Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HH]

If 50+ people on RUK knew DOO was on the cards in the ITT then it shouldn be news to the RMT.

ITTs are publicly available. They don't need to be told by anyone.

If you read the rolling stock issues parts of the report it very much appears F***t left them plenty of issues to resolve. The train reliably graph for TL & GN on page 7 show issues when through the roof on TL as soon as bids were delivered for example.
Also plenty of long term issues not resolved or even attempted by F***t. e.g. PIBS at St Pancras.
TL 377/2 & /5s being far less reliable than SN units when the took over.
Minimal heavy maintenance on 319s before takeover leading to backlog.
The hangover of F***t imfamous "no sundays" contract

GTR /SN did screw up the Jan and May 2015 timetables with the 24 vs 22tph issues at LBG but they had been told by NR in advance...

Also hints that F***t didn't bother to try to retain or recruit drivers before the handover.

I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to put asterisks in, but yes FCC didn't do a very good job on the Operations side and it probably got worse after they lost. Senior people start looking for new jobs, etc. It's a natural course of events. As a bidder you have two options - try to get the DfT to give you some coverage or assume the worst. DfT seem no longer interested in the former (and they've never been interested in actually holding outgoing TOCs to their contract, which specifies that they have to leave the franchise 'in a fit state'), so it was up to Govia to assume the worst.

Of course bidders can be tempted to do the opposite in order to win, or they can make errors - TSGN was a very complex bid and I've seen errors in driver numbers on much smaller franchises.

To me the list looks like a bunch of excuses - everyone knew (or should have known) that FCC didn't have enough drivers, that there were RDW issues, that there was a holiday backlog and that a number of drivers would have to be hired from day 1 for the upcoming Rolling Stock cascade. Without seeing the current driver turnover rates it's impossible to know whether it really is an issue, but it was known that there were a substantial number of drivers who were in a position to retire at any time (i.e. they had already worked 40+ years and therefore could get the maximum pension).

Either they did plan for these things, in which case the list is just covering up for the real reasons for cancellations, or they failed to, in which case they are incompetent. I also wonder how First can be blamed for the abysmal performance on Gatwick Express (which is far worse than on Thameslink).

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Can a franchise really be lost for speaking out about something? I wouldn't have thought so.

Given that they are almost certainly in breach of their performance metrics, then they are relying on DfT accepting their excuses and plans to improve things, so yes, speaking out could conceivably cost them the franchise.

 

[sarahj]

In all the years of this 'privatisation' I don't think i have ever seen a rail company criticize the government. No matter the type of franchise, they know that if they want to come back for more, and remember they also have the SE and LMR (or whatever it's called) ones as well.

As for the 'shock' that the RMT might be slightly socialist, I have other news, after years of secret investigations, it had been discovered that the Pope is Roman Catholic, and Scientists have discovered that when Bears need to go to the toilet, they do it in the woods.

Yes, the RMT has not been great in some of their press releases, and in this world of social media they have been caught of guard a bit. But at the same time, they don't have money to throw around. £50,000 for a metro add. £150,000 plus to drag Aslef through the courts, plus posters, folks handing out leaflets, tannoy's every few mins, twitter feeds.

And it's not a case of going back to the 70's, when even being handed our oyster readers would have meant a strike for more money for the extra kit. this is a battle to keep a second , focused on the punters, person on the train. But perhaps it's better than government whom in some of their recent laws, want to take us back to the 1870's Doff's cap, 'of course sir, yes, I will not strike and do your bidding and work whatever rest day you care to offer me, yes sir, any scraps, please don't send me to live under the pier'

 

[Robertj21a]

ITTs are publicly available. They don't need to be told by anyone.



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Given that they are almost certainly in breach of their performance metrics, then they are relying on DfT accepting their excuses and plans to improve things, so yes, speaking out could conceivably cost them the franchise.

I'm getting confused...........I thought we'd already accepted that GTR only had a concession, not a franchise ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the 'shock' that the RMT might be slightly socialist.....

"Slightly" socialist....hock:

Up North, we call a spade a bloody shovel...

Now who is attempting to put a gloss over that particular matter. In your eyes, what do you have to be to be a full-blown Socialist organisation?

 

[sarahj]

"Slightly" socialist....hock:

Now who is attempting to put a gloss over that particular matter. In your eyes, what do you have to be to be a full-blown Socialist organisation?

So, a group, set up by the workers, to help workers when they might be exploited and gain rights, support a political thinking that gives support to workers*.

(* still being debated and has been from the mid 19th C )

But then what is socialism. I mean I know the title says related debates, but this is heading off a tangent. I might be a socialist, but then I support our current membership of the EU, but the RMT does not, is anyone really a full blown Socialist? But on the other hand, what is a full blown Tory?. Is it the ones who vote for removal of welfare support, but claim for a pond in their garden, or ones who want us out of the EU, yet would sell their granny to the Chinese for a quick profit (kept in an offshore account).

But this is now heading way off tangent. I was just pointing out that you keep seeing Socialist messages in the RMT blurb, and I pointed out that the Pope may support the Catholic faith.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, the RMT has not been great in some of their press releases, and in this world of social media they have been caught of guard a bit. But at the same time, they don't have money to throw around. £50,000 for a metro add. £150,000 plus to drag Aslef through the courts, plus posters, folks handing out leaflets, tannoy's every few mins, twitter feeds.

But they evidentially had no problem in delving into the union member's subscriptions coffers at a time of a recent General Election to make an RMT subscription to the Scottish Socialist Party.....another organisation that you would no doubt describe as being "slightly socialist"...

 

[HH]

I'm getting confused...........I thought we'd already accepted that GTR only had a concession, not a franchise ?

No. I already corrected that misunderstanding. Try to keep up!

P.S. Can people not derail this thread with arguments that are purely political. Start a new thread!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can people not derail this thread with arguments that are purely political. Start a new thread!

Perhaps if people will then stop making political comments about the other side of the argument, your point would have some validity. One rule to cover all sides of the argument.

It still needs saying over and over again that in this debate, we are discussing a concession...not a franchise...

 

[craigy68]

Are unions allowed to compensate their members for FULL loss of earnings during strike action ?

 

[BRblue]

Perhaps if people will then stop making political comments about the other side of the argument, your point would have some validity. One rule to cover all sides of the argument.

It still needs saying over and over again that in this debate, we are discussing a concession...not a franchise...

Paul I am afraid YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the 1970's and socialists...
Please can you and others stop derailing (excuse the pun) this thread I am fed up now with the DOO/guards debate being turned into a political bitchfest!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul I am afraid YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the 1970's and socialists...
Please can you and others stop derailing (excuse the pun) this thread I am fed up now with the DOO/guards debate being turned into a political bitchfest!

Agreed. At least the matter of the RMT press releases has had a good airing on the thread with many agreeing, union members included, that they were very poor in presentation.

 

[sarahj]

Are unions allowed to compensate their members for FULL loss of earnings during strike action ?

They have a hardship fund, which they can pass out to members hurt by loosing money by the strike. It is less than what is lost, but it's better than nothing for some.

 

[craigy68]

The RMT, the union of tube drivers and railway workers, holds shares worth £15.35m in some of the world’s largest banks and multinationals.

As reported in the Telegraph

Shame they cannot put their money where their mouth is and support members more.

 

[HLE]

In all the years of this 'privatisation' I don't think i have ever seen a rail company criticize the government. No matter the type of franchise, they know that if they want to come back for more, and remember they also have the SE and LMR (or whatever it's called) ones as well.

As for the 'shock' that the RMT might be slightly socialist, I have other news, after years of secret investigations, it had been discovered that the Pope is Roman Catholic, and Scientists have discovered that when Bears need to go to the toilet, they do it in the woods.

Yes, the RMT has not been great in some of their press releases, and in this world of social media they have been caught of guard a bit. But at the same time, they don't have money to throw around. £50,000 for a metro add. £150,000 plus to drag Aslef through the courts, plus posters, folks handing out leaflets, tannoy's every few mins, twitter feeds.

And it's not a case of going back to the 70's, when even being handed our oyster readers would have meant a strike for more money for the extra kit. this is a battle to keep a second , focused on the punters, person on the train. But perhaps it's better than government whom in some of their recent laws, want to take us back to the 1870's Doff's cap, 'of course sir, yes, I will not strike and do your bidding and work whatever rest day you care to offer me, yes sir, any scraps, please don't send me to live under the pier'

Amen to that!!

 

[infobleep]

Is this the "franchise" that is not a franchise....but a concession?

Yes but for avoidance of doubt, ask GTR or DfT.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[sarahj]

Anyway, new development:

Letters sent today. for Brighton boys and gals, 2 types:

1. Saying they will remain conductors (for now)
2: That notice will be given around the 20th August and you have 4 weeks from then to apply for the OBs role.

Hopefully this will not split us in two.

No post for me yet.

 

[infobleep]

Personally I see the job of a union is to represent their members and nothing more. It needs to find ways to best do that within the budget they have available.

If they have to change the tone of their press releases to a style they'd rather not use, in order to best represent their members then so be it. The leatest press release is the best yet, so perhaps they are learning as they go along.

I remember one organisation I worked for where they had evidence of a union rep not pulling his weight, aka swinging his leg. They didn't dare doing anything about it as it would lead to a strike.

In the same organisation other staff were given a copy of their contract. It didn't match what they were given when they started. Fortunately they had kept their original one as proof. It of course had better terms.

What this seemed to show to me was that you had some union members and management at the extreme ends and other staff in the middle just trying to do a job on fair and reasonable terms.

I've never joined a union myself, whenever I've had the opportunity and I am put off by them as they come across as being very political and I don't like to belonging to any particular political party or political organisation. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in politics though.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[BRblue]

Personally I see the job of a union is to represent their members and nothing more. It needs to find ways to best do that within the budget they have available.

If they have to change the tone of their press releases to a style they'd rather not use, in order to best represent their members then so be it. The leatest press release is the best yet, so perhaps they are learning as they go along.

I remember one organisation I worked for where they had evidence of a union rep not pulling his weight, aka swinging his leg. They didn't dare doing anything about it as it would lead to a strike.

In the same organisation other staff were given a copy of their contract. It didn't match what they were given when they started. Fortunately they had kept their original one as proof. It of course had better terms.

What this seemed to show to me was that you had some union members and management at the extreme ends and other staff in the middle just trying to do a job on fair and reasonable terms.

I've never joined a union myself, whenever I've had the opportunity and I am put off by them as they come across as being very political and I don't like to belonging to any particular political party or political organisation. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in politics though.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

My disabled Mrs employer tried to get rid of her because they did not want to make the necessary changes to enable her to continue doing the job she had done before getting ill.
If she had not been in the union I have no doubt she would of lost her job... but the representation, help and advice she got from the union not only kept her job, but got the changes that were needed and her employer got a rather big kick up the backside.
Some on here only see the unions as big anti-establishment dinosaurs when in reality they actually do a lot of good for the workers that they represent.

Sorry folks for taking thread of topic... slaps own wrist.

 

[tony6499]

Anyway, new development:

Letters sent today. for Brighton boys and gals, 2 types:

1. Saying they will remain conductors (for now)
2: That notice will be given around the 20th August and you have 4 weeks from then to apply for the OBs role.

Hopefully this will not split us in two.

No post for me yet.

And if you don't get a Conductors job and don't want a OBS job then what ? Obvious they are trying to split the depot and ones designated as Conductors won't do a further strike for fear of losing their job.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Anyway, new development:

Letters sent today. for Brighton boys and gals, 2 types:

1. Saying they will remain conductors (for now)
2: That notice will be given around the 20th August and you have 4 weeks from then to apply for the OBs role.

Hopefully this will not split us in two.

No post for me yet.

Just that depot?

Which routes do they cover?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

And if you don't get a Conductors job and don't want a OBS job then what ? Obvious they are trying to split the depot and ones designated as Conductors won't do a further strike for fear of losing their job.

Then, according to the letter, your employment will terminate approximately 4 weeks after the letter is sent.

 

[JamesTT]

Anyway, new development:

Letters sent today. for Brighton boys and gals, 2 types:

1. Saying they will remain conductors (for now)
2: That notice will be given around the 20th August and you have 4 weeks from then to apply for the OBs role.

Hopefully this will not split us in two.

No post for me yet.

Any mention of a redundancy option?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway, new development:

Letters sent today. for Brighton boys and gals, 2 types:

1. Saying they will remain conductors (for now)
2: That notice will be given around the 20th August and you have 4 weeks from then to apply for the OBs role.

Hopefully this will not split us in two.

No post for me yet.

We might not see eye to eye on many matters, but on a personal basis, I sincerely hope that all works out well for you.

 

[Robertj21a]

No. I already corrected that misunderstanding. Try to keep up!

P.S. Can people not derail this thread with arguments that are purely political. Start a new thread!

Apologies. I'm trying to keep up (and also not derail the basic thread) but this is a key issue re DOO/Dft. I can't find anything on here that 'corrected that misunderstanding' but I fully accept that there's so many postings that it's quite easy to miss such things.

In any event, if the statement that it was a concession was a misunderstanding then I assume it's a franchise !

 

[sarahj]

Just that depot?

Which routes do they cover?

We cover the most. Main line, Arun Valley, Ore, Southampton (just not via Eastleigh) and branches.
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Any mention of a redundancy option?

Yes. I know some folks are going down that road. (well 2)

 

[JamesTT]

We cover the most. Main line, Arun Valley, Ore, Southampton (just not via Eastleigh) and branches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes. I know some folks are going down that road. (well 2)

Have they offered an enhanced package or just the statutory minimum?

 

[speedy_sticks]

We cover the most. Main line, Arun Valley, Ore, Southampton (just not via Eastleigh) and branches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes. I know some folks are going down that road. (well 2)

Does that cover Horsham, Bogna, Vic routes?

 

[infobleep]

My disabled Mrs employer tried to get rid of her because they did not want to make the necessary changes to enable her to continue doing the job she had done before getting ill.
If she had not been in the union I have no doubt she would of lost her job... but the representation, help and advice she got from the union not only kept her job, but got the changes that were needed and her employer got a rather big kick up the backside.
Some on here only see the unions as big anti-establishment dinosaurs when in reality they actually do a lot of good for the workers that they represent.

Sorry folks for taking thread of topic... slaps own wrist.

I'm sure they do good in places. It's just what I've come across and the fact that they do support a political ideology publicially and just seem fairly political.

I guess I've been lucky that my employer has been happy to make reasonable adjustments I have needed.

Back to the issue at hand, I don't see this ending the way I and many others would like but I certainly hope it goes in favour of the guards.

If only everyone was rich enough to be able to quit their jobs, drivers and guards. Then GTR would be in trouble.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[sarahj]

Does that cover Horsham, Bogna, Vic routes?

Oh yes. Roughly what will happen is, if your train is a 313, you will still have a guard, these cannot go DOO (yet), if it's a 377, you will be praying for station staff (or phone in 24-48 hrs in advance).

 

[speedy_sticks]

Oh yes. Roughly what will happen is, if your train is a 313, you will still have a guard, these cannot go DOO (yet), if it's a 377, you will be praying for station staff (or phone in 24-48 hrs in advance).

Must be a good legal case for discrimination?