Goring Gap/AONBs and Electrification of the GWML

[Philip Phlopp]

The only place the tubular design is being used is on the bridges. I expect Mr Phlopp may know what the taller masts are for, presumably supporting cabling or equipment for the autotransformer feed.

Cholsey switching station (aka Cholsey ATS) which is indeed the site shown in the photograph.

 

[HowardGWR]

I see this is still running. Just out of interest, there are two AsONB involved, Chilterns and North Wessex Downs. They border the river on south and north sides and also the latter one spreads over the line near Didcot. If you google with the names and add 'map' to the search criteria, you will see it for yourself. Thus, 'Goring Gap' is far too limited a description of the AONB areas.

Also of interest is that the two AONB management committees are only advisory. The planning authorities, through which the line also snakes, are the ones with planning jurisdiction. They only have powers in respect of any listed buildings such as one or two bridges, I believe, and not areas that are exempt from development control - such as the GWML curtilage. Thus we are talking of more than one planning authority that are potentially involved in some issues.

 

[coppercapped]

But worryingly there is talk about DaFT changing the order for Hitachi to provide bi-modes rather than electrics.

The travelling public could be paying for all this by riding in non-ideal trains for 40y.

This possibility has been in the public realm for at least 6 months - the first I heard of it was at a presentation by Hitachi to a meeting of the IMechE towards the end of last year.
It was made clear that any decision would have to be made 'soon' as the bi-mode body structures are different from the straight electric ones. For example, they have to include a whole set of additional mounting brackets for the engine rafts, exhaust pipes and cabling. In addition the power packs have to be ordered, obviously there is a significant lead time involved, and things like fuel tanks, exhaust systems and so on.

Removing the power packs is a lot easier than adding them to an already built electric set.

I would suggest that the longer the time goes by with no announcement, the less likely the chances of a change in the DfT's contract with Agility Trains. This would lend support to Mr Phlopp's recent hint that the work rate of the GWML electrification has recently improved considerably.

Whereas 6 months ago I thought there would be a good chance that all the GW sets would be bi-mode, now I reckon there won't be any change. (And next week the DfT will make an announcement... )

 

[QueensCurve]

That is because of the delays in wiring west of Didcot, while at the same time allowing the new trains to enter service as scheduled and enabling GWR to release the HSTs that are going to Scotland. Not because of anything that might happen to the overhead east of Didcot.

I understand why it is happening. The consequence is the same.

 

[HowardGWR]

I understand why it is happening. The consequence is the same.

Even if all trains were bi-mode, there is not a chance this side of the Rapture that the wires will not go (stay) up between Reading and Didcot.

 

[jimm]

I understand why it is happening. The consequence is the same.

What consequence? That the GWML has modern trains - whatever the propulsion equipment under the floor. The diesel element of which can be removed if no longer required, should more sets be built initially as bi-modes. We still don't know if they will be anyway, so why are you worried?

And the possibility that additional AT300 bi-modes may be ordered to extend the West Country production run might just deliver enough 'go-anywhere' units to get GWR through the period of uncertainty on wiring completion rates and mean the 801s are indeed still delivered as straight electric sets.

 

[QueensCurve]

What consequence? That the GWML has modern trains - whatever the propulsion equipment under the floor. The diesel element of which can be removed if no longer required, should more sets be built initially as bi-modes. We still don't know if they will be anyway, so why are you worried?

If nothing else, there will be a step up into the coaches with the underfloor diesels.

what is the latest on "bi mode" operation? Will the diesels run only when off the wires?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

what is the latest on "bi mode" operation? Will the diesels run only when off the wires?

Yes. The engines are pre-heated when on electric operation though.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes. The engines are pre-heated when on electric operation though.

Does that mean they'll be rumbling underfloor, or just kept hot by the electrics?

 

[jimm]

If nothing else, there will be a step up into the coaches with the underfloor diesels.

what is the latest on "bi mode" operation? Will the diesels run only when off the wires?

What do you mean step up? The exterior doors on the bi-modes are at the same height relative to the platforms as on the electric sets. The raised floor is in the saloon area of the coaches and there is a ramp, not a step, in the floor inside the train.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Does that mean they'll be rumbling underfloor, or just kept hot by the electrics?

Just kept hot - electric water pump, electric heating system. MTU use the same technology on the 16V4000 in the HST sets to keep them warm overnight without having to leave them running.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Just kept hot - electric water pump, electric heating system. MTU use the same technology on the 16V4000 in the HST sets to keep them warm overnight without having to leave them running.

That's good. How long is a hot start planned to take?

 

[coppercapped]

That's good. How long is a hot start planned to take?

If it's anything like DB starting its locomotives which are fitted with the same engine as the HSTs (but set at their full rating) when the train is ready to depart from Munich Hbf - about 20 secs. The train leaves a minute or so later.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That's good. How long is a hot start planned to take?

That I'm not so sure about. I think it will depend on ambient temperature so it will take longer in winter than in summer.

 

[Dixie]

I cycled across our local electrified line on Sunday morning. It is interesting that the entire lineside is covered in very mature trees that come with a metre of the catenary wires. Here there is no sign of tree removal. The large mast assembly with the wires on top is a lineside switch. This comes particularly close to the adjacent tree.

 

[Trog]

I cycled across our local electrified line on Sunday morning. It is interesting that the entire lineside is covered in very mature trees that come with a metre of the catenary wires. Here there is no sign of tree removal. The large mast assembly with the wires on top is a lineside switch. This comes particularly close to the adjacent tree.

What about all that brown stuff lying on the bank in the back ground, evidence of small tree / bush removal?

But as you say more needs doing. Sadly these days the more effective weed killers used by BR are no longer available for use, and there are not the staff or money to trim it all manually.

 

[coppercapped]

I cycled across our local electrified line on Sunday morning. It is interesting that the entire lineside is covered in very mature trees that come with a metre of the catenary wires. Here there is no sign of tree removal. The large mast assembly with the wires on top is a lineside switch. This comes particularly close to the adjacent tree.

I assume the local electrified line is not the GW? The overhead design doesn't look much like that being fitted to the route west of Tilehurst.

 

[Domh245]

I assume the local electrified line is not the GW? The overhead design doesn't look much like that being fitted to the route west of Tilehurst.

It's Mk1 equipment so will be WCML area

Edit: Or GEML!

 

[Trog]

It's Mk1 equipment so will be WCML area

With a round pole in the foreground that suggests somewhere up north. As I don't think we have any of them at the south end of the WCML.

 

[Dixie]

It's Mk1 equipment so will be WCML area

WCML is correct, South Liverpool. I don't know what the brown area is, but it was probably weed rather than tress or bushes.

Quite a lot of vegetation was removed when the Liverpool - Manchester line was recently electrified, but nothing as severe as appears to have happened along the GWML. Also, whilst it may not be suitable for such high speeds, the type of catenary used on that line was much more aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

WCML is correct, South Liverpool. I don't know what the brown area is, but it was probably weed rather than tress or bushes.

Quite a lot of vegetation was removed when the Liverpool - Manchester line was recently electrified, but nothing as severe as appears to have happened along the GWML. Also, whilst it may not be suitable for such high speeds, the type of catenary used on that line was much more aesthetically pleasing.

It depends on a number of factors, but we usually remove the same amount everywhere, any differences are usually explained by when the vegetation is cleared, as to how bad it all looks.

If there's invasive species, diseased trees or other ground issues, then the amount removed may be greater or handled differently, but we don't take out more than we have to.

 

[AM9]

... Also, whilst it may not be suitable for such high speeds, the type of catenary used on that line was much more aesthetically pleasing.

It's difficult comparing the twin track OLE of the Chat Moss line with the necessarily more substantial portals on the four-track sections of the GWML. The hardware on the wide section between Roby Junction and Huyton is visually similar to the four-track series 1near Goring anyway.

 

[Dixie]

The hardware on the wide section between Roby Junction and Huyton is visually similar to the four-track series 1 near Goring anyway.

The key difference for me is that the Chat moss hardware looks like it was designed as a whole, whereas the horizontal members on the GWML look like an afterthought. What I particularly don't like it is the way the horizontal members hang on the uprights. Just looks odd and a mismatch. Just my thoughts.

 

[jimm]

Should anyone wish to read the usual heavily-spun account from RAG of their latest meeting with Network Rail, it can be found here.

http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/news.html

The famous letter from Mark Carne to the AONBs wasn't actually sent until May 3, ahead of a separate meeting between Network Rail and the AONBs the following day and really adds nothing to what is already known anyway - as usual hedged with all manner of caveats and mentions of public money, etc.

http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/upl...ter_from_mark_carne_to_aonbs_-_5_may_2016.pdf

Henley Standard story, with a few lines from Network Rail and the usual threats of lawyers from the campaign group.

http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=42176

CONSULTATION on new, slimmer steel gantries for the railway line through Goring will be held in September.

Network Rail is drawing up alternative designs for the structures, which are being installed as part of the electrification of the Great Western main line which passes through the village and surrounding countryside.

Over the next four months, the company will review dozens of designs by its engineering contractor Balfour Beatty and then shortlist three or four which would have the least impact on the surroundings.

A landscape expert will be brought in to help with this process, along with representatives of Historic England, Natural England and the Campaign to Protect Rural England.

The shortlisted designs will then be subject to the six-to eight-week consultation that will include public meetings.

The new gantries could include thinner support poles and wire head spans across the track instead of solid steel girders. However, Network Rail has stressed that it may be unable to afford them...

...A Network Rail spokeswoman said: “We are aiming to start the public consultation in September. This will include alternative designs but will not be limited to this.

“For example, a number of people said they wanted us to paint the equipment. This will therefore be an option.”

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It's absolute chaos at the moment, with the test section going live, the Severn Tunnel test works heating up and the Chiltern AONB complaining.

It's not looking good for there being any money to replace the route through the Chilterns this side of CP6 and HS2's people are apparently going around doing Malcolm Tucker impersonations if NR cave in to the Goring Gappers.

 

[nidave]

Are these people mental? - Just been reading the Facebook comments.

"NR are bunch of total idiots, continuing to rape our countryside and waste tax payers' money at every step of this whole sorry project."

and this one

Of course I'd sooner see the whole lot torn down (-particularly as diesel-engined trains don't need OLE!), but realistically with NR be able to afford to replace the current OLE design?

the whole thing seems like its all me, me, me and how this impacts my life not the good of the users of the line. But I am not that surprised.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

the whole thing seems like its all me, me, me and how this impacts my life not the good of the users of the line. But I am not that surprised.

I'd be surprised if there's not a counter petition asking that NR be barred from spending money to replace the OLE in the Goring Gap, but that the money is instead spent on something like the level crossing closures program or the access for all station program.

 

[MarkRedon]

I'd be surprised if there's not a counter petition asking that NR be barred from spending money to replace the OLE in the Goring Gap, but that the money is instead spent on something like the level crossing closures program or the access for all station program.

That, or something like it, is probably a seriously good idea; what can I sign and when?

Giving in to the Goring Gap protesters is the thin end of a very large wedge. In particular, I already fear that it will be extremely difficult actually to build HS2 because an unholy alliance of Barbour-jacketed green welly wearers and huggers of trees risk hugely extending the delivery time and costs for the project.

Please do not get me wrong. We need trees and open vistas and I am very fond of them! But we also need electrified railways in order to reduce the enormous environmental damage done by demands for personal mobility.

 

[Rich McLean]

That, or something like it, is probably a seriously good idea; what can I sign and when?

Giving in to the Goring Gap protesters is the thin end of a very large wedge. In particular, I already fear that it will be extremely difficult actually to build HS2 because an unholy alliance of Barbour-jacketed green welly wearers and huggers of trees risk hugely extending the delivery time and costs for the project.

Please do not get me wrong. We need trees and open vistas and I am very fond of them! But we also need electrified railways in order to reduce the enormous environmental damage done by demands for personal mobility.

If the Goring residents had their way, there would be a gap in the wiring in the Goring Gap, and trains run under diesel power (yes the 387s are full electric). They will still moan if the infrastructure is changed, and that section could result in a lower line speed (100-110mph) to account for a flimsier design.

The difference at Sydney Garden's is that the line speed is significantly lower so more pleasing infrastructure is more practicable to install

 

[Lurpi]

Notwithstanding that Philip Phlopp (who works for NR, correct me if I'm wrong) has repeatedly ruled out on this board that headspans are on the table for Goring Gap, this line from the Save the Goring Gap website linked to above is troubling:

NR managers confirmed that they are well under way with moving from concepts for new designs to more practicable designs. These include ‘wire-head spans’ (instead of the heavy solid horizontal metal structures currently being used) and thinner, more tubular versions of the upright supports.

This detail doesn't sound like it came from nowhere. Somebody must have mentioned headspans.

Repeatedly there've been suggestions on this board that the Save the Goring Gap mob wouldn't get anything. Then it turned out they might get something. Now it looks like they probably will - and what's more, it might be the dreaded headspan, unless someone can categorically shoot this down.

I note also what Philip says above about HS2. Clearly a situation where people get it into their heads that you can have 400 kph trains running off headspans must be avoided at all costs.