Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

Well done, you managed to unearth one item - from more than 20 years ago.

You learn from history, not dismiss it.

Industrial economics

The Darlington Bus War is widely discussed in the topic of Industrial Economics after being publicised by the highly regarded micro-economist Daniel McMahon. It serves as the perfect example to demonstrate the effect of price wars and also incorporates the debate on Nationalization vs Privatization. The Darlington Bus War has arguably been the focus of his research as demonstrated in his 2009 article Global Crises and Darlington's Bus War.

From the same article

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Nothing in life is ever 100% safe.

Can 1 quote that statement in court when I kill someone between my doo train and the platform ? I'll say you said it was ok and I'm sure they'll let me off

 

[Goldfish62]

Not sure why you are going rather crazy with comments like '....this ruthless company'. Stagecoach is one of the best managed and most respected companies in the UK. As with most successful operators, I'm sure that they won't please everybody all of the time but I have no idea why you would call them ruthless - more accurate, perhaps, to say professional and highly efficient.

I'd be interested to know why you think my comment about them being ruthless is crazy,and also your inference that being ruthless is not mutually compatible with being well managed and professional?

Stagecoach has a deserved reputation among commentators and industry professionals for being ruthless. I suggest you read Christian Woolmar's book. Do you remember Darlington or the SWT guards dispute where they drafted in buses and drivers from as far afield as Scotland?

Time to remove the rose inted spectacles. The only reason they're currently being benevolent on SWT is that they can afford to be.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Anyone seen the OBS consultation document it seems to say there are 470 guards and 87 revenue staff with Southern. That the target is to have 255 OBS and 194 conductors, that is a target of 108 less jobs. Then later it goes on to say there won't be need for redundancies as there will be the same number of onboard staff. :?

The first sensible thing you've said in this saga

 

[Secrettraindri]

Sorry to bring facts into these rants, but as far as I am aware trains are no longer now than they were in the days of slam door stock when passengers were expected to look after their own safety, and I doubt the number of passengers per coach has changed very much.

With all due respect I know that you're incorrect on both counts

 

[infobleep]

You learn from history, not dismiss it.



From the same article

But were they ruthless to the staff working for them? You could be ruthless to all expect those working for you.

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[DarloRich]

Well done, you managed to unearth one item - from more than 20 years ago.

I'd be interested to know why you think my comment about them being ruthless is crazy,and also your inference that being ruthless is not mutually compatible with being well managed and professional?

Stagecoach has a deserved reputation among commentators and industry professionals for being ruthless. I suggest you read Christian Woolmar's book. Do you remember Darlington or the SWT guards dispute where they drafted in buses and drivers from as far afield as Scotland?

Time to remove the rose inted spectacles. The only reason they're currently being benevolent on SWT is that they can afford to be.

The tactics used by stagecoach in Darlington were ruthless in the extreme and led to the demise of the local bus company and meant the council could not sell their bus company as planned depriving the people of useful extra monies to spend in a run down area. Moving to today they are already training management and other grades in train duties on East Coast in advance of any DDO strike there:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne..._a__union_busting_war_footing_/?ref=mrb&lp=29

Northern Echo: VIRGIN Trains has admitted it has contingency plans in place in case of a strike on the East Coast Mainline, but has been accused of “deliberate and outrageous” provocation.

The RMT rail union said empty trains were being operated on the route in order to train up management volunteers and other grades of staff in preparation for a possible strike.

 

[Secrettraindri]

I've just returned from Europe where I saw many DOO services of long lengths leaving from crowded platforms with no dispatch staff - were all these trains that I saw "unsafe"?

Possibly. But as many of us have tried to say, it's a question of liability too. We've established that there are services elsewhere where there are rules about use of the doors which passengers follow or take the consequences. What we have in the UK is a fuzzy grey area whereby the driver can find himself being prosecuted due to unwittingly making an error of judgement because he's being put in a position where it's almost impossible to make a totally safe judgment due to a crap view and risk taking passengers who don't take responsibility for themselves. Some of us might feel happier about DOO if we had the expectation that passengers who break protocol don't become the driver's responsibility when they injure or kill themselves.

 

[hounddog]

What we have in the UK is a fuzzy grey area whereby the driver can find himself being prosecuted due to unwittingly making an error of judgement

How many drivers have been prosecuted over DOO incidents?

 

[ChathillMan]

Stagecoach has a deserved reputation among commentators and industry professionals for being ruthless. I suggest you read Christian Woolmar's book. Do you remember Darlington or the SWT guards dispute where they drafted in buses and drivers from as far afield as Scotland?

Heaven forbid Stagecoach trying to maintain a service for it's customers....

 

[Secrettraindri]

My guess is that

East Grinstead isn't (yet) DOO so, in order to provide a service, Southern have used their limited number of guards working on strike days there rather than via Redhill. Trains can run DOO to Three Bridges via Redhill provided they only stop at East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges so that is the service provided. Southern can't stop DOO trains (yet) at the smaller stations on the Redhill line.

The routes on which Southern can't but Thameslink can run DOO is a central factor in this dispute and that becomes even more inconsistent when 700s take over from Southern's units to East Grinstead, Littlehampton and Horsham.

A full metro service is running so Southern need to use existing mainline paths to provide the (outer) services running during the strike. As the Redhill / Three Bridges and Brighton services are running from Victoria, it makes sense for the East Grinstead trains to run from London Bridge. As the 'Horsham path' is already timetabled from London Bridge, the East Grinstead services use that.

Finally, there are somewhat easier bus links between Redhill line stations than there are between East Grinstead line stations.

And lots of influential rich people commute from the Grinstead line. Mustn't disappoint them must we. Can't wait to see their faces when they get held up by a pass comm or thrown off because the DOO cameras have packed up.

 

[DarloRich]

Possibly. But as many of us have tried to say, it's a question of liability too. We've established that there are services elsewhere where there are rules about use of the doors which passengers follow or take the consequences. What we have in the UK is a fuzzy grey area whereby the driver can find himself being prosecuted due to unwittingly making an error of judgement because he's being put in a position where it's almost impossible to make a totally safe judgment due to a crap view and risk taking passengers who don't take responsibility for themselves. Some of us might feel happier about DOO if we had the expectation that passengers who break protocol don't become the driver's responsibility when they injure or kill themselves.

I don't wish to be difficult but you cant be absolved of negligence because of the actions of the victim unless it is gross in the extreme. I doubt rushing to try and board a train just before it leaves is gross enough.

The drivers union should be saying that their members are already legally responsible for the safe conduct of a train carrying X number of people and set out a list of their current tasks. They should say their members don't have time or "head space" to carry the extra responsibility of making sure that all the passengers get on board safely.

I wouldn't argue in the main about the quality of the safety equipment because the answer can always be "we will change it".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Heaven forbid Stagecoach trying to maintain a service for it's customers....

You don't know what you are talking about - they didn't have any passengers in Darlington until they moved in and offered free travel until the corporation transport company went bust

 

[infobleep]

We are almost back to Taff Vale times with this.

What was Taff Vale?

Southern had some poster up apologising this morning. It said the conductors were not being removed from trains but surely if the role of conductor is gone then technically they are. A new role may exist but it isn't a conductor role. It's a new role.

The other day I was a few minutes late for an appointment in Brighton. I explained to the person Southern were not employing enough staff at the moment, which is perfectly true. That's not how Govia would like people to view it.

When London Midland had a driver shortage some years ago, they agreed with the regulator to offer season ticket holders some free travel anywhere tickets for their region.

Will Southern do something similar, given they have not recruited enough staff and services are having to be cancelled?

Out of interest, how much higher is the sickness compared to normal when trains could be run?

The delays to trains seem to occur during the day more than the morning or evening peaks. That's my experience of the Brighton Mainline at least.

I hope RMT are able to go to court over the strike pay issue and win.

It will get worse for passengers if the drivers strike, which I hope they do, if Southern continues with their DOO system.

I work with IT and so like to think I'm not a luddite when it comes to new technology and the benefits it brings. However I still don't want DOO.

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[DarloRich]

What was Taff Vale?

Google shall be your friend: Taff Vale Rly Co v Amalgamated Society of Rly Servants [1901] UKHL 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taff_Vale_Rly_Co_v_Amalgamated_Society_of_Rly_Servants

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1901/1.html

WIKI: commonly known as the Taff Vale case, is a formative case in UK labour law. It held that, at common law, unions could be liable for loss of profits to employers that were caused by taking strike action.

The labour movement reacted to Taff Vale with outrage; the case gave impetus to the establishment of the UK Labour Party

 

[speedy_sticks]

StI'll waiting for my answer Mag_Seven

 

[Secrettraindri]

I don't wish to be difficult but you cant be absolved of negligence because of the actions of the victim unless it is gross in the extreme. I doubt rushing to try and board a train just before it leaves is gross enough.

The drivers union should be saying that their members are already legally responsible for the safe conduct of a train carrying X number of people and set out a list of their current tasks. They should say their members don't have time or "head space" to carry the extra responsibility of making sure that all the passengers get on board safely.

I wouldn't argue in the main about the quality of the safety equipment because the answer can always be "we will change it".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You don't know what you are talking about - they didn't have any passengers in Darlington until they moved in and offered free travel until the corporation transport company went bust

I think perhaps I haven't made my point quite as clearly as I might. What I'm saying is that I have seen passengers behaving in a risky way and I have only seen them because of sheer luck eg the quality of the monitors and the light available at the time was perfect. Had either of these been different I might have had an incident on my hands, and I have no way of knowing whether my testimony would be accepted or whether they would crawl all over everything in an attempt to find a tiny scrap of evidence that they could use against me to exonerate themselves and their system of dispatch. Where the line between negligence and mishap lies is increasingly indistinct due to sheer numbers and the vastly differing qualities of each platform and drivers feel as if they don't know where they stand anymore ie they do not necessarily know if what they are doing is wrong. For example, the rule book states you should look back as you move off "if it is safe to do so". Safe presumably means if you are not about to lose your head as you pass a bridge or not be able to view a foot crossing dead ahead - but there is no real guidance as to what safe is. So if someone grabs hold of your moving train and gets dragged to their death because you did not look back and so did not see it or stop, who is at fault? Due to curved platforms, you cannot always see what is going on even if you do look back - so who is to blame then? And in the trains with in cab monitors, invariably you cannot look back and move off anyway without great discomfort, and the monitors go off when you hit 5mph. So if the above occurs after the monitors are off but while you could be theory be looking out with cramp in your leg holding down the DSD, who is liable then? Can you see why we are uncomfortable? This is potentially 100 times a day or more you have to hope these circumstances don't come together like this. It's no way for anyone to have to work.

 

[DarloRich]

I can see exactly why drivers are uncomfortable both with the potential for legal action and the lay out of their ddo cabs and the provision of safety equipment. The problem is that they ARE legally responsible for the loading of passengers if running DDO and that responsibility cant be divorced from the job. Sadly, you cant create a special class of legal exemptions for train drivers or railway staff in cases of negligence.

 

[Secrettraindri]

How many drivers have been prosecuted over DOO incidents?

I think that's irrelevant. Dispatch staff have been prosecuted and as that is increasingly going to be one and the same as the driver, it's a question of when it's our turn not if. If you read my reply to DarloRich about liability, you'll see what I mean. If you are spending your working day seeing situations that could turn nasty at every other stop and you have become aware that you can unwittingly do something for which the law will try to prosecute you then you are under a shadow the whole time. And increases in train lengths, passenger numbers and a wider introduction of DOO makes it more likely that a driver will slip up at some point. And not even be aware that he was wrong. It's the creeping expectation amongst drivers that they will be used as a scapegoat that is our fear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see exactly why drivers are uncomfortable both with the potential for legal action and the lay out of their ddo cabs and the provision of safety equipment. The problem is that they ARE legally responsible for the loading of passengers if running DDO and that responsibility cant be divorced from the job. Sadly, you cant create a special class of legal exemptions for train drivers or railway staff in cases of negligence.

Again, this is the point! No one really knows where their responsibility ends and where negligence begins!

 

[DarloRich]

Again, this is the point! No one really knows where their responsibility ends and where negligence begins!

That will be up the judge sadly. It wont take long before someone is in the dock. The legal definition doesn't help much either:

a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances

My argument is the union and drivers should be stressing this point clearly and forcefully. The risk that drivers are being asked to absorb on top of their exiting legal responsibility is vastly increased

 

[speedy_sticks]

FACT Disabled folks suffer worse service under DOO (not on 24 hour staffed stations I admit, but still room for error if they have unmanned platforms.)

We loose the right to travel spontaneously, which most here take for granted.

 

[talldave]

5mph for monitor cut-off seems very low (but I'm a passenger with no relevant knowledge). 20mph or, dare I say it, GPS interlock might be better?

 

[Secrettraindri]

That will be up the judge sadly. It wont take long before someone is in the dock. The legal definition doesn't help much either:

a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances

My argument is the union and drivers should be stressing this point clearly and forcefully. The risk that drivers are being asked to absorb on top of their exiting legal responsibility is vastly increased

Absolutely. We are being left open to undue liability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

5mph for monitor cut-off seems very low (but I'm a passenger with no relevant knowledge). 20mph or, dare I say it, GPS interlock might be better?

I agree. Or better still a guard hanging out of a drop light with his finger on the stop bell!

 

[BRblue]

5mph for monitor cut-off seems very low (but I'm a passenger with no relevant knowledge). 20mph or, dare I say it, GPS interlock might be better?

This and a lot of other relevant points have already been posted earlier in the thread...
A drivers job is to drive, the more time they spend monitoring cctv the less time concentrating on driving. That in turn could increase the chance of a spad, or failing to acknowledge aws etc,etc.

 

[BestWestern]

5mph for monitor cut-off seems very low (but I'm a passenger with no relevant knowledge). 20mph or, dare I say it, GPS interlock might be better?

One of the many 'elephants in the room' of DOO; the monitors are accepted to be a distraction to the Driver.

What is GPS interlock?!

 

[Deepgreen]

One of the many 'elephants in the room' of DOO; the monitors are accepted to be a distraction to the Driver.

What is GPS interlock?!

I imagine this is meant to mean some form of Global Positioning System function whereby the GPS would be used to dictate when the monitors are cut off. Given the significant unreliability of information-based GPS systems, I would avoid this option at all costs.

 

[BestWestern]

I imagine this is meant to mean some form of Global Positioning System function whereby the GPS would be used to dictate when the monitors are cut off. Given the significant unreliability of information-based GPS systems, I would avoid this option at all costs.

Such a system also still fails to circumvent the issue of the monitors deactivating at slightly more than walking speed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That will be up the judge sadly. It wont take long before someone is in the dock. The legal definition doesn't help much either:

a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances

It's defined a bit better than that in caselaw. To paraphrase, it's basically "would a professional peer have done the same thing in the same situation".

 

[Surreytraveller]

I can see exactly why drivers are uncomfortable both with the potential for legal action and the lay out of their ddo cabs and the provision of safety equipment. The problem is that they ARE legally responsible for the loading of passengers if running DDO and that responsibility cant be divorced from the job. Sadly, you cant create a special class of legal exemptions for train drivers or railway staff in cases of negligence.

What is DDO?

 

[DarloRich]

What is DDO?

Driver Door Operation - aka single manning

 

[infobleep]

I can see exactly why drivers are uncomfortable both with the potential for legal action and the lay out of their ddo cabs and the provision of safety equipment. The problem is that they ARE legally responsible for the loading of passengers if running DDO and that responsibility cant be divorced from the job. Sadly, you cant create a special class of legal exemptions for train drivers or railway staff in cases of negligence.

Why not. Perhaps that is the solution. Make it so drivers are not responsible or culpable.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FACT Disabled folks suffer worse service under DOO (not on 24 hour staffed stations I admit, but still room for error if they have unmanned platforms.)

We loose the right to travel spontaneously, which most here take for granted.

People who need access to loos at a moments notice are disadvantaged on trains without loos, especially on lines here the toilets are locked more often than open due to ticket offices rarely being open.

Perhaps GTR think disabled passengers should be treated similarly.

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