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The best evidence yet that Transport Focus is impotent

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Flamingo

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You remember quite correctly!

It was in Browning v Floyd (1946) KB 597
Arthur Donald Floyd, the husband, actually had a valid ticket in his pocket during travel, but instead presented his wife's unused outward portion of her return ticket, intending to use his own on a future occasion. He was deemed not to have paid his fare; as an offence under RoRA Section 5
His Offence was found to have been captured by three Acts of Parliament and one Railway Byelaw (the given ticket), and Doris Floyd, his wife, was found guilty of aiding and abetting her husband to travel with intent to avoid payment and of transferring a partly used ticket one Railway Byelaw offence in her own right. Both Guilty of Byelaw 6.
Thank you. I wonder what Transport Focus would have made of that case, it they had been in existence in 1946.

If faced with issuing a UFN in lieu of an invalid ticket, I might ask if I should take a picture of the ticket that had been presented and UFN before the passenger goes on their way - it might save future argument...
 
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319321

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The problem here is we do not have all the facts. I wrote the above based on the facts as they have been presented and are known to us.

It is not clear if the lady presented a different ticket, or if the ticket inspector recorded seeing a different ticket. I feel it is more likely the latter occurred. CCTV evidence would be needed.

I feel it is highly unlikely that Mrs H deliberately bought two tickets in order to only present one on examination and another on the gate, as when she got to Edinburgh her ticket (not tickets) were declared valid. I doubt she would have made a complaint to Transport Focus if she was just trying it on.

Were I a judge trying this case, I would have some questions ehich include that the guard had powers that he did not use. He could have used an MG11 to seize the ticket. He didn't. Why not?
 
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Via Bank

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Free money of course!!

And this is somehow worse than the Railway demanding "free money" by falsely accusing Mrs H of having an invalid ticket… how?

It's basic customer service. If you betray the customer's trust by embarrassing them in front of other customers, falsely accusing them of fare evasion and trying to extort money from them, why would that person ever consider travelling by train again if they expect this is how they will be treated?
 

Tetchytyke

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Free money of course!!

It's no more "free money" than the £80 "administration charges" that Abellio had a fondness for demanding in Yorkshire and Lancashire until recently...

And as I have said before given the large membership you have on here if you wanted to you could actually try and force chaneg through being a pressure group

Do we think a rail enthusiast group would be more or less successful at effecting change in the rail industry than, to choose a totally random example, the RMT's efforts at protecting the jobs of guards and ticket office clerks at GTR?

I'd love to think a strongly worded letter to my MP would change anything.
 

AlterEgo

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The wording of the Transport Focus case study does not suggest that Scotrail rescinded the UPFN at the first opportunity. I could be wrong about that, however.

On re-reading, yes you are correct.

I suppose we will never know whether the passenger presented the wrong ticket or not.
 

rs101

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Thank you. I wonder what Transport Focus would have made of that case, it they had been in existence in 1946.

If faced with issuing a UFN in lieu of an invalid ticket, I might ask if I should take a picture of the ticket that had been presented and UFN before the passenger goes on their way - it might save future argument...


Sounds like an eminently sensible idea. So unlikely to be implemented by management any time soon...
 

Clip

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And this is somehow worse than the Railway demanding "free money" by falsely accusing Mrs H of having an invalid ticket… how?

Of course it isnt - they were not asking for 'free money' and you know it, the guard made an error and this was corrected when they got to the station and then got in touch with Scotrail afterwards.

It's basic customer service. If you betray the customer's trust by embarrassing them in front of other customers, falsely accusing them of fare evasion and trying to extort money from them, why would that person ever consider travelling by train again if they expect this is how they will be treated?

your posts become more impressive each time you try and join in with these threads - there is no evidence that the person was made to feel embarrassed or that the railway tried to 'extrort money' from her - you are making that up arent you? She was asked to fill out a UPFN which is nothing that you have claimed, or tried to claim.

It's no more "free money" than the £80 "administration charges" that Abellio had a fondness for demanding in Yorkshire and Lancashire until recently...

Totally different scenarios and companys I am afriad so you cant compare the two however Ill point out that for the old Northern its either that letter or go to court(i'm sure I know which one I would prefer if it ever happenned) which they would be allowed to do as per the rules and regs laid out for them and which, as people point out often, that is so much harder to do in Scotland in as much as it rarely happens.


Do we think a rail enthusiast group would be more or less successful at effecting change in the rail industry than, to choose a totally random example, the RMT's efforts at protecting the jobs of guards and ticket office clerks at GTR?

I'd love to think a strongly worded letter to my MP would change anything.
Well if people are going to bury their heads in the ground and not try anything to change the way TOCs can be held to account by a proper ombudsman then I would kindly request that people stop moaning about there not being one!

And no you cant simply compare petitioning for an effective ombudsman with employment issues - the two are vastly different.
 

DaveNewcastle

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The limit in small claims cases costs is around £80 I believe.
If Mrs H brought her claim through the "Small Claims Court" procedure in Scotland, then there will be no award of costs for claims under £200 (which is a threshold I would expect to be above the value of her claim) or would be limited to £150 if the claim is between £200 and £1500.

However, I would hesitate to advise taking such a claim through the "Small Claims Court" procedure, having regard to the wider circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If faced with issuing a UFN in lieu of an invalid ticket, I might ask if I should take a picture of the ticket that had been presented and UFN before the passenger goes on their way - it might save future argument...
I don't know if any operators have a policy which includes photos, but it seems a very sensible step to take - at the very least, note the identifying ticket reference number. It may even become helpful later to have noted the date, time and place of purchase and the card holder's name if any.
 

319321

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DaveNewcastles earlier post warning that taking action against a TOC might incur substantial costs:
. . . and again, as stated above, the appropriate damages under these regulations, if an action was successful, are likely to be no more than the cost of the unused ticket, plus, perhaps, costs in preparing the matter for Court at the LIP rate of £19 per hour, which due to the simplicity of the matter are unlikely to exceed half a day. If successful.
Costs against her if unsuccessful are likely to be substantially higher.
DaveNewcastle's post just now saying that no costs would be awarded:
If Mrs H brought her claim through the "Small Claims Court" procedure in Scotland, then there will be no award of costs for claims under £200 (which is a threshold I would expect to be above the value of her claim) or would be limited to £150 if the claim is between £200 and £1500.

However, I would hesitate to advise taking such a claim through the "Small Claims Court" procedure, having regard to the wider circumstances.

So your earlier assertion that the Costs awarded against her would be higher completely false, as there would be no costs awarded if the amount claimed was less than £200 .

(and, as a figure pulled out of the air without having conducted any research into the matter nor having the full facts at hand, this kind of amount seems reasonable to me).
 
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DaveNewcastle

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DaveNewcastles earlier post warning that taking action against a TOC might incur substantial costs:

. . . .

So your earlier assertion that the Costs awarded against her would be higher completely false, as there would be no costs awarded if the amount claimed was less than £200 .
Please don't be so hasty to make such accusations. The apparent contrdiction falls away when you re-read the posts more carefully. My claims are not 'completely false'.

It was you who introduced the suggestion that Mrs H used the 'Small Claims Court' procedure, one which I said I was hesitant to advise. I remain as confident that a Claim through the Courts, whether in England or in Scotland, would expose the unsuccessful litigant to the risk of 'substantial costs' being awarded against them.

Since your reference to the 'Small Claims Court' procedure, we have both referred to the low limits to costs which apply there.

I'll disregard your 'ideas' on this thread from now on. I haven't been able to agree with them until now, and my observations and comments don't seem to be helping.
 

Clip

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Please don't be so hasty to make such accusations. The apparent contrdiction falls away when you re-read the posts more carefully. My claims are not 'completely false'.

It was you who introduced the suggestion that Mrs H used the 'Small Claims Court' procedure, one which I said I was hesitant to advise. I remain as confident that a Claim through the Courts, whether in England or in Scotland, would expose the unsuccessful litigant to the risk of 'substantial costs' being awarded against them.

Since your reference to the 'Small Claims Court' procedure, we have both referred to the low limits to costs which apply there.

I'll disregard your 'ideas' on this thread from now on. I haven't been able to agree with them until now, and my observations and comments don't seem to be helping.

Dave, thanks for being so clinical and bringing some clarity to these proceedings, as ever.
 

Flamingo

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I don't know if any operators have a policy which includes photos, but it seems a very sensible step to take - at the very least, note the identifying ticket reference number. It may even become helpful later to have noted the date, time and place of purchase and the card holder's name if any.

That would be a preferable "low tech" solution, I was needlessly complicating the process!

Noting the ticket number would prevent another ticket being produced at a later date, or confirm the ticket produced at a later date was indeed the ticket that was originally presented, which after all, is the aim.

I think I'll start doing that on any UFN's I issue in those circumstances. I like removing uncertainty (or loopholes!).

(Although, TBH, I very rarely bother issuing anything if the passenger has any sort of ticket, I'll just give "words of advice"!)
 
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clagmonster

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I also can't help but wonder whether Mrs H was using a Tweedback Flyer...
Interesting thought. However, were the Tweedbank tickets not all SDS, whereas the Transport Focus report refers to an off peak ticket.

There certainly would seem to be something amiss that isn't reported.
 

Clip

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It must, once again, be stressed that Transport Focus is not an ombudsman. It is a watchdog, and has no more power than the television programme of the same name.

And yet you decide to make a thread calling them impotent - did you imagine they had any power to start with then?
 

All Line Rover

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And yet you decide to make a thread calling them impotent - did you imagine they had any power to start with then?

The current arrangement appears to be based on the mistaken assumption that a "persuasive" voice is a sufficient counterbalance to the powers held by TOCs.
 

bb21

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To be an effective watchdog/ombudsman, one has to understand how the system works first. Transport Focus are severely lacking in knowledge in many areas.
 

Via Bank

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The current arrangement appears to be based on the mistaken assumption that a "persuasive" voice is a sufficient counterbalance to the powers held by TOCs.

Quite. The reality seems to be that it's a lottery as to whether an inexperienced, law abiding passenger will be able to (a) purchase a ticket at all, (b) select and purchase the appropriate ticket based upon the information available, and (c) having purchased the correct ticket, complete their journey without being harassed by clueless staff members and having money extracted from them under threat of legal action. And as in Vegas, the house always wins.
 

bb21

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Quite. The reality seems to be that it's a lottery as to whether an inexperienced, law abiding passenger will be able to (a) purchase a ticket at all, (b) select and purchase the appropriate ticket based upon the information available, and (c) having purchased the correct ticket, complete their journey without being harassed by clueless staff members and having money extracted from them under threat of legal action. And as in Vegas, the house always wins.

While it may be true in a small number of cases, that's a very poor generalisation.

You obviously ignored the overwhelming majority of journeys that are made without any issue whatsoever, and the thousands of passengers each day with ticketing irregularities who see discretion being used on them and allowed off.
 

yorkie

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Just because most journeys are fine, that doesn't mean it's not a big problem. It is!

Many people I know will overpay because they don't want to get into a potential argument/dispute.
 

najaB

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Just because most journeys are fine, that doesn't mean it's not a big problem. It is!
Not just most, but the vast majority.

TOCs do get things wrong more than they should (they shouldn't get anything wrong ever) but the likelihood that an individual passenger will find themselves on the wrong side revenue protection is quite low - even those who don't have an intention to purchase the correct ticket.
 

319321

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bb21 said:
You obviously ignored the overwhelming majority of journeys that are made without any issue whatsoever, and the thousands of passengers each day with ticketing irregularities who see discretion being used on them and allowed off.
najaB said:
Not just most - journeys are made without issue - but the vast majority.
I've had to spend two weeks having sleepless nights, spent 40 hours (mostly unproductively) dealing with the case and fallen out with a family member because c2c fail to recognise the validity of my ticket and repeatedly accused me of travelling with an invalid ticket and now refuse to handle my complaint.

Thats not a big problem is it?

If I stole all everything you had, I could still turn around and say that I only stole 0.000000001% of the money in the world so theft by me is not a big problem.

It wouldn't make the problem any less big for you as an individual now that you had no way of buying food or housing or washing yourself.

People's lives are being ruined by the behaviour of TOC's and if my example is anything to go by, they are acting with impugnity.
 
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crehld

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While it may be true in a small number of cases, that's a very poor generalisation.

You obviously ignored the overwhelming majority of journeys that are made without any issue whatsoever, and the thousands of passengers each day with ticketing irregularities who see discretion being used on them and allowed off.

Not just most, but the vast majority.

TOCs do get things wrong more than they should (they shouldn't get anything wrong ever) but the likelihood that an individual passenger will find themselves on the wrong side revenue protection is quite low - even those who don't have an intention to purchase the correct ticket.

I'm not for a minute suggesting you both feel this way, but there does seem to be a 'well most of the time things are fine so everything's OK' attitude within the railway industry, which quite frankly I don't think is good enough for a service industry in the 21st century.

Anyway to get back to topic, I honestly have only had positive experiences from Transport focus and every time I've contacted them I've always received the desired outcome. But I do find you have to be explicitly clear about how the railway company is wrong and how I am right, and you also have to be explicitly clear about what resolution you'd like to see. In this respect as a complainant I guess I have to do Transport Focus' work for them, and all they do is add their name to the complaint. But if I were an average punter with no knowledge of railway ticketing matters I doubt I would find them very useful.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm not for a minute suggesting you both feel this way, but there does seem to be a 'well most of the time things are fine so everything's OK' attitude within the railway industry, which quite frankly I don't think is good enough for a service industry in the 21st century.

I think the main problem is that when most of your bread and butter is dealing with people swinging the lead- as is usually the case with revenue protection staff- you lose the ability or willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to implausible stories. People telling the truth will come unstuck because their story is the same as countless others' who are lying. It isn't exclusive to the railway industry, there's a big issue with it in the sector I work in too.

But most journeys are simple returns and most journeys go off without a hassle. You see a distorted view on this forum because this is where people with issues come to vent. Even in the known hotspots, such as Gatwick Express, most journeys go off without a hitch.

But I do find you have to be explicitly clear about how the railway company is wrong and how I am right, and you also have to be explicitly clear about what resolution you'd like to see

This is the same for all complaints handling bodies, not just Transport Focus. If you're not able to articulate why the other side are wrong, and if you're not able to articulate what you want them to do to fix it, then you will be much less likely to get the outcome you desire.

I advise on complaints in my sector and my advice is always to start with what you want as a resolution, and work backwards from there, justifying why you believe you deserve that resolution. And be prepared to compromise or negotiate, so consider asking for a bit more than you actually want (but don't take the pee).

The only time I have had an issue with the railway watchdogs was with London Midland, who told outright lies to London Travelwatch about a delay to a train I was on. I was disappointed that London Travelwatch just took their word at face value, when even the most basic check of Raildar would have showed they were lying. I have had some very positive experiences with Transport Focus, getting free first class travel out of East Coast after a disastrous journey one May, even if I did have to keep on at Transport Focus to get it sorted because East Coast promised it and then dragged their feet.
 
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sheff1

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I'm not for a minute suggesting you both feel this way, but there does seem to be a 'well most of the time things are fine so everything's OK' attitude within the railway industry, which quite frankly I don't think is good enough for a service industry in the 21st century.

I agree. I have no problem when someone seeing an unfamiliar ticket says words to the effect "I am not sure about that, I will just check". But the opening gambit of far too many in the rail industry is to say "that is not valid", "you can't use that here" etc. These people are basically accusing passengers of committing a criminal offence with no shred of evidence whatsoever.

When I have been confronted in such a manner I have always faced down the accuser, but if less confident people end up paying for a new ticket, getting a Penalty Fare or worse I would like to think that Transport Focus would (i) get the matter resolved quickly (ii) ensure TOCs take the necessary actions to prevent similar instances in the future. Unfortunately, based on reports I have seen, it would appear that Transport Focus could not guarantee to do that which, as the title of this thread states, indicates that they are impotent.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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I wonder if I can assist in clarifying two strands of this discussion, as much for the benefit of readers of this forum in the future, as for those currently debating them? They are only very loosely linked.

First, the powers and duties of Transport Focus.
There is no impediment in law which restricts Transport Focus or any other third party from bringing about a civil claim for any amount disputed, or a criminal prosecution for any alleged offence; but neither of those actions are within the organisations remit as summarised in its Constitution. The Transport Focus Constitution can be read here. Perhaps the most relevant clauses to this debate are the first few :
Transport Focus said:
PART A: DUTIES, POWERS AND DELEGATED AUTHORITY

1.
Background
1.1. The duties and powers of the Passengers Council (hereinafter Transport Focus) are set out in the Railways Act 1993, the Transport Act 2000, the Railways Act 2005 (as amended by the Local Transport Act 2008), and the Passengers Council (Non-Railway Functions) Order 2010 (which amended the Transport Act 1985)

1.2. The duties of Transport Focus in respect of railway passenger services and station services in Great Britain may be summarised as follows:
a. To investigate any matter which relates to the provision of railway passenger services or to the provision of station services by a licensed operator;

b. To make representations, if it considers it appropriate to do so, to any service provider;

c. To make recommendations to the Secretary of State only where, on the basis of the information available, it considers any expenditure involved represents good value for money;

d. To keep under review matters affecting the interests of the public in relation to the railway passenger services and station services;

e. To refer matters to the Secretary of State where it believes that a franchisee is contravening, is likely to contravene, any term of the franchise agreement or that the holder of a passenger licence or a station licence is contravening, or likely to contravene, any condition of its licence;

f. To make representation to, and consult, such persons as it thinks appropriate about these matters;​
I suggest that the most relevant power is "to make representations". NO more than that.


The second strand of this discussion that I want to comment on concerns the powers of redress in law which available to an aggreived passenger.
The Courts remain available as a forum to resolve disputes, but these should be reserved for the most intractible cases, where the parties themselves have genuinely tried but failed to resolve the matter between them. In fact, many claimants using the Courts will be asked at some point during the process to confirm that they really have exhausted all available means to resolve the matter with the other party before submitting their claims.

Where the matter concerns a disagreement about a ticket which has been deemed invalid, then (as has been suggested above), then the 'Small Claims Court' procedure is available to seek the recovery of the value of the fare. There will be little opportunity or appetite to discuss the intricacies of routing, ticketing or other regulations - it would be an opportunity to recover the value paid for a Contract which was not fulfilled. This option is available to claimants across the UK, and very often, the claimant does not seek any legal assistance (though one would expect a Company might instruct a legal representative to defend themselves).

Where the passenger seeks more than just the recovery of the amount paid for the ticket, or really thinks there is a merit in achieveing a judicial decision over the intricasies of the arcane railway documents, or complex interpretation of detailled regulations, then the 'Small Claims Court' will not be the appropriate procedure. In England and Wales, normally the prosecution of a Criminal Offence might begin in the Magistrates Court and a claim for a Civil action in the County Court. In Scotland, the Sherriff Court is the place for both (but as has been discussed, there are both procedural and evidential hurdles for Criminal prosecutors in Scotland where the investigating body has not been the Police). The aggreived passenger is quite entitled to bring an action, in Civil or Criminal matters with or without legal representation (if without, then they become a Litigant in Person - LIP), though the LIP who attempts a complex argument should have a very good understanding of the Criminal or Civil Procedure Rules, as well as the relevant Statues, Common Law and distinguished cases.

Alternative and more exotic strategies are available to the more adventurous agreived party, such as seeking an injunction to prevent an offence being committed.

In summary, the passenger refused travel on a ticket which they are confident is valid has recourse to reach a settlement with the train operating Company, to Transport Focus, who may "make representations", to use the "Small Claims Court" procedure to seek the recovery of their payment, or to the Courts to obtain a judicial decision on the specific particulars of their dispute.
These steps should be taken sequentially, and a full risk assessment of the exposure to all risks should be reconsidered afresh at each step.

Hope this helps.
 
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najaB

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I'm not for a minute suggesting you both feel this way, but there does seem to be a 'well most of the time things are fine so everything's OK' attitude within the railway industry, which quite frankly I don't think is good enough for a service industry in the 21st century.
I can't speak for bb21 but I don't think it's acceptable for law abiding passengers to get caught up in the net that is cast to catch fare evaders. But we need to keep things in perspective. There is a problem - that is undeniable. But is it "...a lottery as to whether an inexperienced, law abiding passenger will be able to..."? Is it a "big problem"?

We see a lot of these cases on this forum, but that's to be expected as people won't post when they've been shown discretion.
 

reb0118

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Does anyone actually know what tickets were held by the passenger in question? AFAIAA there is no "Off Peak Weekend Return" from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh.

In fact, again AFAIAA, the only tickets from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh are priced by, and restricted to Cross Country Trains only and hence not valid on ScotRail trains.

We have had many incidences of the Duty Manager at Edinburgh giving out the wrong info on ticketing matters - which is not surprising as retail is NOT part of their remit. Sometimes they "just agree" with the passenger to make them "go away", esp. if like always the $h1t has hit the fan with regard to delays and cancellations.
 

sheff1

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.... Is it a "big problem"?

We see a lot of these cases on this forum, but that's to be expected as people won't post when they've been shown discretion.

I might have misunderstood, but I thought the discussion was not about cases where people have "been shown discretion" rather it concerned those who had been falsely charged for a new ticket / PF when the ticket they already held was entirely valid. I suspect (but obviously do not know) that many people to whom this happens do not post here because they are not aware of the forum and/or they believe the person who tells them their ticket is not valid.

What I do know for certain is that I have been wrongly accused of attempting to use an invalid ticket on a number of occasions over the past few years (I do not count them but it is more than 10). If that indicates a "big problem" depends, of course, on your viewpoint but I believe there is no excuse for any passenger using a valid ticket to be accused of criminality by the ticket checker. Brushing aside such happenings with a 'well most of the time things are fine so everything's OK' attitude will not result in a modification of unacceptable behaviour by those who think it is OK to start off by telling someone "that ticket is not valid".
 
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