EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

Most people voted leave on the realities they experience in day to day life - not the lies, not the hype but how they perceive their world around them and how it has changed.

Even when what they perceive is wrong - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

The British public have it wrong on immigrants and wrong on the EU.

According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Even when what they perceive is wrong - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

You say they have and a newspaper says they have. They say different.

 

[radamfi]

I don't know what trade barriers that article is referring to. Norway and Switzerland are part of the single market.

I'm puzzled myself, but there must be some downside otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[Mvann]

The problem is successive governments have blamed the EU for problems, and then wonder why, when they say remain is the best option, no one believes them

 

[EM2]

You say they have and a newspaper says they have. They say different.

Prove it then. Where is the evidence? You were talking about Bolsover and Newcastle-Under-Lyme and Tamworth the other day, but with no evidence to back up your claim.
Even a search for 'Immigration in Bolsover' or 'Immigration in Tamworth' doesn't bring up anything, not even from local news outlets.

 

[Mvann]

Anyway I need to carry on the research for brexit the movie. The story of how a non legally binding vote sent the world into complete melt down.

 

[radamfi]

Anyway I need to carry on the research for brexit the movie. The story of how a non legally binding vote sent the world into complete melt down.

You should have at least enough material for another series of House of Cards.

 

[northwichcat]

So what - there was a time it was on parity.

Very briefly during the worse recession since the 1930s.

 

[anme]

I thought the people of Britain were too uninformed to be trusted with a decision like that?

Well, they certainly didn't cover themselves in glory last week. But do you have a better suggestion? This is a very fundamental decision.

Where do you stand on it - EEA in or out?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Prove it then. Where is the evidence? You were talking about Bolsover and Newcastle-Under-Lyme and Tamworth the other day, but with no evidence to back up your claim.
Even a search for 'Immigration in Bolsover' or 'Immigration in Tamworth' doesn't bring up anything, not even from local news outlets.

Was in Rugby and Nuneaton the other week - admittedly more unease in Rugby (a minor scuffle in fact) about the Poles there than in Nuneaton but locals in the pub not happy.

Similar to your claims I can not prove every one - the same as you can't prove your claims either. You are quoting statistics that are skewed or out of date or newspapers with an agenda. Only thing I have is people I have encountered on my travels.

Short of taking a video cam with me and interviewing everyone I have met not sure what else I can do even then you'd probably say I made it up and hired actors - same way as I don't believe your 'official statistics' and newspapers

 

[anme]

I'm puzzled myself, but there must be some downside otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it.

There are a lot of downsides of EEA membership compared to EU membership, but in this case I suspect the interviewee or the journalist are possibly misinformed.

 

[Mvann]

You should have at least enough material for another series of House of Cards.

You wait til trump wins the American elections. That's when the real fun will start.

 

[miami]

Was in Rugby and Nuneaton the other week - admittedly more unease in Rugby (a minor scuffle in fact) about the Poles there than in Nuneaton but locals in the pub not happy.

Similar to your claims I can not prove every one - the same as you can't prove your claims either. You are quoting statistics that are skewed or out of date or newspapers with an agenda. Only thing I have is people I have encountered on my travels.

Short of taking a video cam with me and interviewing everyone I have met not sure what else I can do even then you'd probably say I made it up and hired actors - same way as I don't believe your 'official statistics' and newspapers

People have had enough of experts, enough of facts. They'd rather listen to the rhetoric down the pub and yell at 5 year old kids and british journalists with a different skin colour and american marines.

 

[anme]

Was in Rugby and Nuneaton the other week - admittedly more unease in Rugby (a minor scuffle in fact) about the Poles there than in Nuneaton but locals in the pub not happy.

Similar to your claims I can not prove every one - the same as you can't prove your claims either. You are quoting statistics that are skewed or out of date or newspapers with an agenda. Only thing I have is people I have encountered on my travels.

Short of taking a video cam with me and interviewing everyone I have met not sure what else I can do even then you'd probably say I made it up and hired actors - same way as I don't believe your 'official statistics' and newspapers

There's no point debating with someone who doesn't believe facts. We're quickly into Donald Trump territory. I will simply ask how many "Poles" you met? And how did you know they were "Poles"?

I was recently in the English provinces and was treated to a lecture from my taxi driver on the local "Polish" community. He claimed there were "two or three" Polish shops on the local High Street, which proved to be a complete lie - much to my disappointment as I wanted to buy some pierogi.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You wait til trump wins the American elections. That's when the real fun will start.

I believe you are probably right.
Our grey (and the even greyer EU) politicians have missed the mood for change among people and by only offering more of the same are in danger of turning people to vote for something 'different' . The sad thing is the only people offering them anything different are extreme right wing nutters.

 

[EM2]

Short of taking a video cam with me and interviewing everyone I have met not sure what else I can do even then you'd probably say I made it up and hired actors - same way as I don't believe your 'official statistics' and newspapers

Will you believe the 2015 electoral register from Bolsover?
http://www.bolsover.gov.uk/images/N/Nationality_Information_From_Electoral_Register.pdf

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There's no point debating with someone who doesn't believe facts. We're quickly into Donald Trump territory. I will simply ask how many "Poles" you met? And how did you know they were "Poles"?

I was recently in the English provinces and was treated to a lecture from my taxi driver on the local "Polish" community. He claimed there were "two or three" Polish shops on the local High Street, which proved to be a complete lie - much to my disappointment as I wanted to buy some pierogi.

The simple fact is there are far more people in the country than the official figures state - so quoting the official figures as facts is misleading.
. Are you telling me the Romanians who live in tents in the local park are officially registered ?
Are you telling me that the crowd of migrant workers sleeping rough by the railway are part of the 'official figures ?

The FACT is the government and the office of statistics doesn't know - they have lost count on immigration so when you quote them as facts they are nothing of the sort.
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Will you believe the 2015 electoral register from Bolsover?
http://www.bolsover.gov.uk/images/N/Nationality_Information_From_Electoral_Register.pdf

I believe the electoral register but only a fool would take that as being representative of who actually lives anywhere.
When the poll tax came in hundreds of thousands of people disappeared off it.
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People have had enough of experts, enough of facts. They'd rather listen to the rhetoric down the pub and yell at 5 year old kids and british journalists with a different skin colour and american marines.

I could just go on a counter argument about the 'well rounded' citizens who are migrating to this country .... it's the typical inverted racism that clouds any sensible debate on immigration. Yes we have our yobs and criminals and Nazi sympathisers and our share of problems - like a million people on the housing waiting list. I just don't think we should be importing anymore to add to them at this moment in time.

 

[Mvann]

There's no point debating with someone who doesn't believe facts. We're quickly into Donald Trump territory. I will simply ask how many "Poles" you met? And how did you know they were "Poles"?

I was recently in the English provinces and was treated to a lecture from my taxi driver on the local "Polish" community. He claimed there were "two or three" Polish shops on the local High Street, which proved to be a complete lie - much to my disappointment as I wanted to buy some pierogi.

Come to Peterborough. I believe there are polish shops in eastfield, and, if not polish, definateley have polish food and drink for sale

 

[Gutfright]

Come to Peterborough. I believe there are polish shops in eastfield, and, if not polish, definateley have polish food and drink for sale

There are many Polish shops where I live, but they don't sell their cheap under-the-counter Polish fags to British people. BREXIT!!!

Well, they certainly didn't cover themselves in glory last week. But do you have a better suggestion? This is a very fundamental decision.

Where do you stand on it - EEA in or out?

I'm 93.7% sure we've already had this conversation in the old EU thread. The EEA is a terrible compromise which suits virtually nobody.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't think Article 50 will even get triggered.

In that case you will have terrible economic uncertainty and the multi nationals will leave as a result, taking hundreds of thousands of jobs with them. For the sake of the economy Article 50 has to be triggered as soon as the new Tory leader is elected.
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I'm 93.7% sure we've already had this conversation in the old EU thread. The EEA is a terrible compromise which suits virtually nobody.

So what would you have instead? What would you say to Vodafone who have said that they will move their headquarters unless we retain freedom of movement?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Some would argue that the state is a legal mafia, and the mafia is an illegal state*. Both demand protection money using the threat of violence (if you consider enforced loss of liberty a form of violence, which some people do).

If you go along with that analogy, one might say that by voting to leave the people of Britain voted to pay protection money to one mafia instead of two.

*I think this definition is too shallow, but I'm struggling to define the exact demarcation between a mafia and a state. In some cases the two things are one and the same.

Precisely. The only real difference between them is that one is recognised as legitimate and the other not, but that's arbitrary, since legitimacy of states tends to come solely from their legal recognition by other states.

 

[Gutfright]

So what would you have instead?

Instead of the EEA I'd have a trade agreement as close to the EEA as we can get, but which allows the UK full control over immigration.

What would you say to Vodafone who have said that they will move their headquarters unless we retain freedom of movement?

I'd tell Vodafone to pay their chuffing taxes.

Then I'd turn round to you and chastise you for your dishonesty. Vodafone said they could move their headquarters, not that they will.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Instead of the EEA I'd have a trade agreement as close to the EEA as we can get, but which allows the UK full control over immigration.

And the chances of this happening are? In return for trade agreements you can bet your bottom dollar that the EU will expect concessions from the UK. What do you think they might be?

I'd tell Vodafone to pay their chuffing taxes.

Have you any evidence that they don't do that at the moment?

Then I'd turn round to you and chastise you for your dishonesty. Vodafone said they could move their headquarters, not that they will.

Are you always drunk when you post on this forum? Have you any evidence that Vodafone won't move their headquarters if they don't get freedom of movement? What would you say to those people who lost well paid jobs if Vodafone did move it's headquarters? Would you tell them to have a drink?

 

[Gutfright]

And the chances of this happening are? In return for trade agreements you can bet your bottom dollar that the EU will expect concessions from the UK. What do you think they might be?

I can't name all of them, but I'm reasonably sure the EU will want to put tariffs on British chocolate. Google "EU chocolate wars" if you don't know what I'm on about.

Are you always drunk when you post on this forum?

Usually, but not always.

This happens to be one of those rare occasions where I'm actually sober.

Have you any evidence that Vodafone won't move their headquarters if they don't get freedom of movement? What would you say to those people who lost well paid jobs if Vodafone did move it's headquarters? Would you tell them to have a drink?

Have you any evidence that Vodafone definitely will move their headquarters if they don't get freedom of movement? If not, why did you say they will relocate instead of saying they could?

I have to say there has been a noticable drop in the quality of your recent posts. Could it be that you're drunk, perchance?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Usually, but not always.

Well that say's a lot about the quality if your posts.

This happens to be one of those rare occasions where I'm actually sober.

Well you say that....
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Have you any evidence that Vodafone definitely will move their headquarters if they don't get freedom of movement?

The very fact that they have suggested it would lead one to think that they are serious. Freedom of movement is clearly very important to them so there is nothing to suggest that they won't take action if we don't retain freedom of movement.

I have to say there has been a noticable drop in the quality of your recent posts. Could it be that you're drunk, perchance?

Well that's your opinion, not mine. And to answer your question I haven't been drunk in decades. Perhaps you could learn from my example.

 

[Gutfright]

The very fact that they have suggested it would lead one to think that they are serious. Freedom of movement is clearly very important to them so there is nothing to suggest that they won't take action if we don't retain freedom of movement.

Why did you say Vodafone will move their headquarters, instead of saying they could?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why did you say Vodafone will move their headquarters, instead of saying they could?

Oh that was a just a typo.

Anyway, how would you console Vodafone employees if their headquarters were moved to the EU. Would you advise them to drown their sorrows in alcohol?

 

[Gutfright]

Oh that was a just a typo.

If you had typed "ciuld" instead of "could", I could buy that excuse.

"will" instead of "could"? Hmmm. Not so sure that's a typo. Guess I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's move on...

Anyway, how would you console Vodafone employees if their headquarters were moved to the EU. Would you advise them to drown their sorrows in alcohol?

I'd advise them to take revenge and go all Project Mayhem on their corporate overlords who've chewed them up and spat them out.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Come to Peterborough. I believe there are polish shops in eastfield, and, if not polish, definateley have polish food and drink for sale

And there has been a Polish community in Peterborough since the late 1940s when many refugees fleeing Stalin's takeover of Eastern Europe settled here. Peterborough was quite well known for the number of these Poles who found work on the railway. Similar concentrations of Poles could be found in Harrow/Wembley and in Bradford. And equally many such refugees settled elsewhere around the country and their descendants would now only be distinguished as such by their surnames.

There are many Polish shops where I live, but they don't sell their cheap under-the-counter Polish fags to British people.

Assuming you intend this remark as criticism I presume you have reported your concerns to Trading Standards or even Customs & Excise?

 

[Mvann]

From what I've been told, I think there was a number of polish free fighters here earlier than that. Especially as a lot flew for the RAF in ww2