Labour MP murdered in shooting/stabbing incident

[Antman]

We're not under.threat though. I understand the sentiment but that kind of hyperbole doesn't help anyone. All you're doing is giving the stormfags power they don't have and respect they don't deserve.

Exactly and it's disappointing to see somebody using this murder to score cheap political points.

A 52 year old has been charged with murder.

 

[Johnuk123]

We need as a nation to understand that we are under threat from Far Right political parties who wish to encourage hatred towards other UK citizens and all the mindless intimidation and violence that goes with it.

You were doing ok until you wrote that, but trying to score cheap political points at this time is not worthy.
This tragic incident is similar to the Leytonstone tube station one ie : Mental case attacks somebody, shouts something and everybody calls it terrorism, except it wasn't.

The guy asked for mental health treatment as he said he was having a crisis at a therapy centre 300 yds from the library the day before the incident but they couldn't help.

A husband has lost his wife, two children have lost a mom, people who blatantly exploit it for political ends like the truly odious Polly Tonybee yesterday is simply a disgrace.

 

[Antman]

The accused gave his name in court as "death to traitors freedom for Britain".

 

[northwichcat]

I think it's because most MPs aren't bad. We have allowed ourselves to believe the hype that they're all rotten.

And even those who might have done some bad things may still work hard for their constituents. Indeed, some of their actions might be for their benefit on a local level.

When the MPs and MEPs who seem get the most airtime on TV are Cameron, Osborne, Johnson and Farage it's sometimes easy to forget that some weren't educated at elite educational establishments and have had to fight hard to get their jobs, opposed to getting selected for safe seats by a political party they joined because of their status.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

When the MPs who seem get the most airtime on TV are Cameron, Osborne, Johnson and Farage it's sometimes easy to forget that some MPs weren't educated at elite educational establishments and have had to fight hard to become MPs, opposed to getting selected for safe seats by a political party they joined because of their status.

Well, as I'm sure you know Farage isn't an MP but he does get an extraordinary amount of airtime.

 

[northwichcat]

Jo Cox was categorised as "core group negative" on a list of MPs' attitudes to Corbyn compiled by a group of pro-Corbyn Labour MPs.

Looking at the election results for Batley and Spen and considering her predecessor was (a veteran left winger) it looks like picking a local candidate with left of centre views helped Labour to win over the centralist voters and increase their majority.
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Well, as I'm sure you know Farage isn't an MP but he does get an extraordinary amount of airtime.

Yes I've corrected that to say MPs and MEPs. In fact he's probably the only MEP who regularly gets any airtime!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Exactly and it's disappointing to see somebody using this murder to score cheap political points.

A 52 year old has been charged with murder.

That would be you then, whilst pretending otherwise. I already demonstrated it once, and it was telling that you never replied.
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You were doing ok until you wrote that, but trying to score cheap political points at this time is not worthy.
This tragic incident is similar to the Leytonstone tube station one ie : Mental case attacks somebody, shouts something and everybody calls it terrorism, except it wasn't.

The guy asked for mental health treatment as he said he was having a crisis at a therapy centre 300 yds from the library the day before the incident but they couldn't help.

A husband has lost his wife, two children have lost a mom, people who blatantly exploit it for political ends like the truly odious Polly Tonybee yesterday is simply a disgrace.

Why is it only terrorism when it's done by Muslims?

 

[Antman]

That would be you then, whilst pretending otherwise. I already demonstrated it once, and it was telling that you never replied.
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Why is it only terrorism when it's done by Muslims?

Oh here we go, trying to drag this thread down the way you have done with the EU thread:roll:

 

[Dent]

Why is it only terrorism when it's done by Muslims?

Who said it is only terrorism when it's done bu Muslims? I certainly don't see any such claim anywhere in your quote, or indeed anywhere else!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Who said it is only terrorism when it's done bu Muslims? I certainly don't see any such claim anywhere in your quote, or indeed anywhere else!

Of course no-one has literally said that outright, because that would be absurdly easy to shoot down. Yet, all of the people talking about how it was a lone gunman who apparently acted with no political motivation whatsoever are some of the first to condemn a group when Islamic terrorism occurs.

That is hypocrisy.
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Oh here we go, trying to drag this thread down the way you have done with the EU thread:roll:

This is not relevant (so admins, feel free to delete), but right now the EU thread is discussing the issue that it took me asking Muttley 8 times with no answer, because unlike you and him, some of us are actually interested in discussing issues and not just mocking those we disagree with, or (as in this thread) claiming some fake moral high-ground under the illusion of being apolitical, whilst smuggling in your political assumptions and biases in in the process to try and deflect from much of the cause of this attack because you're worried groups you support/are associated with/are on the same side of might be implicated.

 

[jon0844]

Following the court appearance, I think we can conclude he's not just some loner with mental illness, as some sections of the media wanted to portray.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Following the court appearance, I think we can conclude he's not just some loner with mental illness, as some sections of the media wanted to portray.

It's almost like all of this shrieking about "let's not make this political!" is very much political itself, with the express purpose of preventing analysis of the far-right structures that caused a mentally ill man to act with the hatred and contempt that he did.

No person is an island.

 

[jon0844]

We've allowed such hatred to expose itself lately, it's no surprise some serious fanatics have come out the woodwork.

For some it's the moment they've been waiting for, and it's exactly what people feared about UKIP in the last elections.

A supposedly credible party, compared to the BNP, EDL or Britain First. Sadly, with a lot of the same supporters.

I can only hope the outrage over this will stop anyone else thinking recent events was a sign to stand up and take similar action.

 

[Antman]

Of course no-one has literally said that outright, because that would be absurdly easy to shoot down. Yet, all of the people talking about how it was a lone gunman who apparently acted with no political motivation whatsoever are some of the first to condemn a group when Islamic terrorism occurs.

That is hypocrisy.
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This is not relevant (so admins, feel free to delete), but right now the EU thread is discussing the issue that it took me asking Muttley 8 times with no answer, because unlike you and him, some of us are actually interested in discussing issues and not just mocking those we disagree with, or (as in this thread) claiming some fake moral high-ground under the illusion of being apolitical, whilst smuggling in your political assumptions and biases in in the process to try and deflect from much of the cause of this attack because you're worried groups you support/are associated with/are on the same side of might be implicated.

I shall just your posts from now on.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I shall just your posts from now on.

Do what you like - I will continue to call out your insidious rubbish. You clearly have no response because you know exactly what you're doing.

 

[Antman]

Following the court appearance, I think we can conclude he's not just some loner with mental illness, as some sections of the media wanted to portray.

I'm not sure what's bought you to that conclusion?

BTW does anybody know why this mornings hearing was in London and not at a local magistrates court as would normally be the case?

 

[TheKnightWho]

We've allowed such hatred to expose itself lately, it's no surprise some serious fanatics have come out the woodwork.

For some it's the moment they've been waiting for, and it's exactly what people feared about UKIP in the last elections.

A supposedly credible party, compared to the BNP, EDL or Britain First. Sadly, with a lot of the same supporters.

I can only hope the outrage over this will stop anyone else thinking recent events was a sign to stand up and take similar action.

The right-wing press are doing everything they can to try and prevent people making the connection. That is what is truly disrespectful to Jo Cox: rewriting events out of a pathetic sense of self-protection. It's disgusting, and I won't stand for it.

 

[jon0844]

His 'name', Antman

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm not sure what's bought you to that conclusion?

BTW does anybody know why this mornings hearing was in London and not at a local magistrates court as would normally be the case?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-mair-arrives-at-court-following-murder-cha/

Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court

 

[northwichcat]

Of course no-one has literally said that outright, because that would be absurdly easy to shoot down. Yet, all of the people talking about how it was a lone gunman who apparently acted with no political motivation whatsoever are some of the first to condemn a group when Islamic terrorism occurs.

That is hypocrisy.

Pre-September 11 you could have said most terrorist attacks in Europe were carried out by people who would call themselves Catholics but they weren't reported like that - it was usually the IRA or ETA who were reported as being responsible. Yet when al-Qaeada or the ISIS are responsible people want to blame Muslims and eastern culture in general.

If you want to compare with previous terrorist activity then why not compare with the Gunpowder Plot? Guy Fawkes was seen as being the person responsible but a lot of historians find it almost impossible to believe that there weren't more people like him who he worked with.

 

[Dent]

Yet when al-Qaeada or the ISIS are responsible people want to blame Muslims and eastern culture in general.

Who has said that they want to blame Muslim and eastern culture in general?

I have never seen anyone making such a claim, yet I have seen many cases of someone falsely accusing others of making such a claim. This is an obvious example of a Straw Man.
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Of course no-one has literally said that outright, because that would be absurdly easy to shoot down.

As you just admitted yourself, no one has made the claim you claim to be questioning, therefore it is nothing but a straw man.

Yet, all of the people talking about how it was a lone gunman who apparently acted with no political motivation whatsoever are some of the first to condemn a group when Islamic terrorism occurs.

Fists of all, where is your proof of that statement?

Secondly, actions of an organised terrorist group acting in the name of a religion and actions of one lone wolf acting in the name of no one are different situations. It is not "hypocrisy" to acknowledge that two different situations are different, it is observation.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Who has said that they want to blame Muslim and eastern culture in general?

I have never seen anyone making such a claim, yet I have seen many cases of someone falsely accusing others of making such a claim. This is an obvious example of a Straw Man.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...complete-ban-on-muslims-entering-the-us-video

http://news.sky.com/story/1607259/sky-poll-30-percent-support-trumps-muslim-ban-call

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-accuse-british-muslims-conflicting-loyalties

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-Labour-leader-super-Thursday-elections.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...rise-in-islamophobia-in-britain-a6967546.html



But don't worry, I'll keep letting you make your No True Scotsman.

 

[Zoidberg]

That would be you then, whilst pretending otherwise. I already demonstrated it once, and it was telling that you never replied.
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Why is it only terrorism when it's done by Muslims?

Not so much having a bee in your bonnet, more having a whole swarm in your bearskin.

 

[Dent]

But don't worry, I'll keep letting you make your No True Scotsman.

Where have I made a No True Scotsman fallacy?

 

[TheKnightWho]

As you just admitted yourself, no one has made the claim you claim to be questioning, therefore it is nothing but a straw man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_assumption

Fists of all, where is your proof of that statement?

Secondly, actions of an organised terrorist group acting in the name of a religion and actions of one lone wolf acting in the name of no one are different situations. It is not "hypocrisy" to acknowledge that two different situations are different, it is observation.

For a start, Johnuk123 on the Orlando shooting thread trying to imply he wasn't just a lone gunman. Secondly, I would suggest comparing what the Daily Mail had on this gunman vs how it reacted to Lee Rigby's murder. I don't think they cared about the latter's mental health, honestly.
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Where have I made a No True Scotsman fallacy?

"In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example."

 

[Dent]

"In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example."

I am well aware of the definition, but I am not aware of any instance where I have made such a fallacy. Can you provide such an example?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I am well aware of the definition, but I am not aware of any instance where I have made such a fallacy. Can you provide such an example?

Arguing that no-one has made such a statement and therefore it's just a "strawman", given I explained fully why I was making such an argument - something you decided to ignore. You are shifting the goalposts of my own argument, which makes it all the more ridiculous.

The fact that plenty of people have made such statements is beside the point, too - if you think that only literal stated meaning is all that matters then I really do despair.

 

[backontrack]

Are we talking rhetological fallacies now? I'd hope not, but that'd be an Appeal To Wishful Thinking.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

BTW does anybody know why this mornings hearing was in London and not at a local magistrates court as would normally be the case?

I don't know but in previous high profile cases that affect a single location more than others this has been done, perhaps it is to avoid the risk of accusations of ( unconscious and unintended or otherwise ) bias if the hearing was held locally - such an issue could well bog the case down later on.

 

[northwichcat]

Who has said that they want to blame Muslim and eastern culture in general?

You've never heard of a man called Donald Trump? hock: