, socially and economically remote from each other'. In the context of our area, they are large towns, and the hourly bus service between them was the busiest TrawsCambria bus route.
Interesting question: how many cars does a class 158 need to take off the road to result in reduced greenhouse gas emmisions overall? Obviously, in rural areas the best solution would be to get pepole onto buses instead of driving, but buses are always slower than driving some that might not be achievable. Trains are much more likely to achieve modal shift.
There's no through demand on the Scotish border's railway is there? Maybe there would be if it ran all the way from Carlisle to Edinburgh, but it doesn't do that currently, yet sounds like it has been a huge success. The borders to Edinburgh sounds compareable to Aberystwyth and Lampeter to Cardiff to me, but I suppose Cardiff is not Edinburgh and Aberystwyth has alterative major centres (Shrewsbury and Birmingham) for passengers to head for, which may split the demand. Still, the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury and Birmingham trains are doing well...
I don't know about the Dolgellau improvements, but the others all appear to be further destruction of the competivitiveness of public transport. Bypasses, I believe, make things very difficult for buses. A Bangor-Porthmadog railway would probably be more successful without Caernarfon and Porthmadog bypasses too, and the dual carriageway across Ynys Mon probably impacts the railway to Holyhead as well.
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