Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Secrettraindri]

A high profile organisation that is there to represent its member's rights and not to place itself to the fore of socialist political matters, but as it deliberately puts out press releases couched in socialist style of stock phrases that hark back to the 1970's, it certainly deserves every "cheap shot" aimed at it. As for poor grammar, I will let that matter speak for itself.

I remain convinced that the union is not unlike the current Labour Party in its high level power base of those left-wing factions in the party who have seized upon the opportunity to fill the gap after the last leadership election.

Perhaps because when you are dealing with a new right government and a firm that treats its employees as Southern has done so, such phrases are still valid?

How about tipping things on their head and examining the usual tired phrases that come from that other side of the dispute that refuse to acknowledge there might be problems for the staff and the public stemming from their actions which they refuse to discuss?

 

[alastair]

Hardly embarrassing.

You really don't consider it embarrassing that RMT apparently employs someone to draft press releases who cannot even use the word "their" or "there" correctly?

The complete amateurish and ranting manner of RMT communications does nothing whatever to highlight the important points of this dispute to the general public. Quite the opposite in fact,many will just "switch off" without even reading it . If I was an RMT member I would be pretty concerned about this.

 

[Secrettraindri]

You really don't consider it embarrassing that RMT apparently employs someone to draft press releases who cannot even use the word "their" or "there" correctly?

The complete amateurish and ranting manner of RMT communications does nothing whatever to highlight the important points of this dispute to the general public. Quite the opposite in fact,many will just "switch off" without even reading it . If I was an RMT member I would be pretty concerned about this.

If you'd seen as many strangled communications from Southern as I have then you would be less quick to attack the RMT, believe me.

 

[HLE]

You really don't consider it embarrassing that RMT apparently employs someone to draft press releases who cannot even use the word "their" or "there" correctly?

The complete amateurish and ranting manner of RMT communications does nothing whatever to highlight the important points of this dispute to the general public. Quite the opposite in fact,many will just "switch off" without even reading it . If I was an RMT member I would be pretty concerned about this.

No I don't consider it embarrassing.

Yes, their communication on this whole saga hasn't been great and I agree with those who say they miss Bob Crow.

Unfortunately their will always be articles written that are grammatically incorrect. The BBC are the worst ones for it. The latest trend seems to be to capitalise words that don't need to start with a capital. That's poor grammar.

 

[hounddog]

Unfortunately their will always be articles written that are grammatically incorrect.

You said it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps because when you are dealing with a new right government and a firm that treats its employees as Southern has done so, such phrases are still valid?

Look, this is the 21st century and if the union wishes to fight against what you say above, let it do so in a 21st century manner that will show that it is a modern organisation representing its membership and then people will give far more credence to up-to-date language in its press releases that are phrased in the actuality of 21st century life.

 

[HowardGWR]

You said it.

There (phew) is a word for this unfortunate problem of spelling or grammar correctors themselves making an error and if anyone can supply it I would be grateful. OT.

 

[BRblue]

Look, this is the 21st century and if the union wishes to fight against what you say above, let it do so in a 21st century manner that will show that it is a modern organisation representing its membership and then people will give far more credence to up-to-date language in its press releases that are phrased in the actuality of 21st century life.

Paul, you only have to look through this thread to realise that many would despise the unions even if they did embrace the 21st century.... just look at all the "back to the 1970's" comments. Many people will never give credence to a union whether or not they use up-to-date language.
IMHO it really doesn't matter what they say or how they say it, in a lot of peoples eyes the unions always have been and always will be public enemy number one.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Paul, you only have to look through this thread to realise that many would despise the unions even if they did embrace the 21st century.... just look at all the "back to the 1970's" comments. Many people will never give credence to a union whether or not they use up-to-date language.
IMHO it really doesn't matter what they say or how they say it, in a lot of peoples eyes the unions always have been and always will be public enemy number one.

While you folks squabble about meanings and language, I am more worried about how I know if my train has a OBS person on board if I am unable to book 24 hours in advance.

If not, what do I do about getting off at an unstaffed platform if communication fails?

I could press the help point button at a station, but it connects to an off shore call centre and they can't connect me to the assist team.

Focus people.....

 

[JamesTT]

While you folks squabble about meanings and language, I am more worried about how I know if my train has a OBS person on board if I am unable to book 24 hours in advance.

If not, what do I do about getting off at an unstaffed platform if communication fails?

I could press the help point button at a station, but it connects to an off shore call centre and they can't connect me to the assist team.

Focus people.....

Surely this is something the RMT should be focusing on.

 

[desk_wizard]

There (phew) is a word for this unfortunate problem of spelling or grammar correctors themselves making an error and if anyone can supply it I would be grateful. OT.

muphry's law, of course

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

 

[D1009]

The June Modern Railways, which has just come out has what in my view is a very balanced editorial on the dispute. However, they claim GTR/Southern is a concession rather than a franchise. Is this true?

 

[ainsworth74]

Yup absolutely true. With the complexity of delivering Thameslink and London Bridge (and now I wonder if also DOO might have been included on that list) I believe a full franchise was felt in appropriate

 

[speedy_sticks]

What's the difference legally speaking?

 

[hwl]

What's the difference legally speaking?

The ticket revenue goes to DfT and TSGN get paid according to how they deliver against DfT's agreed metrics. (Very similar to how TfL control London Overground operated by Arriva (formerly MTR+Arriva)).
The Contractor has far less freedom and takes far more instruction from the contractee. e.g. TSGN don't sneeze without DfT's permission.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The June Modern Railways, which has just come out has what in my view is a very balanced editorial on the dispute. However, they claim GTR/Southern is a concession rather than a franchise. Is this true?

Which is why people have been saying since the beginning of this thread this is all the doing of the DfT

 

[speedy_sticks]

Might explain why Claire Perry is so desperate to this work!

 

[infobleep]

FROM RMT PRESS OFFICE
Immediate
RMT demands action from Government as even Tory MP's are now queuing up to demand that GTR be stripped of their franchise
RAIL UNION RMT today stepped up the pressure for Government action on basket-case rail franchise GTR as even Tory MP's have begun queuing up to demand that they be stripped of the Southern and Thameslink franchises.
Tories from Lewes and Croydon have been forced to wade in after a campaign of pressure from RMT has mobilised thousands of passengers against axing guards and closing ticket offices.
Lewes MP Maria Caulfield said in her local paper;
“Despite repeated attempts by MPs across Sussex to ask Southern Rail to improve their services, this month sees the worst performance to date with figures showing Southern and Thameslink being the worst performing operators.
“My constituents can take no more and are fed up with cancellations, late running trains, strikes and early terminations. I have asked to meet with the rail minister as a matter of urgency.”
Conservative Croydon South MP Chris Philp said in the Standard that;
"Southern Railways should be immediately stripped of its franchise because performance levels are getting worse for thousands of passengers despite promises to improve."
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;
"GTR have waged war against both their staff and their passengers and with even Tories now lining up to stick the boot in its time for this mob to be thrown off the railway with the public sector given a chance to sort this mess out.
"No amount of fare-payers money blown on advertising, and no amount of abuse of their own staff, can spin GTR out of this one. The attack on the guards, safety and ticket offices is all part of an overall picture of a privatised rail franchise in total meltdown.
"The game is up, the racket is over and the Government should be forced to step in immediately. "
Ends

This is the best press release I've seen from the RMT yet on the dispute.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely this is something the RMT should be focusing on.

Why when they can focus on fat city profits and money going to France?

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From the Evening Standard:

Southern must lose franchise after week of rail misery, says MP

An MP today called on ministers to “end the Southern misery now” after nearly a third of the rail firm’s trains were late or cancelled in a single day this week.

Conservative Chris Philp said Southern Railways should be “immediately” stripped of its franchise because performance levels were getting worse for thousands of passengers despite promises to improve.

He branded Govia Thameslink Railway, which owns Southern, the worst of the UK’s 21 rail franchises, with 18 per cent of GTR trains running late, including five per cent over 30 minutes late or cancelled.

According to official figures, the problems were so bad on Monday this week that 675 of GTR’s 3,167 trains were between five and 30 minutes late, while a further 322 were cancelled or more than 30 minutes late.

The company said “unusually high” levels of sickness among conductors caused extra cancellations on Monday on top of major engineering works at London Bridge. The most recent figures showed lateness down to 16 per cent.

“GTR offer the worst service in the country, and it is getting worse,” said Croydon South MP Mr Philp.

“My constituents’ lives are being made a misery by the continual cancellations, lateness, station skipping and over-crowding.

“This franchise is too big and unmanageable, and is being very badly run at present. I am therefore calling for the franchise to be removed from GTR immediately and broken up into smaller franchises.”

Suburban commuter lines are due to be transferred to Transport for London by 2021 but new Mayor Sadiq Khan has said it will be his “top priority” to speed it up.

However, rail minister Claire Perry told the Standard that she was “fully committed to working with Southern” to raise standards.

“I know that passengers are frustrated and aren’t always getting the service they deserve,” she said.

“The operator is making improvements that will benefit passengers, including training more new drivers and introducing new state-of-the-art Gatwick Express trains on Southern routes.

“We are closely monitoring progress and remain fully committed to working with Southern to get this railway back to high performance.”

A GTR spokesman said: “We are doing our very best to improve punctuality to give passengers the quality service they deserve.

“This is particularly challenging given the recent strike action and the rebuilding work at London Bridge which has further constrained our busy network.”

He said the company was “transforming the railway” with new carriages, smartcards and free station Wi-Fi. GTR this week unveiled new Class 700 trains for the Brighton main line, promising more space and better information.

Labour MP Chuka Umunna accused the company of “fobbing customers off with excuse after excuse” and called on the Government to “get a grip”.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ter-week-of-rail-misery-says-mp-a3257331.html

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[alastair]

The ticket revenue goes to DfT and TSGN get paid according to how they deliver against DfT's agreed metrics. (Very similar to how TfL control London Overground operated by Arriva (formerly MTR+Arriva)).
The Contractor has far less freedom and takes far more instruction from the contractee. e.g. TSGN don't sneeze without DfT's permission.

Which of course,makes a nonsense of this statement from the RMT from only 2 days ago:

" Instead of ramping up the union bashing in the drive to milk this franchise for millions of pounds to subsidise their French operations at the expense of British fare payers," :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is the best press release I've seen from the RMT yet on the dispute.

This of course is yet another RMT press release where it did not find very long to play their game of "spot the deliberate mistake" and to see the phrase..."basket-case rail franchise".

I do have to ask myself why the organisation that the RMT is dealing with in this matter is not known to those charged with the release of such RMT press releases as being that of a concession and not a franchise.

ainsworth74 seemed to be aware of this difference when he made his posting # 2593 on this thread.
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Why, when they can focus on fat city profits and money going to France?

There are a number of British towns and cities where a cursory glance at some of the local residents would indeed to deserve the title of "fat city" which would be most applicable, as one could think that not only do we have immigration from areas nearby, but that the elephant seals have also decided conjoin with them to enjoy the benefits that Britain offers.....

 

[HLE]

You said it.

See what I did?

 

[DelayRepay]

For what it's worth, I find the RMT's press releases very poor, and I say this as someone who is a union member, has always supported the trade union movement and whose father spent his entire working life as a trade union officer.

The purpose of the press release should be to convince Southern's customers that the inconvenience of a strike is a price worth paying. They should be focused on why we need guards, the safety implications of operating without guards and the issues a lack of guards will cause for passengers including but not limited to those who need assistance due to a disability.

They should also accept that the a significant number of Southern commuters are Conservative voters and should therefore welcome the support of Conservative MPs instead of the "even tories..." line in their latest commentary.

 

[infobleep]

For what it's worth, I find the RMT's press releases very poor, and I say this as someone who is a union member, has always supported the trade union movement and whose father spent his entire working life as a trade union officer.

The purpose of the press release should be to convince Southern's customers that the inconvenience of a strike is a price worth paying. They should be focused on why we need guards, the safety implications of operating without guards and the issues a lack of guards will cause for passengers including but not limited to those who need assistance due to a disability.

They should also accept that the a significant number of Southern commuters are Conservative voters and should therefore welcome the support of Conservative MPs instead of the "even tories..." line in their latest commentary.

A conspiracy theorist might think that GTR had infiltrated the union and paid someone to write the press releases.

GTR must be rubbing their hands with glee at them!

Such a shame. Is there anyone on this forum who is a union member who can tell them what they are writing doesn't come across well? Or do people higher up in the union not listen to members concerns?

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[Xenophon PCDGS]

Such a shame. Is there anyone on this forum who is a union member who can tell them what they are writing doesn't come across well? Or do people higher up in the union not listen to members concerns?

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As I have often said before, those leading the union are far more concerned with putting forth an old-style Socialist message with many phrases in their many press releases lifted straight from the Fred Kite handbook of "Union-Speak", that does nothing whatsoever for people in the 21st century,

 

[infobleep]

As I have often said before, those leading the union are far more concerned with putting forth an old-style Socialist message with many phrases in their many press releases lifted straight from the Fred Kite handbook of "Union-Speak", that does nothing whatsoever for people in the 21st century,

It would actually put me off joining a union. When I've had the option to join a union in the past I haven't.

If I worked for GTR, I would definitely join a union though but wouldn't be happy with the press releases. So I'd be stuck in the middle. Not entirely happy with the union and most definitely not happy with GTR and DfT.

I wonder what the Twitter and communications staff working for GTR think of all of this. They have to put out the official message from GTR.


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[OuterDistant]

I've been watching this one from the sidelines with interest (I'm a union member myself - not the RMT), but I'm now finding it hard to see it ending with anything other than an easy win for GTR.

Those RMT press releases are a disaster. They are irrelevant, red-faced rants, and there's no way that any organisation that tries to make their case like that will ever be winning any concessions from anyone. I think the RMT's members need to kick down the door of their press office and ask what the hell they're playing at.

Please do try and prove me wrong.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I personally left the union due to the self-centred actions and representation and the poor attitude towards the work colleagues of the local union representative. Although I moved depots I still steadfastly refused to rejoin while this same individual continued to represent the union, even tho the reps at my new depot were far more engaging and supportive. The current court case against the conductor by the CPS despite his proven no wrongdoing made me change my mind, however I continue to make it clear to the LLC and to management that the other rep does not represent me or my colleagues in any way

 

[hounddog]

The current court case against the conductor by the CPS despite his proven no wrongdoing

Proven? The case hasn't gone to court yet. If I wrote 'he's clearly guilty, throw the key away' I'd be moderated in no time flat.

 

[380101]

Proven? The case hasn't gone to court yet. If I wrote 'he's clearly guilty, throw the key away' I'd be moderated in no time flat.

Well Mersyrail, RAIB and ORR (the professional experts in the matter) seem to be happy with what the guard did. So I'd say the CPS are clutching at straws.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The RAIB and the TOC have both exonerated the individual of any wrongdoing. This isn't the James Street case