EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

Being an insular little inward looking European is ridiculous, why is it so bad to just be like the other 169 countries of the world that don't belong to a block.

Er...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_bloc
Almost every country in the world is a member of a bloc in some form or another.

 

[Steveman]

Er...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_bloc
Almost every country in the world is a member of a bloc in some form or another.

Not really on the way to becoming federal though are they.

 

[EM2]

Not really on the way to becoming federal though are they.

That wasn't what you said, was it.

 

[Steveman]

That wasn't what you said, was it.

No it wasn't correct, but the general point I was making stands -the vast majority of the world can do as they please without massive interference from others.

 

[anme]

Er...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_bloc
Almost every country in the world is a member of a bloc in some form or another.

Facts are unpatriotic!
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No it wasn't correct, but the general point I was making stands -the vast majority of the world can do as they please without massive interference from others.

The rest of the world don't have the advantage of being part of a single market of 500 million people, while still having the diversity of being small independent countries.

Also, this claim that the UK doesn't trade with the rest of the world is yet another lie. Over half the UK's exports go outside the EU. Where is your evidence that there's some enormous unmet demand for British exports from outside the EU, that we don't currently meet because we trade inside the EU? Obviously you must have it, because to vote leave without it would be incredibly stupid, no?

Edit:
Remain supporters might find this page interesting - some nice visualisations of the UK's imports and exports: http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/.
Leave supporters won't be interested as it's fact-based and therefore boring and unpatriotic.

 

[Antman]

It's eye opening to see just how uninformed many Brexit voters are. A number of them regret voting out, but were they physically incapable of doing their own research as opposed to relying on rehearsed sound bites and lies from politicians? It's OK though, we have a bit more sovereignty and who cares about boring things like the economy?

Really? And where did you get that information from? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

 

[43074]

I'm afraid your posts do show you up as someone who lives in a London bubble, totally divorced from reality and life outside the chattering Metropolitan elite who are all in a sulk to end all sulks.
Yes jobs might be lost and uncertainty is going to be around for some time but this is a very long term process, things will start to pick up once the uncertainty has gone.

... and it's the places which voted leave which are going to suffer most when we head into recession very shortly after the effect of job losses and this uncertainty kicks in, much as the ''chattering Metropolitan elite'' are predicting. I think many on the Leave side are living in a sense of misguided arrogance, we'll see about that when 'Great Britain' becomes 'Little England'.

Being an insular little inward looking European is ridiculous, why is it so bad to just be like the other 169 countries of the world that don't belong to a block.
This insular attitude amongst Remainers is baffling, there is a whole wide world out there. What have I got in common with a Bulgarian or a Slovak compared to an Australian or American who are like us,talk like us and have a similar culture.
Being close doesn't mean anything, it's culture and attitudes and an affinity what matters and my affinity is to people who are our trusted old allies unlike France and Germany who are anything but.

But why should we be discriminating against Bulgarians or Slovaks just because of difference? Would you be happy if a family of New Zealanders moved in as your neighbours but not if a family of Slovakians did? There's no reason we can't look to Europe, and look outward at the same time, assuming we can get the least worst scenario out of a bad decision. Unsurprisingly, Leicester - one of the most multi-cultural cities in the country - voted Remain yesterday, and it is clearly because of that acceptance of difference.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No it wasn't correct, but the general point I was making stands -the vast majority of the world can do as they please without massive interference from others.

That's not really true. All those blocs - as well as the other agreements that just about every country has signed on all sorts of issues from climate change to trade to defence to extradition of criminals - all have an effect on restricting what each country can do - an effect of restricting sovereignty. We live in a hugely interconnected world. No country can literally 'do as they please' and we certainly won't be able to outside the EU. This idea of 'taking back control' and becoming 'independent' again is to a large extent an illusion.

 

[Muttley]

...The UK has been very successful at attracting inward investment into the EU...

Yes. And now it can continue being successful at attracting inward investment, but that will benefit the UK and not the EU.

Earlier this year, or was it late last year, we sent 'not a quitter CMD' to China to negotiate deals. He couldn't negotiate for the UK but had to do the whole EU. Hopefully the next PM will be putting us first.

 

[northwichcat]

Really? And where did you get that information from? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

If you've watched the news over the past 2 days you'll have seen there now appears to be more unhappy Brexit voters than happy Brexit voters. Of course there are still happy Brexit voters - one claiming if Osborne now resigns, the Northern Powerhouse will be bigger and better than it was going to be.

 

[Johnuk123]

If you've watched the news over the past 2 days you'll have seen there now appears to be more unhappy Brexit voters than happy Brexit voters. Of course there are still happy Brexit voters - one claiming if Osborne now resigns, the Northern Powerhouse will be bigger and better than it was going to be.

There certainly are happy Brexit voters by the amount of parties going on last night, never heard such a racket and one still going on now.

 

[EM2]

What have I got in common with a Bulgarian or a Slovak compared to an Australian or American who are like us,talk like us and have a similar culture.
Being close doesn't mean anything, it's culture and attitudes and an affinity what matters and my affinity is to people who are our trusted old allies unlike France and Germany who are anything but.

Have you never had a pizza, or a chow mein, or a curry, or drank a Czech or German beer, or watched The Killing, or The Bridge, or The Returned, or Das Boot?

 

[muz379]

I'm afraid your posts do show you up as someone who lives in a London bubble, totally divorced from reality and life outside the chattering Metropolitan elite who are all in a sulk to end all sulks.
Yes jobs might be lost and uncertainty is going to be around for some time but this is a very long term process, things will start to pick up once the uncertainty has gone.

Being an insular little inward looking European is ridiculous, why is it so bad to just be like the other 169 countries of the world that don't belong to a block.
This insular attitude amongst Remainers is baffling, there is a whole wide world out there. What have I got in common with a Bulgarian or a Slovak compared to an Australian or American who are like us,talk like us and have a similar culture.
Being close doesn't mean anything, it's culture and attitudes and an affinity what matters and my affinity is to people who are our trusted old allies unlike France and Germany who are anything but.

Ok so if his opinion does not count because he is from the "London bubble" Maybe mine is more valid because I grew up in a massively deprived area in the North , I still do live in an area that whilst not as deprived is below average in many economic markers . I voted remain

But then I have actually spent a year of my life at a world leading institution studying EU law so perhaps have a better understanding of the EU than most .

As for trusted allies . Right now it is Angela Merkel the German chancellor who is really saving Britain and calling for calm and considered diplomacy going forward from the result of this referendum so perhaps its time to get with the times when it comes to trusted allies . People who you might think are trusted allies like the US have said we are going to be at the back of the queue when it comes to negotiations

 

[DelayRepay]

No country can literally 'do as they please'

To be fair that's not completely true. North Korea seem to be having a good go...

 

[deltic]

If Lib Dems had a more charismatic/better known leader they would be soaring in the polls by now and back up to 20%

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It's eye opening to see just how uninformed many Brexit voters are. A number of them regret voting out, but were they physically incapable of doing their own research as opposed to relying on rehearsed sound bites and lies from politicians? It's OK though, we have a bit more sovereignty and who cares about boring things like the economy?

I can't speak for 'most brexit voters' but many voted on what they see happening around them that they attribute to the EU - lower wages, mass immigration etc. large cities are used to this - small towns are not and it is those small towns that saw dramatic changes. Large influxes of immigrants to small towns and rural areas doesn't happen in mainland Europe on the scale it has happened here. You can argue the rights and wrongs of their middle England attitude but they felt their problems were ignored and the only answer the remain camp gave was to call them racist - hardly likely to inspire them to change their mind.

 

[Antman]

I can't speak for 'most brexit voters' but many voted on what they see happening around them that they attribute to the EU - lower wages, mass immigration etc. large cities are used to this - small towns are not and it is those small towns that saw dramatic changes. Large influxes of immigrants to small towns and rural areas doesn't happen in mainland Europe on the scale it has happened here. You can argue the rights and wrongs of their middle England attitude but they felt their problems were ignored and the only answer the remain camp gave was to call them racist - hardly likely to inspire them to change their mind.

Best post on the subject by a country mile ??????

 

[anme]

Yes. And now it can continue being successful at attracting inward investment, but that will benefit the UK and not the EU.

Earlier this year, or was it late last year, we sent 'not a quitter CMD' to China to negotiate deals. He couldn't negotiate for the UK but had to do the whole EU. Hopefully the next PM will be putting us first.

Why do you think the UK was attracting inward investment? Think! It was because the UK is part of the single market. I repeat. It was because the UK is part of the single market. The likes of Nissan could make cars in low wage areas with poor workers rights, such as Sunderland, and export them to high earnings areas such as Germany and France (and London). You understand that, right?

Put yourself in Nissan's shoes. Now the future terms of trade are unknown between England and Wales and the 440 million other people in the EU, maybe for many years, where would you choose to invest to build your next model?

Of course, we can mitigate the damage by remaining part of the EEA and staying in the single market with free movement of people and goods. Do you agree that would be the best thing to do, even though it's much worse than being a member of the EU?

Negotiations with China are an interesting point. What exactly can we achieve now that we couldn't as part of the EU?
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Really? And where did you get that information from? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

Hey. Are you going to tell us if you support continued EEA membership yet? It's going to be time to choose very soon!

 

[ExRes]

If Lib Dems had a more charismatic/better known leader they would be soaring in the polls by now and back up to 20%

I'm sorry, but do you have some sort of link we could look at?

 

[muz379]

A lot of the young are very impressionable and naïve liberal arts types, people who believe they have some sort of intellectual high ground but are really on course for life's slow lane thanks to the social engineering they've been subjected to.

Any stats or evidence to back that up because otherwise it could quite easily be considered pure nonsense .

I could quite easily say that a lot of the older voters are senile crazy old racists stuck in the past , people who believe they are clever because they have 2 o levels and read the daily mail but really they are stuck in the slow lane because they think that Germany and Italy are still our enemy . But then you would decry such claims as having no factual basis .

Perhaps its best if you have no factual basis for what you are saying you keep it to yourself .

 

[deltic]

I'm sorry, but do you have some sort of link to your thread title?

See http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election

"The Liberal Democrats will fight the next general election with a pledge to take Britain back into the EU, claiming the referendum result was secured on a campaign of lies.

Voters backed Brexit in a “howl of anger” at out-of-touch politicians, but must be given the chance to rethink the decision, according to the Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron.

The cheap slogans of Ukip’s Nigel Farage and Tories Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are unravelling, and the public will feel betrayed when promises on the NHS and immigration are not delivered, the party said.

Since the shock referendum result, the Lib Dems have recorded thousands of voters signing up to become members.

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Farron said he will make the case for the country to rejoin the EU at the next general election.“For many millions of people, this was not just a vote about Europe,” he said. “It was a howl of anger at politicians and institutions who they felt were out of touch and had let them down.

“The British people deserve the chance not to be stuck with the appalling consequences of a leave campaign that stoked that anger with the lies of Farage, Johnson and Gove.

“The Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore British prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not out.

“If you agree with us, join us to make this happen.”

The next general election is not due until 2020 under current laws, but could be staged within months if the next Conservative leader decides to seek a mandate through a national vote.

They would have to secure a two-thirds Commons majority, repeal legislation or see a vote of no confidence in the government for a snap poll to go ahead.

A Lib Dem spokesman said: “In 24 hours the cheap bus slogans of Farage, Johnson and Gove are unravelling.

“On £350m for the NHS, on immigration, it is clear that they will fail to deliver what people thought they had voted for. Once again, people will feel betrayed by out-of-touch politicians.

“The Liberal Democrats are the only party united behind a future for Britain inside the European Union.”"

 

[Johnuk123]

Why do you think the UK was attracting inward investment? Think! It was because the UK is part of the single market. I repeat. It was because the UK is part of the single market. The likes of Nissan could make cars in low wage areas with poor workers rights, such as Sunderland, and export them to high earnings areas such as Germany and France (and London). You understand that, right?

Put yourself in Nissan's shoes. Now the future terms of trade are unknown between England and Wales and the 440 million other people in the EU, maybe for many years, where would you choose to invest to build your next model?

Of course, we can mitigate the damage by remaining part of the EEA and staying in the single market with free movement of people and goods. Do you agree that would be the best thing to do, even though it's much worse than being a member of the EU?

Negotiations with China are an interesting point. What exactly can we achieve now that we couldn't as part of the EU?
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Hey. Are you going to tell us if you support continued EEA membership yet? It's going to be time to choose very soon!

Out of 15 car manufacturing sites in the UK 14 voted Leave so they don't share your pessimism or maybe like all Leavers they're all thick.

 

[anme]

I can't speak for 'most brexit voters' but many voted on what they see happening around them that they attribute to the EU - lower wages, mass immigration etc. large cities are used to this - small towns are not and it is those small towns that saw dramatic changes. Large influxes of immigrants to small towns and rural areas doesn't happen in mainland Europe on the scale it has happened here. You can argue the rights and wrongs of their middle England attitude but they felt their problems were ignored and the only answer the remain camp gave was to call them racist - hardly likely to inspire them to change their mind.

But. Again this is a lie. For the most part, the areas which have the highest migration saw the highest votes for remain. And the areas which have the lowest levels of migration saw the highest votes for leaving. See http://www.theguardian.com/politics...migration-fears-were-paradoxical-but-decisive

How do you explain that?

Immigrants don't actually choose to go to areas with no jobs and a poor quality of life. Not very surprising, when you think about it for more than 2 seconds.
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Out of 19 car manufacturing sites in the UK 18 voted Leave so they don't share your pessimism or maybe like all Leavers they're all thick.

I'll let you decide if they are thick.

Have you put yourself in Nissan's shoes like I asked you to? Please explain where my logic is flawed.
(Logic may be unpatriotic, but I'm going to insist you use it in your arguments.)

Anyway, as I said if we remain in the EEA, with free movement of people and goods, many of the predicted problems will not happen. Do you support this way forward?

 

[DelayRepay]

Any stats or evidence to back that up because otherwise it could quite easily be considered pure nonsense .

Perhaps its best if you have no factual basis for what you are saying you keep it to yourself .

No, you've got it wrong. We no longer make important decisions based on facts and stats, and of course we should pay no attention to "experts". Now, we make decisions based on untruths and lies*. This is, now, the Britain of Nigel Farage.

*£350 million extra for the NHS

 

[zuriblue]

I've come to think that this decision was just too big to digest in one vote.

If only we'd had the Irish system of voting on each treaty change incrementally, we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble.

Still, should'a, would'a, could'a....

Or the Swiss system where a referendum needs both a popular majority and a majority of the regions to pass. I was talking about this with my Swiss boss and he was aghast when I told him it was just 50%+1 to pass.

 

[Muttley]

The likes of Nissan could make cars in low wage areas with poor workers rights, such as Sunderland

Hang on, wasn't Sunderland in the EU ?
That great protector of workers rights and fighter of low pay ?

Now I am confused, how can you think the EU is a force for good when it allows poor workers rights ?

 

[ExRes]

No, you've got it wrong. We no longer make important decisions based on facts and stats, and of course we should pay no attention to "experts". Now, we make decisions based on untruths and lies*. This is, now, the Britain of Nigel Farage.

*£350 million extra for the NHS

Do you think we joined the EU in the first place because Edward Heath told the truth?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or the Swiss system where a referendum needs both a popular majority and a majority of the regions to pass. I was talking about this with my Swiss boss and he was aghast when I told him it was just 50%+1 to pass.

And I've no doubt we have differences with plenty of other countries, it doesn't make our system right or wrong though, just our system

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm honestly stunned at the vitriol being directed towards young people on this thread. I am at a loss for words for how deeply condescending some of these comments are.

 

[DaleCooper]

I'm honestly stunned at the vitriol being directed towards young people on this thread. I am at a loss for words for how deeply condescending some of these comments are.

The whole thread has turned very unpleasant.

 

[Domh245]

Should anyone be at all surprised at that?

Not really, no. Especially given that he said that he was going to take this hardball approach from the beginning. What I find quite odd thought is that Merkel seems to be taking the opposite approach to Juncker, saying that we shouldn't rush into triggering article 50. Why she is doing this, I don't know. We could be seeing the setting up of a good cop, bad cop approach to Brexit from the EU, or could it be the Merkel sees a lot of advantages to making sure that Germany gets a good deal with the UK.