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Goring Gap/AONBs and Electrification of the GWML

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SodTheDrummer

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I note also what Philip says above about HS2. Clearly a situation where people get it into their heads that you can have 400 kph trains running off headspans must be avoided at all costs.

I can picture them running round shouting Malcom Tucker style "F***ing headspans, who told them they can have f***ing headspans, I'm gonna rip their f***ing heads off, the dumn f***ers! Over my dead f***ing body are we putting f***ing headspans in"

I loved The Thick of It..:D
 
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Lurpi

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I can picture them running round shouting Malcom Tucker style "F***ing headspans, who told them they can have f***ing headspans, I'm gonna rip their f***ing heads off, the dumn f***ers! Over my dead f***ing body are we putting f***ing headspans in"

I loved The Thick of It..:D

Well, it would be nice if there WAS someone in government or NR to make a passionate case for why headspans are a bad idea and who was in a position of authority to influence the outcome. But such a person has yet to make an entrance to this debate. It's no good ranting on this board about it, someone important needs to get on the airwaves, talk to the DfT and the government whips and tell the AONBs where they can stick their headspans (he said, while ranting).
 
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Domh245

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The key phrase in a lot of the press on their website is

Network Rail intends to undertake such works as are necessary, subject to costs and the agreement of funding

Unless they can find several million down the sofa, there is little to no chance of remedial work happening. The government won't want to finance it themselves as it'd set a bad precedent, as already pointed out.

The other get out quote that I could spot was:

then narrowed down to 3 or 4 designs that have been checked for engineering, safety and reliability requirements

Going off what P.P. has said, they'd be hard pressed to find anything that would meet these requirements that isn't series 1.
 

SodTheDrummer

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Well, it would be nice if there WAS someone in government or NR to make a passionate case for why headspans are a bad idea and who was in a position of authority to influence the outcome.

I don't know how high up Mr Phlopp Esq is within NR, but he has explained the case on here in a reasoned and sensible manner and in language that someone such as I, who has an interest in such matters, but no real technical knowledge of the subject, can accept that headspans are not appropriate and the series 1 equipment is the best solution for the job.. I would hope that the engineers reports were made available to whoever was lumbered with the chore of liaising with the NIMBYS.

Suspect that when the reasons series 1 was used was explained to the Goring lot that it was a case of fingers in ears, shout 'I can't hear you, I can't hear you. We are special. Make a special design for us. We don't care how much it costs the taxpayer.'
 

NSEFAN

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Domh245 said:
Going off what P.P. has said, they'd be hard pressed to find anything that would meet these requirements that isn't series 1.
It's all politics, really. NR knows damn well that it's not going to replace perfectly functional equipment for a "prettier" design, both for cost and practical reasons, but has to be seen to be investigating it. Provided it can show clearly that the installed kit is one of the few options to do the job, then it won't have to do a thing (although it might spray paint the masts dark green as a token gesture...)
 

nidave

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It's all politics, really. NR knows damn well that it's not going to replace perfectly functional equipment for a "prettier" design, both for cost and practical reasons, but has to be seen to be investigating it. Provided it can show clearly that the installed kit is one of the few options to do the job, then it won't have to do a thing (although it might spray paint the masts dark green as a token gesture...)

It will be funny if they spray them all green and it is far more noticeable.
 

asylumxl

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I imagine when electrification brings improvements to services and drives house prices up, the same people whining now will be banging on about their transport connections in their sale ads.
 

jimm

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This detail doesn't sound like it came from nowhere. Somebody must have mentioned headspans.

Repeatedly there've been suggestions on this board that the Save the Goring Gap mob wouldn't get anything. Then it turned out they might get something. Now it looks like they probably will - and what's more, it might be the dreaded headspan, unless someone can categorically shoot this down.

Remember that this is the RAG website you're citing - they might well have (probably a racing certainty) mentioned headspans in the meeting and someone from Network Rail gave a flat-bat answer something like 'we haven't ruled anything in or out at this stage'. In RAG-speak, that means headspans are still an option, whereas, for reasons explained here many times, they simply aren't viable to meet the requirements for robust, reliable 140mph running that the Government has told Network Rail it wants.

RAG keep trying to make out that they will get something and that they will have some kind of veto on anything that might happen - and will presumably continue to do so until told otherwise. It's in their own interest to do so, to make themselves sound important. Don't forget that their attempt to get 10,000 signatures on a petition to force a Parliamentary debate ended with just 1,200 names on the list.

And note that Network Rail chose to meet the AONBs separately - remember that the actual nub of the matter is Network Rail's apparent failure to consult the AONBs and district councils. And Network Rail still has every legal right to do what it likes on its own land, thanks to powers granted by Parliament.

It will be funny if they spray them all green and it is far more noticeable.

It certainly will be against a grey or blue sky compared with galvanised steel - and of course the headspans they seem to be so enamoured of require much taller uprights than the portals...
 
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coppercapped

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SNIP

I note also what Philip says above about HS2. Clearly a situation where people get it into their heads that you can have 400 kph trains running off headspans must be avoided at all costs.

As the bulk of HS2 will be twin track railway, headspans - intended for three or more parallel tracks - are very unlikely to be needed, let alone used.
 

GRALISTAIR

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It will be funny if they spray them all green and it is far more noticeable.

lol::lol:

It certainly will be against a grey or blue sky compared with galvanised steel - and of course the headspans they seem to be so enamoured of require much taller uprights than the portals...

Oh yes :lol:

I imagine when electrification brings improvements to services and drives house prices up, the same people whining now will be banging on about their transport connections in their sale ads.

Quite
 

Who Cares

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JIMM....

Why do you bother even looking at that Site if it gets you so worked up ?

MC has already confirmed that funds for replacement of the existing OLE were included in the lastest costs-to-completion estimates - just not ringfenced....But given NR's seriously and hopelessly pathetic record on cost overspends on this project, they'll probably be used up on any number of things that have been overlooked / forgotten about / incorrectly designed / deliberately time and cost underestimated / etc / etc / etc....

And to ASYLUMXL....

Suggest you read the whole thread again....House prices in the Goring Gap WILL NOT increase in value as a result of this Project as the residents of the Goring Gap and the AsONB are unlikely to have any benefits from ' improvements to services '.....We've already been through that several times.....Maybe residents of Swindon, Chippenham, etc, but not those you mention....
 
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ainsworth74

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The key phrase in a lot of the press on their website is



Unless they can find several million down the sofa, there is little to no chance of remedial work happening. The government won't want to finance it themselves as it'd set a bad precedent, as already pointed out.

The other get out quote that I could spot was:



Going off what P.P. has said, they'd be hard pressed to find anything that would meet these requirements that isn't series 1.

I think that this is the game that Network Rail are playing. Make all nice noises and make it sound as if they're doing loads of engagement and consultation but at the end of the day they're going to get what they want. Best case they might look at painting them but I'd bet that's going to be about it.

I think it's a decent political move. Network Rail would be well within their rights to just say 'it's our land and we have the right to develop as we see fit'. But I think this slightly softer approach, which in the grand scheme of things won't cost much, makes plenty of sense.
 

Who Cares

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I think that this is the game that Network Rail are playing. Make all nice noises and make it sound as if they're doing loads of engagement and consultation but at the end of the day they're going to get what they want. Best case they might look at painting them but I'd bet that's going to be about it.

I think it's a decent political move. Network Rail would be well within their rights to just say 'it's our land and we have the right to develop as we see fit'. But I think this slightly softer approach, which in the grand scheme of things won't cost much, makes plenty of sense.

Re NR's tactics....I'm absolutely sure you're correct....Done the same myself many times when it was necessary to ' be seen to be doing something '....

And painting them has always been a reasonable option for mitigation, and if NR had gone through a proper consultation process following their own Environmental Assessment in 2012, the OLE could have been delivered directly from F&F with a suitable epoxy ( is it ? ) coating as it will be much more expensive ( and difficult ! ) to do this retrospectively....
 
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GRALISTAIR

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And painting them has always been a reasonable option for mitigation, and if NR had gone through a proper consultation process following their own Environmental Assessment in 2012, the OLE could have been delivered directly from F&F with a suitable epoxy ( is it ? ) coating as it will be much more expensive ( and difficult ! ) to do this retrospectively....

The problem with epoxy is that it has poor UV resistance (and not outstanding abrasion resistance either). If it were me specifying the coating I would want a 2K aliphatic Polyurethane with added UV absorbers/HALS in, as topcoat.

I totally agree more difficult and expensive to do retrospectively. Galv is notoriously difficult to coat - weathered galv even more so - definitely need a good etch primer too.
 

tsangpogorge

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On a completely unrelated note, is the line really being upgraded for 140mph running? thought it was just 125mph with journey time savings based on the faster acceleration of electric trains.
 

jimm

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JIMM....

Why do you bother even looking at that Site if it gets you so worked up ?

MC has already confirmed that funds for replacement of the existing OLE were included in the lastest costs-to-completion estimates - just not ringfenced....But given NR's seriously and hopelessly pathetic record on cost overspends on this project, they'll probably be used up on any number of things that have been overlooked / forgotten about / incorrectly designed / deliberately time and cost underestimated / etc / etc / etc....

Worked up? What on earth makes you think you can draw that conclusion from my posts yesterday and today, I really have no idea. That the RAG website is rather long on spin is plain to see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On a completely unrelated note, is the line really being upgraded for 140mph running? thought it was just 125mph with journey time savings based on the faster acceleration of electric trains.

Current plans are for 125mph running but the new trains are designed to be 140mph-capable, as is the Series 1 catenary.
 

route:oxford

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Are these people mental? - Just been reading the Facebook comments.

"NR are bunch of total idiots, continuing to rape our countryside and waste tax payers' money at every step of this whole sorry project."

If they were real country folk, they'd be more than familiar with the fields of rape throughout Oxfordshire's countryside.

The "N" word springs to mind.
 

Domh245

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If they were real country folk, they'd be more than familiar with the fields of rape throughout Oxfordshire's countryside.

The "N" word springs to mind.

Perhaps the OLE should be painted bright yellow then for that natural look! :lol:
 

route:oxford

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And to ASYLUMXL....

Suggest you read the whole thread again....House prices in the Goring Gap WILL NOT increase in value as a result of this Project as the residents of the Goring Gap and the AsONB are unlikely to have any benefits from ' improvements to services '.....We've already been through that several times.....Maybe residents of Swindon, Chippenham, etc, but not those you mention....

Utter fantasy on your part, no matter how often you repeat it.

Since the electrification of the GWR line was announced in 2012, the "sparks effect" has resulted in a massive surge of around 30% in house prices in Goring. Rather than your frequent insistence that it is an undesirable location and to expect 0% growth.
 

asylumxl

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And to ASYLUMXL....

Suggest you read the whole thread again....House prices in the Goring Gap WILL NOT increase in value as a result of this Project as the residents of the Goring Gap and the AsONB are unlikely to have any benefits from ' improvements to services '.....We've already been through that several times.....Maybe residents of Swindon, Chippenham, etc, but not those you mention....

I've read the thread and all I saw was you telling people how it won't benefit you, your immediate family or the residents.

Now, while I'm not an expert on the area, does Goring not have a station situated on the Great Western Main Line? I believe it does. Are you honestly going to tell me no residents of the Goring Gap use it?

While electrification may not bring major improvements to services from Goring, generally the superior acceleration of EMUs and the track capacity increase (from both the wires and signalling upgrades) will allow for modest journey time improvement and a more robust service.

In terms of the future, the work could allow for an increase in frequency from Goring, particularly if coupled with further improvements. I don't see how that won't benefit the residents.

I might be totally wrong, but it's generally accepted that electrification brings benefits to railways and surrounding areas.
 

Elecman

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The problem with epoxy is that it has poor UV resistance (and not outstanding abrasion resistance either). If it were me specifying the coating I would want a 2K aliphatic Polyurethane with added UV absorbers/HALS in, as topcoat.

I totally agree more difficult and expensive to do retrospectively. Galv is notoriously difficult to coat - weathered galv even more so - definitely need a good etch primer too.

Paint on Galv rarely works and looks awful as it soon starts to peel off, would therefore be an almighty ongoing maintenance headache as presumably NR would have to give an undertaking to maintain the paintwork requiring regular possessions and isolation to carry the necessary repainting. Far better left as if is to weather in .
 

Who Cares

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:D I agree- but trying to appease an obvious NIMBY.

Brilliant quote....Thanks a lot !!

But just to be clear....Are the residents of the Goring Gap NIMBYs, afraid that the value of their houses will go down....Or greedy, ungrateful homeowners who are suddenly going to have the benefit of increased house prices ??

I'll tell you what....Maybe the anorak-wearing, thermos-flask-holding enthusiasts on here should have a discussion amongst yourselves, and when you've decided which is the correct description, let me know....
 
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GRALISTAIR

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Brilliant quote....Thanks a lot !!

You are welcome - feel free to use it without attribution.

But just to be clear....Are the residents of the Goring Gap NIMBYs, afraid that the value of their houses will go down....Or greedy, ungrateful homeowners who are suddenly going to have the benefit of increased house prices ??

I really honestly do not care nor have I raised the issue - and I think we are into ad hominem/strawman/circular reasoning arguments here. I live in the birthplace of aviation and have a passion for railways-aviation and progress. All I know from reading all the posts (yours in particular) and the Goring Gap website - there appears to be a lot of name calling etc - and that gets nobody anywhere fast. I think if you guys toned down the rhetoric it may get you more sympathy.

After decades and decades of under investment in railways by all governments, we are at last seeing another golden age in railways which are a very environmentally friendly way of travel. So seeing some (IMHO NIMBYs ) trying to stop progress is very frustrating to say the least. I think we need the railway electrifying and give it a few years too see what happens to house prices and the environment (and infrastructure- gantries etc ) not looking too bad etc- in other words some patience.

Inflammatory language against NR etc does not cut it with me.

I'll tell you what....Maybe the anorak-wearing, thermos-flask-holding enthusiasts on here should have a discussion amongst yourselves, and when you've decided which is the correct description, let me know....

?? Themselves? Must be well over 40 years since I wore an anorak. I tend not to use thermos -if I want a coffee/tea/pint/wine I will buy one thanks. I think all on here are more than capable of adding what ever description they want and have no need to "decide amongst themselves". Many are very highly educated indeed. You could argue that NIMBY is usually regarded as slightly derogatory and for that I am sorry, but as I said - name calling does not help. Help or hinder progress - I want to help.
 
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Who Cares

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Apology accepted and, in your own case, offered in return....

I also posted earlier a 'Thank You' for explanation regarding epoxy, etc, but it seems to have vanished into the ether....
 
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Lurpi

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I think that this is the game that Network Rail are playing. Make all nice noises and make it sound as if they're doing loads of engagement and consultation but at the end of the day they're going to get what they want. Best case they might look at painting them but I'd bet that's going to be about it.

I think it's a decent political move. Network Rail would be well within their rights to just say 'it's our land and we have the right to develop as we see fit'. But I think this slightly softer approach, which in the grand scheme of things won't cost much, makes plenty of sense.

This is what I'm on about!

With respect, several of you have said previously that NR would brush off the Save the Goring Gap mob with a polite version of 'sod off' (and I said I hoped they would).

But look at the record. That has not happened. Look at where we've come from, and you will see where we are headed.

Far from it: NR has engaged and Mark Carne has personally promised that his company intends to install replacement OLE, subject to the inevitable caveats about funding (which you'd get in any public works project). Contractors have already been commissioned to design the equipment and consult on the environmental impact.

But they can reject it on cost grounds, I hear you say. No: they have already made space in the GWEP budget for it. The RAG website says:
NR re-affirmed that there is now a line in the overall £2.8billion GWR electrification budget* for the Goring Gap/AONB refrofit.

I get that you may have to take them with a pinch of salt, but unless they are lying through their teeth I think we probably have to accept that that did happen - just as it did happen that someone from NR's side mentioned headspans. Not just in passing, but described them - I doubt RAG count many OLE experts among their number.

Headspans may well be rubbish, but I don't believe that they have been excluded from the designs. Not unless there's another outright lie here (from the RAG news page):

NR managers confirmed that they are well under way with moving from concepts for new designs to more practicable designs. These include ‘wire-head spans’ (instead of the heavy solid horizontal metal structures currently being used) and thinner, more tubular versions of the upright supports.

You have to consider the politics too - I think some local MPs have raised the matter and, with the government's slim majority, they can carry weight. It wouldn't surprise me if the DfT had leaned on NR over this issue and told them to back down. It's not just a matter of what the planning rules say; I don't think NR can afford to look like they are ignoring angry mobs (cf. Christmas 2014 engineering works).

It's no good accusing RAG of exaggerating: the record doesn't bear that out. Much as I don't like it, they are delivering on their mission. And much as Mr Phlopp is good value on this niche trainspotter message board, he isn't the chief executive of NR - who is giving out a very different message.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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"Point of order Mr Speaker:"

Don't forget that their attempt to get 10,000 signatures on a petition to force a Parliamentary debate ended with just 1,200 names on the list.

10,000 signatures merely elicits a government response (could easily be meaningless statement of spin from a suitable civil servant). A Parliamentary debate requires 100,000 signatures; very few petitions have ever achieved this, perhaps as few as three so far (awaits correction...)
 

cjmillsnun

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Brilliant quote....Thanks a lot !!

But just to be clear....Are the residents of the Goring Gap NIMBYs, afraid that the value of their houses will go down....Or greedy, ungrateful homeowners who are suddenly going to have the benefit of increased house prices ??

I'll tell you what....Maybe the anorak-wearing, thermos-flask-holding enthusiasts on here should have a discussion amongst yourselves, and when you've decided which is the correct description, let me know....

The value of your house won't go down. It's been increasing steadily and will continue to follow national trends. I don't think you're greedy, but should look at this with an objective view. These structures are new and are at their most visually intrusive right now. After a couple of years, they will start to weather in and be far less intrusive especially as trees will start to grow back and shield the cables from view.
 

Tio Terry

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140mph was going to be one of the benefits of ERTMS wasn't it?

Not was, is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is what I'm on about!

With respect, several of you have said previously that NR would brush off the Save the Goring Gap mob with a polite version of 'sod off' (and I said I hoped they would).

But look at the record. That has not happened. Look at where we've come from, and you will see where we are headed.

Far from it: NR has engaged and Mark Carne has personally promised that his company intends to install replacement OLE, subject to the inevitable caveats about funding (which you'd get in any public works project). Contractors have already been commissioned to design the equipment and consult on the environmental impact.

But they can reject it on cost grounds, I hear you say. No: they have already made space in the GWEP budget for it. The RAG website says:


I get that you may have to take them with a pinch of salt, but unless they are lying through their teeth I think we probably have to accept that that did happen - just as it did happen that someone from NR's side mentioned headspans. Not just in passing, but described them - I doubt RAG count many OLE experts among their number.

Headspans may well be rubbish, but I don't believe that they have been excluded from the designs. Not unless there's another outright lie here (from the RAG news page):



You have to consider the politics too - I think some local MPs have raised the matter and, with the government's slim majority, they can carry weight. It wouldn't surprise me if the DfT had leaned on NR over this issue and told them to back down. It's not just a matter of what the planning rules say; I don't think NR can afford to look like they are ignoring angry mobs (cf. Christmas 2014 engineering works).

It's no good accusing RAG of exaggerating: the record doesn't bear that out. Much as I don't like it, they are delivering on their mission. And much as Mr Phlopp is good value on this niche trainspotter message board, he isn't the chief executive of NR - who is giving out a very different message.

I wouldn't get to excited about lines in budgets, there's probably one for moving Greater Crested Newts, just in case they need to, not because they know they have to.

Also, just consider, to be able to run at the desired 140mph with headspans the distance between them will need to be less than the current designs to reduce movement. That means more - not less - masts.
 
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