Passenger accident at Hayes & Harlington station Report

[OpsWeb]

For those who have seen the bulletins up in crew rooms - the accident report where a passenger was caught in the door and dragged a short distance has been released by the RAIB:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-122016-passenger-accident-at-hayes-harlington-station

At around 13:10 hrs on 25 July 2015, a passenger was dragged along the platform at Hayes & Harlington station, London, when the 11:37 hrs First Great Western service from Oxford to London Paddington departed while her hand was trapped in a door. The passenger, who had arrived on the platform as the doors were about to close, had placed her hand between the closing door leaves....

Makes for some interesting reading.

 

[455driver]

Very carefully worded so it isnt too negative towards DOO isnt it!

Got to toe the party line being a Government department!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Very carefully worded so it isnt too negative towards DOO isnt it!

Got to toe the party line being a Government department!

Is that an appropriate phrase considering it was a foot in the door!

 

[455driver]

Is that an appropriate phrase considering it was a foot in the door!

Deleted.

 

[Flamingo]

Very carefully worded so it isnt too negative towards DOO isnt it!

Got to toe the party line being a Government department!

Yes, I thought that...

 

[Jonny]

Wasn't there a similar one at Newcastle a while back, but due to a guard error?

And wasn't there another, worse, incident involving the guard making a serious error at Liverpool James Street?

Go figure...

 

[greaterwest]

Wasn't there a similar one at Newcastle a while back, but due to a guard error?

And wasn't there another, worse, incident involving the guard making a serious error at Liverpool James Street?

Go figure...

I believe the Liverpool James St. incident was the guard allowing the train to be dispatched in the hope that a drunk teenager would realise it's moving & stop leaning on the train as it departed. A very silly mistake indeed.

Our investigation identified that the train driver and other railway staff held the same misunderstanding: if someone had a hand trapped in a door it would not be possible for the door interlock light to illuminate and a driver to take power. This is not the case, and the door was found to be compliant with all applicable standards after the accident.

Surely this is obvious though, on most stock, I always assumed, the doors must be fully closed for interlock to be obtained.

What "applicable standards" did the door comply with?

 

[Harbornite]

Wasn't there a similar one at Newcastle a while back, but due to a guard error?

And wasn't there another, worse, incident involving the guard making a serious error at Liverpool James Street?

Go figure...

Aye, the latter incident resulted in the death of the victim. I shall say no more on the matter.

 

[SouthStand]

Interesting reading. Shows what we knew all along - some passengers are stupid, and some drivers aren't working in a safe manner.

 

[edwin_m]

Surely this is obvious though, on most stock, I always assumed, the doors must be fully closed for interlock to be obtained.

What "applicable standards" did the door comply with?

Reading the report lots of people obviously think that, including quite a few railway staff.

It says that an object 25mm thick in between the door leaves should prevent interlock being obtained, and a smaller object should be able to be removed from between the leaves using a force that most people would be able to apply. Unfortunately this isn't always the case particularly if the train moves away and the unfortunate person is trying to pull at an angle. Although the current standard wasn't in force when the 165s were built it appears the door in question complied, so the fact the accident still happened probably means standards will be made more stringent.

I guess if the door had a hard edge instead of a soft rubber one then it might be possible to detect a much smaller object, though it would require some careful setting of the interlock switches and even then something like one of those straps people use to prevent toddlers wandering off could still be a problem. The door would also be more draughty due to a poorer seal and if it did close on someone it would hurt more.

It seems the edge detectors on the latest stock are better, and the report says these have been fitted experimentally to a 365. For some reason the Networker doors seem to be involved in more than their fair share of trapping incidents.

 

[carriageline]

Interesting to read about the driver and using their mobile phone..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

I guess if the door had a hard edge instead of a soft rubber one then it might be possible to detect a much smaller object, though it would require some careful setting of the interlock switches and even then something like one of those straps people use to prevent toddlers wandering off could still be a problem. The door would also be more draughty due to a poorer seal and if it did close on someone it would hurt more.

There is a balance to be struck. If the threshold is too small, expect massive delays during rush hours, when all manners of items may get caught all the time.

Educating the general public still has a big part to play, obviously. There is very little effective protection that is not already in place against sheer stupidity, however, unless everything is made completely foolproof, in which case we can all kiss goodbye to peak time capacity on our network.

 

[455driver]

Aye, the latter incident resulted in the death of the victim. I shall say no more on the matter.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Educating the general public still has a big part to play, obviously.

Deleted.

 

[Phil.]

Very carefully worded so it isnt too negative towards DOO isnt it!

Got to toe the party line being a Government department!

You sound like a remainer. The result wasn't what you wanted.

 

[455driver]

You sound like a remainer. The result wasn't what you wanted.

Deleted.

 

[Phil.]

The result was exactly what I expected, it was just the (very careful) way it was worded which got my attention!

All accident reports are carefully worded. The R.A.I.B. does not set out to apportion blame, it simply states the facts and the cause.

 

[TheEdge]

You sound like a remainer. The result wasn't what you wanted.

No, you could predict this would stay very clear of pointing out risks with DOO. And, shock horror, it did.

 

[Harbornite]

Ah yes everyones favourite where the 16 year old person who died was under the influence of a great deal of alcohol and illegal drugs which apparently had no bearing on the incident!

Did I blame the guard? No, so get your facts straight, although the guard was found guilty so what can I say? He should have checked that the platform was clear and the girl wasn't fully responsible for her own actions because she under the influence of alcohol, which was her fault in that sense. Having said that, these incidents are relatively scarce both on DOO and guard operated trains in relation to the number of trains that run so I don't think that such incidents can be used to justify rolling out DOO per se.

Oh and since everyones favourite(?), how many incidents have we had on guard operated trains and how many on DOO trains?

This is quite poorly worded but it's a good question nonetheless. I won't delve too far into the matter but a quick search brings up this.
http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/the-pros-and-cons-of-driver-only-operation

 

[Taunton]

Members of the public are well used to automatic doors in many walks of life. Trains are just one of many such cases they encounter. Lifts in buildings (and indeed in railway stations, getting you to the platform) are familiar to all, and the manner in which their doors retract again if you put your hand between the door leaves is widely known. I bet the RAIB office has lifts just like this. Nobody would expect the lift to just start off and chop your hand off, and no lift manufacturer could possible get away with such a product.

So we have to ask why are trains different.

 

[matt_world2004]

Reading the report it sounds like the fgw either dismissed the passengers complaint or tried to cover it up there were several opportunities to initially report it to the raib and it didn't happen, I find it deeply suspicious that the driver was ,et at paddington yet they didn't believe the woman had caught her hand in the door.

 

[Taunton]

I don't think there was any intention to cover up, but the report shows very poor and overly bureaucratic handling of the reports, and it is quite possible it would have been lost before someone realised that a serious event had happened.

This process of reporting to someone in a back office in Swindon who doesn't seem to understand much about railways is just what has happened before, as it was a key part of the Southall collision, where a message about a failed AWS was taken and then discarded by someone who didn't seem to understand what AWS was. That someone, possibly in the same room as previously, has not understood how to handle this event seems to show that nothing has yet been learned there on that front.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Wasn't there a similar one at Newcastle a while back, but due to a guard error?

It was mostly related to the curvature of the station platform at Newcastle, together with a design flaw in the doors of the 350.

Ah yes everyones favourite where the 16 year old person who died was under the influence of a great deal of alcohol and illegal drugs which apparently had no bearing on the incident!

Without wishing to rehash that incident yet again, the guard gave two bells when he could see her leaning on the train. She was leaning on the train because she was p!ssed, but she was still obviously leaning on the train. He was rightly convicted.

The point is that the guard saw her, whereas the recurring issue with these DOO incidents is that the driver doesn't see the injured passenger. It's the same with the drag incidents on Underground, on Tyne and Wear Metro and on DOO heavy rail services.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

One of the things I find most disturbing about this, having read the report, is that the whole incident was nearly entirely dismissed.

Were it not for the night-shift at Swindon RIS reviewing the daytime log and going "Hang on a minute..." and arranging for the CCTV to be captured, it seems that the whole thing would have been written off by railway staff as never having happened. (See paragraphs 26 & 28.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah yes everyones favourite where the 16 year old person who died was under the influence of a great deal of alcohol and illegal drugs which apparently had no bearing on the incident!

Yes, the RAIB totally glossed over it, didn't they? :roll: They spoke about it in the opening paragraph, for God's sake:

At 23:29 hrs on Saturday 22 October 2011, sixteen year-old Georgia Varley was struck and killed by the train she had left 30 seconds earlier. She was leaning against the train as it began to move out of the station and when she fell, the platform edge gap was wide enough for her to fall through and onto the track. Her post-mortem toxicology report recorded a blood alcohol concentration nearly three times the UK legal drink drive limit and she was wearing high heeled shoes at the time of the accident.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the RAIB doesn't apportion blame, merely the causes and lessons to be learned for the railway.

 

[matchmaker]

Very carefully worded so it isnt too negative towards DOO isnt it!

Got to toe the party line being a Government department!

I've read it and I'm afraid I have to disagree.

 

[Harbornite]

Yes, the RAIB totally glossed over it, didn't they? :roll: They spoke about it in the opening paragraph, for God's sake:



It is worth reminding ourselves that the RAIB doesn't apportion blame, merely the causes and lessons to be learned for the railway.

455driver seems to have a problem with anyone who dares question the judgement or action of rail staff, even if the law has found them guilty.

 

[MrPIC]

It seems to me that the driver didn't see that the passenger had a hand STUCK in the doors. I reckon DOO trains should have an external PA system fitted, a few speakers along the outside of the train in order to tell people to stand clear of the train, because otherwise if you are 4-8-12 coaches away from a passenger vigorously hammering the door buttons etc, they can't hear you shouting at them. They'll stay there touching the train if you don't move thinking you are going to re-release the doors.
I reckon the driver probably expected the passenger to move away once the train started moving, and once it did start moving he could no longer see the monitors.
As for mobile phone usage, there's no excuse these days for using a mobile and driving trains.

 

[Mojo]

So we have to ask why are trains different.

Because lifts, shopping centre doors, etc. are designed to be operated
automatically with no human involvement.

Train doors have a human that initiates the close procedure and is
supposed to check that all items are clear.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With a 12 coach train if all doors are within the platform will the guard have a specific place they do the close doors from or is it whichever local panel is the nearest

 

[Matt Taylor]

It will depend on a number of factors, I worked a 12 car this morning and at some stations you can only dispatch from a specific location due to curvature of the platform while at other stations you may be able to work from any door you choose.