Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[infobleep]

I'm not sure how many more times I have to explain what the Equality Act does.

The business must demonstrate that it makes reasonable adjustments to its environment or practices to accommodate the disabled (and in fact other minorities).

A business could for example occupy a high street location, which was fully EA compliant with ramps etc. And it could in theory move, for whatever reason, to an elderly listed building where it would be impossible to make the property accessible.

Many disabled charities and organisations which support businesses have resources online which explain the Act in detail.

But they are not moving buildings in this case. The buildings are the same so I'm not sure it applies. A better example for your argument would be one involving the same building.

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SPT only permit wheelchairs on their Subway trains if they are folded and only two stations have level access (lifts). Do you think it is economical for SPT to introduce lifts at all of its stations? There are times where people in wheelchairs just cannot be accommodated. Mount Everest is inaccessable for a lot of people too, it's just life.

Yes but have they made an adjustment to SPT stations to stop wheelchair access when previously it existed?

If not then I don't see that they have made a reasonable adjustment that is worse or better and in this case they may not have to do so as the adjustments may not be considered reasonable. If adjustments cannot be considered reasonable then they can be worse or better in my opinion.

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[AlterEgo]

But they are not moving buildings in this case. The buildings are the same so I'm not sure it applies. A better example for your argument would be one involving the same building.

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I've illustrated that businesses may make changes to their services or circumstances which on the face of it, make things worse for the disabled.

Yet they can be complaint with the Act.

The key is *reasonable* adjustments.

This is a circular discussion and I suggest you do some reading about the Act, some case studies and how it applies to the proposals put forward by GTR.

 

[infobleep]

I've illustrated that businesses may make changes to their services or circumstances which on the face of it, make things worse for the disabled.

Yet they can be complaint with the Act.

The key is *reasonable* adjustments.

This is a circular discussion and I suggest you do some reading about the Act, some case studies and how it applies to the proposals put forward by GTR.

All I asked was for an example involving the same building.

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[AlterEgo]

All I asked was for an example involving the same building.

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Why would you need one? We aren't talking about buildings; we're talking about trains. Lines have gone DOO since the Equality Act 2010 came into force, and the removal of the guard has yet to be shown to be in breach of the Act.

The Equality Act is a simple piece of legislation which simply takes a view that if you provide a service, you need to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the disabled.

It does NOT mean "every change to your business practices have to consider the disabled at heart or fundamentally improve access".

Lines went DOO on LOROL and taxis were provided in lieu. This satisfies the Act's provisions.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Silly me, I thought it would have been common sense for the OBS to do platform duties like guards do.

It's unethical if anything for them nor to do this.

How hard can it be?

 

[SJN]

If OBS do platform duties like a guard does, then they may as well still be a guard really.

 

[speedy_sticks]

If OBS do platform duties like a guard does, then they may as well still be a guard really.

That's the point , it doesn't matter!

It's customer reassurance, especially in this age of terrorism.

The FACT is that an OBS won't see known criminals, terrorists, drunks, loud teenagers, disabled get on and off. The guard does!

It's bleeding obvious to me why the OBS should be doing platform duties at every stop. All it takes is jumping off and on, is it now required brain science to do?

 

[Haig paxton]

That's the point , it doesn't matter!

It's customer reassurance, especially in this age of terrorism.

The FACT is that an OBS won't see known criminals, terrorists, drunks, loud teenagers, disabled get on and off. The guard does!

It's bleeding obvious to me why the OBS should be doing platform duties at every stop. All it takes is jumping off and on, is it now required brain science to do?

Or indeed rocket surgery...

These OBS people won't be jumping on and off trains to see exactly who is boarding, especially during wet or icy weather when the heavens open up. If they do get off the train how long should they stand on the platform? 5 seconds? 30 seconds? With no control over when doors are about to close I can't see them doing any more than having a quick glance for the benefit of cctv.

So what if the OBS does jump on and off and whilst he or she gets back on a wheelchair rolls up? The doors will close and they will be left behind.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's the point , it doesn't matter!

It's customer reassurance, especially in this age of terrorism.

The FACT is that an OBS won't see known criminals, terrorists, drunks, loud teenagers, disabled get on and off. The guard does!

It's bleeding obvious to me why the OBS should be doing platform duties at every stop. All it takes is jumping off and on, is it now required brain science to do?

Please explain the NPS statistics where, when entire TOCs have gone DOO in the past, people didn't say they felt less safe or secure on board.

 

[LowLevel]

Please explain the NPS statistics where, when entire TOCs have gone DOO in the past, people didn't say they felt less safe or secure on board.

But they do say that the on board customer service experience, particularly in terms of finding on board staff to help you, is pretty universally rubbish on DOO TOCs.

 

[AlterEgo]

But they do say that the on board customer service experience, particularly in terms of finding on board staff to help you, is pretty universally rubbish on DOO TOCs.

Indeed. They criticise the availability of staff on board the train.

Hey presto, OBS is born.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Whilst not an expert on the Disability Discrimination Act and its successor I am aware that as said business have to make reasonable adjustments to grant disabled access. As has been said the classic example is building a ramp which is impossible on a listed building.

However I am not sure this is relevant in Southerns case. They currently run a service which, assuming there is platform access, allows a disabled person to turn up and go. Moving to a service where the disabled then need to book 24 hours in advance is not an improvement and I suspect might fall foul of the Act.

Other companies that have gone DOO might have had an advantage in not offering a turn up and go etc service before the change.

A legal challenge to Southerns plans might be interesting.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whilst not an expert on the Disability Discrimination Act and its successor I am aware that as said business have to make reasonable adjustments to grant disabled access. As has been said the classic example is building a ramp which is impossible on a listed building.

However I am not sure this is relevant in Southerns case. They currently run a service which, assuming there is platform access, allows a disabled person to turn up and go. Moving to a service where the disabled then need to book 24 hours in advance is not an improvement and I suspect might fall foul of the Act.

Other companies that have gone DOO might have had an advantage in not offering a turn up and go etc service before the change.

A legal challenge to Southerns plans might be interesting.

A legal challenge would certainly be interesting.

In the past we've seen, on the railways:

- owing to cascades, lines change rolling stock, and become less accessible by default to some passengers

- whole lines go DOO and replace the rail service with a taxi for those who can't manage

- money saving repairs or replacements to barrow crossings in Wales rendering step free access at certain stations a thing of the past

 

[infobleep]

Why would you need one? We aren't talking about buildings; we're talking about trains. Lines have gone DOO since the Equality Act 2010 came into force, and the removal of the guard has yet to be shown to be in breach of the Act.

The Equality Act is a simple piece of legislation which simply takes a view that if you provide a service, you need to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the disabled.

It does NOT mean "every change to your business practices have to consider the disabled at heart or fundamentally improve access".

Lines went DOO on LOROL and taxis were provided in lieu. This satisfies the Act's provisions.

Well your the one who brought up moving buildings if I remember correctly. So I wanted an example without moving building as the change on the railways doesn't involve moving buildings.

You have at least provided an example of something changing. So you may be right. I think it would be interesting for it to go to court to decide but I don't have the money to take it there.

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[AlterEgo]

Well your the one who brought up moving buildings if I remember correctly. So I wanted an example without moving building as the change on the railways doesn't involve moving buildings.

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See the post immediately prior to yours, where I outline changes specific to the railway.

I'm simply illustrating how - in direct response to a question you posed - yes, services can be made fundamentally less accessible to people with certain disabilities, yet not appear to fall foul of the Act.

 

[infobleep]

See the post immediately prior to yours, where I outline changes specific to the railway.

I'm simply illustrating how - in direct response to a question you posed - yes, services can be made fundamentally less accessible to people with certain disabilities, yet not appear to fall foul of the Act.

Indeed you did. Thanks for that. I've amended my post to include further detail and address that.

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[313103]

Indeed. They criticise the availability of staff on board the train.

Hey presto, OBS is born.

So the OBS that is born is going on existing DOO routes where on board staff presence is rubbish, or on the trains where previously a Guard existed? I can just imagine a OBS on the South London metro.............. NOT!.

 

[speedy_sticks]

A legal challenge would certainly be interesting.

In the past we've seen, on the railways:

- owing to cascades, lines change rolling stock, and become less accessible by default to some passengers

- whole lines go DOO and replace the rail service with a taxi for those who can't manage

- money saving repairs or replacements to barrow crossings in Wales rendering step free access at certain stations a thing of the past

Thanks to you, Hyduke, HH and other GTR insiders, I am now starting to question my existence, what's the point, you folks have shown utter distane for disabled people and obviously believe we shouldn't be treated as an equal any longer.

You folks really care very little about how this is effecting myself and others in my position.

What a hateful community this has turned into.

Money vs Morals.

The above are morally corrupt.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks to you, Hyduke, HH and other GTR insiders, I am now starting to question my existence, what's the point, you folks have shown utter distane for disabled people and obviously believe we shouldn't be treated as an equal any longer.

You folks really care very little about how this is effecting myself and others in my position.

What a hateful community this has turned into.

Money vs Morals.

The above are morally corrupt.

A poor and unnecessarily personal response.

I'm sorry you're taking this personally.

I've outlined several times that I don't necessarily support the changes. I agree that things are going to change for the worse for you. And, I sympathise. I myself have a Disabled Railcard, though I don't have a mobility related condition (thankfully).

What I'm trying to do is dispassionately provide some facts and context to the debate. To say that I don't care is pretty well wide of the mark. I care a lot about our railways, and although a lot of my opinions aren't shared by other members, it would be a dull place if we all agreed. This is a discussion board after all.

But be under no illusion; change is coming and you ain't going to fight it on RailUK. I've said this before: channel your energies into something more constructive.

There is a wealth of opinion on this thread, which in my view marks a sea change in the way railways will operate in the future.

I don't apologise for stating my opinion.

PS: you wouldn't catch me dead working for GTR. I'm a civil servant working in energy market regulation, if you must know.

 

[BRblue]

I very rarely post on this thread now as it does my head in but I will say this about the above posts. Everybody disabled or not should before posting read up on the equalities act 2010, GTR's franchise agreement and GTR's own disabled passenger policy. It makes for interesting reading, they may or may not be playing by the rules, it's all down to interpretation.

 

[highdyke]

Thanks to you, Hyduke, HH and other GTR insiders, I am now starting to question my existence, what's the point, you folks have shown utter distane for disabled people and obviously believe we shouldn't be treated as an equal any longer.

You folks really care very little about how this is effecting myself and others in my position.

What a hateful community this has turned into.

Money vs Morals.

The above are morally corrupt.

A very unfair accusation. The digital railway is coming, the digital transport revolution has started, there's nothing anyone can do about it, the tech is out of the bag. For reasons of cost, capacity, performance, energy it's all change, embrace it. By all means make yourself heard elsewhere, there's nothing anyone can do here for all your protestations.

It's like the internet, they'll be winners and losers, time waits for no man. The world is as it is, not as you would like it to be. A harsh lesson, but it's something we all have to cope with, the very best of luck to all.

 

[ComUtoR]

A very unfair accusation. The digital railway is coming, the digital transport revolution has started, there's nothing anyone can do about it, the tech is out of the bag. For reasons of cost, capacity, performance, energy it's all change, embrace it. By all means make yourself heard elsewhere, there's nothing anyone can do here for all your protestations.

What do you mean by a "digital railway" ?

What "digital" technology is available to allow a wheelchair passenger free access to the railway from getting through the barriers, onto the platform, change to their desired platform, board the train, alight at their required stop, exit their chosen station ?

At some point they need another human.

 

[highdyke]

What do you mean by a "digital railway" ?

What "digital" technology is available to allow a wheelchair passenger free access to the railway from getting through the barriers, onto the platform, change to their desired platform, board the train, alight at their required stop, exit their chosen station ?

At some point they need another human.

Agree, but roles will get redefined, speedysticks needs to talk to his MP, disabled groups, etc. Everyone sympathises, but it's a given things wlll change over time, there are solutions but it's not in anyone's gift here. Guards, platform staff, signallers, and drivers roles always have changed. There was a lot of protests when two men were taken off the footplate, a hang over from steam days, it changed, in the end. I support two people on a train, read again I support two people on a train for the disabled, revenue, serving passengers etc. With new digital technology, traditional train protection methods via 19th century methods are over. We've got better stuff now, it willl get better still.

Look I can see the Chiltern line, on my mobile phone, anywhere in the world.

I can see Aircraft, Shipping, Water Supply data, Real time wind, Earth data, Power data, Water levels in rivers, Old maps, New maps, Foreign railways.

There is new tech for doors,

and so on. If anyone seriously thinks we should running the railways as we do now in 20 years they are nuts.

 

[GadgetMan]

What do you mean by a "digital railway" ?

What "digital" technology is available to allow a wheelchair passenger free access to the railway from getting through the barriers, onto the platform, change to their desired platform, board the train, alight at their required stop, exit their chosen station ?

At some point they need another human.

Clearly the Disabled also need to modernise and digitalise. The Disabled are living in victorian times, being born with the same old disabilities people used to have 100s of years ago. They're stuck in their old ways moving around in 'analogue' wheelchairs....:cry:

 

[the sniper]

With new digital technology, traditional train protection methods via 19th century methods are over.

Funny that they're still in the rule book then and show absolutely no sign of being removed...

 

[Agent_c]

Agree, but roles will get redefined, speedysticks needs to talk to his MP, disabled groups, etc. Everyone sympathises, but it's a given things wlll change over time, there are solutions but it's not in anyone's gift here. Guards, platform staff, signallers, and drivers roles always have changed. There was a lot of protests when two men were taken off the footplate, a hang over from steam days, it changed, in the end. I support two people on a train, read again I support two people on a train for the disabled, revenue, serving passengers etc. With new digital technology, traditional train protection methods via 19th century methods are over. We've got better stuff now, it willl get better still.

On what basis would you say the current equipment is better than the mark 1 eyeball?

 

[infobleep]

Agree, but roles will get redefined, speedysticks needs to talk to his MP, disabled groups, etc. Everyone sympathises, but it's a given things wlll change over time, there are solutions but it's not in anyone's gift here. Guards, platform staff, signallers, and drivers roles always have changed. There was a lot of protests when two men were taken off the footplate, a hang over from steam days, it changed, in the end. I support two people on a train, read again I support two people on a train for the disabled, revenue, serving passengers etc. With new digital technology, traditional train protection methods via 19th century methods are over. We've got better stuff now, it willl get better still.

Look I can see the Chiltern line, on my mobile phone, anywhere in the world.

I can see Aircraft, Shipping, Water Supply data, Real time wind, Earth data, Power data, Water levels in rivers, Old maps, New maps, Foreign railways.

There is new tech for doors,

and so on. If anyone seriously thinks we should running the railways as we do now in 20 years they are nuts.

If all these new safety things are so good then the government needs to throw millions at it overnight so that it can be brought into use but they won't do that. Sorry not millions but billions.

Therefore existing not such good tech will be used and people just hope nothing bad happens.

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[Antman]

What do you mean by a "digital railway" ?

What "digital" technology is available to allow a wheelchair passenger free access to the railway from getting through the barriers, onto the platform, change to their desired platform, board the train, alight at their required stop, exit their chosen station ?

At some point they need another human.

And in my experience most wheelchair users are accomplished by another human being.

DDA legislation is never going to solve every potential problem.

 

[infobleep]

And in my experience most wheelchair users are accomplished by another human being.

DDA legislation is never going to solve every potential problem.

If that is the casw then may be a solution is to provide disabled careers with access to ramps and other equipment so that they can get the disabled person off if needs be.

Not sure how safe that would be but that's a minor point that obviously technology can resolve.

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[SPADTrap]

Funny that they're still in the rule book then and show absolutely no sign of being removed...

A little knowledge is dangerous for some? Opinion based on misinformation, I was involved in assistance protection yesterday!