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AirCon vs Opening Windows
- Thread starter Haig paxton
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bramling
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Personally I'd prefer opening windows on stock up to and including 100mph, after which air conditioning is preferable.
The advantage of opening windows is more reliable, more control for the passenger, fresher air, and personally as a mild hayfever person I find fresh air preferable.
Perhaps trains could be designed with some air conditioned vehicles and some with opening windows? Then most would be happy.
I sign 380s and I ALWAYS put the air-con to its lowest setting. It is adaptive to the CO2 levels and introduces fresh air regularly. there are 2 hopper windows in each coach that the driver can unlock if the air-con has failed (very rare) Unfortunately some people force the locks and open them which results in the air con failing!
If you find the train too hot just mention it to the TE if they are onboard and they will let the driver know to turn it down. Note this can only be done when the train is stopped as the control screen locks above 3mph.
I have been on several trains today with varying degrees of air con success. An EMT 158 from Nottingham to Peterborough I found most uncomfortable and the XC 170 to Nuneaton was if anything probably a little cold for most people as I found it pleasant.
The 156 on the way back from Nottingham to Worksop this evening had its windows open and was doing an alarming amount of tree surgery through the openings. It was also burning a lot of oil, very noticeable smell when accelerating.
So all in all I'm definitely an air con person, never ever ever switch it off in the car, never ever. That's not to say I'm not against A nice breeze of fresh air though.
Rob
The 156 on the way back from Nottingham to Worksop this evening had its windows open and was doing an alarming amount of tree surgery through the openings. It was also burning a lot of oil, very noticeable smell when accelerating.
So all in all I'm definitely an air con person, never ever ever switch it off in the car, never ever. That's not to say I'm not against A nice breeze of fresh air though.
Rob
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Aircon for me every time, so long as it's working. Unrefurbed Scotrail 158s, I'm thinking of you as the worst offenders, I've had some very nasty summer experiences aboard. Or a trip on the sleeper one very warm night a few years ago - it was so bad that I had to prop the compartment door open and lower all four droplights in the carriage, hideous.
I'm amused by the idea of a Pendolino or sleeper with opening windows, that would be quite exciting.
Aircon isn't easy. We did quite a bit of work in another industry around customer expectations around temperature in spaces covered by aircon set at optimum 21C, and came to the conclusion that you can't win. If it's a hot day everyone wants 18 and complains that 21 is stuffy. If it's very cold outside they complain if it's less than 23. I do the same in my car, which is perfectly capable of maintaining a constant 21. If it's a warm day I want to feel cool and turn it down to 18. In the winter, especially if it's raining or snowing, I often go up to 22.
That would be an awful lot of fiddling with settings on a train...
I'm amused by the idea of a Pendolino or sleeper with opening windows, that would be quite exciting.
Aircon isn't easy. We did quite a bit of work in another industry around customer expectations around temperature in spaces covered by aircon set at optimum 21C, and came to the conclusion that you can't win. If it's a hot day everyone wants 18 and complains that 21 is stuffy. If it's very cold outside they complain if it's less than 23. I do the same in my car, which is perfectly capable of maintaining a constant 21. If it's a warm day I want to feel cool and turn it down to 18. In the winter, especially if it's raining or snowing, I often go up to 22.
That would be an awful lot of fiddling with settings on a train...
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Opening windows also do nothing on hot days during rush hour.
I'm all for AC, but we can't afford to eliminate opening windows on modern AC-equipped trains (as is often the case, or sometimes the few windows are locked) just in case the AC fails, which happens more often than never.
Fresh air is nice and I like track sounds, but nothing beats the icy feeling of entering a fully air conditioned train when it's smoking hot outside.
Fresh air is nice and I like track sounds, but nothing beats the icy feeling of entering a fully air conditioned train when it's smoking hot outside.
Haig paxton
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I've watched ticket examiners opening windows on 380s plenty of times which makes things worse. Are they allowed to do this without consulting the driver? Its alright for them sitting in a cool rear cabin for three quarters of the journey after the damage is done.
Opening windows are heavier, and prone to leaking. Just putting that out there.
bavvo
Member
I prefer air con almost every time. Opening windows are inevitably left open regardless of temperature, are very noisy - was on a 165 today and the racket and smell from the exhaust when it pulls away is not pleasant, and the wind noise is wearing. Plus you have lots of micro conflicts from various passengers who disagree on the open/shut issue.
Not that a/c doesn't have it's problems, either failing in hot weather, or being noisy from poor design (not much point having windows shut if you then have a tornado force fan blowing the stuff around).
Worst though was a US Amtrak sleeper where they had the thermostat set at 'arctic' for the whole journey. Needed winter clothing for that one!
Not that a/c doesn't have it's problems, either failing in hot weather, or being noisy from poor design (not much point having windows shut if you then have a tornado force fan blowing the stuff around).
Worst though was a US Amtrak sleeper where they had the thermostat set at 'arctic' for the whole journey. Needed winter clothing for that one!
Perhaps I'm being naive - but shouldn't someone be fixing leaking windows ?
I agree they *should* but do they?
Possibly not - but better than having the passengers keeling over everywhere (or smashing the windows like on that train that got stranded outside Waterloo for several hours - bet they had to do some fixing after that !)
To be fair, when a full train is at a stand opening windows do very little to help.
All I can say is that I've had many a sweltering journey made bearable by the friendly guard opening the windows !
Bevan Price
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I prefer trains with windows that can be opened - but where you can control the amount that they open. In other words, bring back sliding windows and get rid of hopper windows, that only have two extreme settings - closed or fully open.
As others comment, AirCon is often set at too high a temperature, which tends to induce headaches for me. And non working AirCon on those rare hot sunny days makes train travel very unpleasant.
As others comment, AirCon is often set at too high a temperature, which tends to induce headaches for me. And non working AirCon on those rare hot sunny days makes train travel very unpleasant.
They should really be asking us to turn the aircon down. The operating procedures for 380s state that the windows should only be opened if the aircon has failed in the coach. if this is the case only the driver or guard should open the windows and also isolate the body end doors of the coach with failed aircon in the open position to allow through air movement.
Ticket examiners are not trained to isolate the body end doors, so they should not do anything beyond asking for the aircon to be turned down. The 380 being a Desiro is quite clever and alerts us to aircon faults and even tells us how to rectify them or what actions should be taken if you can't rectify the fault.
While it's been full and at a stand like you referred to at Paddington? My experience has been that unless the train is moving opening the windows makes very little difference.
I expect so, you can at least stand near it to get a gulp of air.
But the best thing is - they work even better when the train is moving but the A/C's broken.
Which is fine for the person who is near the window, but not much use for anyone else.
US rapid transit stock demonstrates that fully effective air con in hot ambient conditions with multiple doors opening every minute or two is quite possible, it's just cost concerns that lead to ineffective UK products, particularly on diesel stock. It would be interesting to know just what Chiltern did to their 165s to make them much more effective than the equivalents at Paddington.
Fully sealed windows on electric stock make no provision for being stuck on the line with a power failure for extended periods. The RAIB report into the Thameslink breakdown on a summer evening at Kentish Town a few years ago demonstrated that, although supplied with air con that theoretically could continue to function after power loss, it did not do so due to a separate design feature of electrical load shedding which cut in far quicker than specified.
Window vents openable by the crew are less than practical on OPO services, where the driver is generally fully occupied elsewhere at times of power failure.
Fully sealed windows on electric stock make no provision for being stuck on the line with a power failure for extended periods. The RAIB report into the Thameslink breakdown on a summer evening at Kentish Town a few years ago demonstrated that, although supplied with air con that theoretically could continue to function after power loss, it did not do so due to a separate design feature of electrical load shedding which cut in far quicker than specified.
Window vents openable by the crew are less than practical on OPO services, where the driver is generally fully occupied elsewhere at times of power failure.
It still leads to more air circulation than not having any open windows. If not, why do people have opening windows on their houses ?
Yes, it will provide more circulation than no windows, but really if we're talking busy train, at a stand, on a hot day it won't really make that much difference. As to houses - they are rarely down in concrete canyons, and aren't often filled to standing room only.
I'm not against having windows that are capable of being opened, but if it is a mutually exclusive choice between windows that open or air conditioning, then it is AC every time for me.
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AC certainly has its place. I just believe you need some back-up for when it goes down.
I don't disagree with you there.
Bletchleyite
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Mikey C
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The Underground S stock does a pretty reasonable job, so it shows what can be done these days
The 165s didn't originally have air con, so the Chiltern aircon is relatively recently installed
Don't the 166s still have the original NSE era aircon?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, and it doesn't work.
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One of the eternal problems will always be passengers opening the windows when the AC clearly is functioning.
Funny no one still hasn't come up with a system that automatically locks the windows shut when the AC works properly.
Funny no one still hasn't come up with a system that automatically locks the windows shut when the AC works properly.
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