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Pensioner against feet on seats

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Tetchytyke

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Also, could you please point out exactly where it was said that the kids mocked the old man, or said "You can't touch me"? All I've seen was that they said no when he first asked them to put their feet down. That doesn't warrant being assaulted, does it?

It's in the MEN report http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...s/picture-man-armlock-train-northern-11656983:

One student, who was sat behind the boys, said the man, who was believed to be in his 70s, told them to put their feet down and they refused.

“They were being quite cocky,” he said.

Other reports too suggest that this was the case.

She told the M.E.N: “Kids were badly behaved and no parents but only about 8 to 10yrs - 3 boys. Man acted like US cop. Kid crying.”

As for all this "violent assault" wibble, all he did was hold them in an uncomfortable position for a few seconds. It's not like he nutted them in the face is it?

As for the wibble about "deprived vulnerable children", I can safely say that the worst behaviour I've ever seen on public transport has been from the little darlings at Bradford Grammar School. I've never seen a group of over-privileged, self-entitled, deeply unpleasant people as those.
 
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Sprinter153

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I think that is an interesting point - what would the response be if it were a 16 year old assaulting a weak/frail old man?

I suspect it would be a polar opposite to the reaction of some posters here.
The general consensus seems to be 'respect your elders, even when they're deserving of absolutely no respect in return'.

Respect should be earned, not age-dependent. And demanding respect through physical assault is probably the fastest way to lose it.
 

shyanthony

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I am ashamed of the comments in this thread.
It is NEVER under any circumstances for an adult to lay their hands on a child.

I work with children and there is nothing better than walking away from the situation.
"Mocking" didn't happen either. They replied with a correct answer.
They weren't being aggressive. Unlike the older man.

The best situation would have been for the old man to speak to the guard and ask for them to have a word, nonetheless, by looks of it on here, many of you would have done something similar.

IMO: He should feel the full wack of the law.
 

Tetchytyke

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I work with children and there is nothing better than walking away from the situation.

Really? In every situation? Even when the child is acting in a deeply unpleasant and antisocial manner?

No wonder we have Generation Snowflake who don't quite understand that actions have consequences.

"Mocking" didn't happen either. They replied with a correct answer.
They weren't being aggressive. Unlike the older man.

The eyewitnesses say it did. Were you there? (I wasn't, but will take the eyewitness reports at face value).
 

Bromley boy

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But the nightclub bouncer does owe a duty of care. He must eject said patron from the nightclub in such a manner so as to not induce his head to come into repeated contact with the fire escape door, steps and then sadly with the size 11 boot of the bouncer once he reaches the bottom of said steps. Damn those terrible human rights!

I might also suggest they have a duty towards vulnerable people within thier care - should someone so drunk or on drugs that they can not protect themselves be simply turfed out? Night club owners have been held “vicariously liable” for the actions of thier door staff in the past.

It is legal to eject someone from private property using "reasonable force" - beating them to a pulp would seem to exceed that, but the question is whether there any "duty of care" owed once that person has been removed.

I suppose in practical terms, we would (rightly) never want to put rail staff in the position of having to use this "reasonable force" themselves, which is why it will always be left to BTP to remove passengers if they refuse to leave of their own accord.
 

Flamingo

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To notion that people cannot be ejected at unmanned stations seems ridiculous (and very unfair on on-train staff).

There is a simple reason - they might decide to do something bloody stupid like start walking along the railway track in the direction of home, and then cause delay other trains while bits of them are picked up off the surrounding countryside.
 

tsr

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As somebody who, amongst many many other things, has to get people of all ages (and actually, in the case of "feet on the seats" and reactions to it, it really is something which affects all age groups) to behave less antisocially on the railway and has had this delightful task to do for several years, I wonder if I could comment...

I do not in any way condone violence by anybody, nor even justifiable (whatever that could/would be, if it exists) physical force by the public, against somebody behaving antisocially on the railway in any way. But "feet on the seats" is not simply mildly irritating behaviour, as has previously been pointed out.

Aside from being a potential Byelaws breach, there is no way for a passenger or even most train crew to know the in-depth detail of when train seats are cleaned, and allowing somebody to simply add undue levels of dirt from their shoes to the seat for an indefinite time period is inconsiderate to everybody - spreading an unnecessary further risk of disease which is already heightened by being on public transport in the first place, and does not need further encouragement. This issue is also capable of reducing seating on busy lines, in turn, causing minor crowd control problems; it may also lead to intimidation of other passengers who would like a seat but don't feel able to ask; and so on. It also adds problems under what we call the "broken windows theory" (different names available), in which I am a strong believer. This states that the more littering, poor behaviour and small amounts of graffiti, for example, the higher the risk of behavioural problems spreading into more severe issues. I spend a tremendous amount of effort making sure my bit of the railway is a welcoming one, which is as free as possible from this sort of thing, and I can tell you it works; but it only works if you have zero tolerance for it springing up again.

Part of the problem is that some staff and over-enthusiastic members of the public have no idea of how to implement a "zero-tolerance" policy correctly. In my personal opinion, the older gentleman whose restraining actions are partially the subject of this thread has mistakenly believed that "zero-tolerance" means that violence is justified; it is not. Had this gentleman decided to report this to the guard, the guard had not been able to deal with the issue, and the BTP had become involved, I would consider this far more appropriate; zero-tolerance obviously means showing very visibly that you will not tolerate it, but uncontrolled scenarios where the culprits are restrained does not mean the railway is effectively showing it won't tolerate this behaviour anyway. It simply becomes a visceral, small-scale battle between parts of society.

As it so happens, in the specific case of people putting feet on seats, I rarely have a problem getting them to take them off; with the right tone of voice and an appropriate explanation if need be, most people will realise very readily that they need to show some consideration. In fact, there are a number of train journeys every week where my only face-to-face interaction with passengers is to ask them to take their feet of the seats - but it's remarkable how few show any resentment, and indeed some people thank you when they realise the error of their ways, and that you have shown leniency just by warning them politely! However, feet on the seats is also symptomatic of people who are drunk and disorderly, fare-dodging and "not caring about it", trespassing and many other things with which I can anecdotally associate it over the last few years. By asking, and getting a response of one sort or another, you can sometimes uncover a multitude of issues, and the behaviour of these kids makes me suspicious, if all that is reported is true.

Most young people are just like everybody else in that they will remove their feet when asked; they are also just like everybody else when I say that if they don't, it usually indicates further antisocial or illegal behaviour which heightens my professional responsibility to indicate zero-tolerance of the issues. I would also encourage the public to exercise zero-tolerance but not by violence, instead by reporting this to the closest employee of a railway authority (TOC/BTP). If people do not remove their feet when asked, it is harder to gauge the problem when it is a member of the public asking; but at best it is indicative of ingrained thoughtlessness and selfishness, and at worst a regular disregard for safety or responsibilities such as paying for a ticket. This is what I typically find from my actual front-line experience, and I have to say it is especially worrying amongst those of a fairly young age and at the start of some sort of independence. So a lesson does need to be taught, but it should just be mentally awkward, rather than physically painful; a war between individuals is not going to do anything, but impression of a proper railway culture is better. In other words, it's likely that if these kids were being this disrespectful and awkward, even to a member of the public with little authority, it is possibly symptomatic of a greater issue; zero-tolerance IS necessary; violence is not, but somebody with the correct authority needs to give a reprimand and if need to seek backup from those able to detain the children until they can be dealt with as far as the law allows. This is far better than an attempt at detention for no real gain.
 
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Bromley boy

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That is an interesting one, and I'll accept my previous analogy was probably not a great one!

Although is this more about the terms of the clubs licence being looked at rather than actual breach of a duty of care to the girl who was attacked? It is regrettable she was in such an intoxicated state that she was vulnerable, but she could have got smashed at home on vodka bought at sainsburys and had the same thing happen and we wouldn't be blaming sainsburys for the attack. The blame should lie with her attackers and no one else.

I suppose nightclubs/licensed premises can the distinguished from the railway in that they are serving the alcohol to their clients and making them drunk in the first place.
 
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It is legal to eject someone from private property using "reasonable force" - beating them to a pulp would seem to exceed that, but the question is whether there any "duty of care" owed once that person has been removed.

That question has already been answered by headshot119 on the previous page.
 

greaterwest

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Really? In every situation? Even when the child is acting in a deeply unpleasant and antisocial manner?

He had his feet on the seats; he wasn't blasting out heavy metal music or swearing at the top of his voice. Hardly "deeply unpleasant and antisocial", they weren't doing any harm. Nothing justified the pensioner's behaviour.

Quite frankly, I am astounded by some of the posts in this thread, especially those congratulating the old man.
 

Wolfie

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As somebody who, amongst many many other things, has to get people of all ages (and actually, in the case of "feet on the seats" and reactions to it, it really is something which affects all age groups) to behave less antisocially on the railway and has had this delightful task to do for several years, I wonder if I could comment...

I do not in any way condone violence by anybody, nor even justifiable (whatever that could/would be, if it exists) physical force by the public, against somebody behaving antisocially on the railway in any way. But "feet on the seats" is not simply mildly irritating behaviour, as has previously been pointed out.

Aside from being a potential Byelaws breach, there is no way for a passenger or even most train crew to know the in-depth detail of when train seats are cleaned, and allowing somebody to simply add undue levels of dirt from their shoes to the seat for an indefinite time period is inconsiderate to everybody - spreading an unnecessary further risk of disease which is already heightened by being on public transport in the first place, and does not need further encouragement. This issue is also capable of reducing seating on busy lines, in turn, causing minor crowd control problems; it may also lead to intimidation of other passengers who would like a seat but don't feel able to ask; and so on. It also adds problems under what we call the "broken windows theory" (different names available), in which I am a strong believer. This states that the more littering, poor behaviour and small amounts of graffiti, for example, the higher the risk of behavioural problems spreading into more severe issues. I spend a tremendous amount of effort making sure my bit of the railway is a welcoming one, which is as free as possible from this sort of thing, and I can tell you it works; but it only works if you have zero tolerance for it springing up again.

Part of the problem is that some staff and over-enthusiastic members of the public have no idea of how to implement a "zero-tolerance" policy correctly. In my personal opinion, the older gentleman whose restraining actions are partially the subject of this thread has mistakenly believed that "zero-tolerance" means that violence is justified; it is not. Had this gentleman decided to report this to the guard, the guard had not been able to deal with the issue, and the BTP had become involved, I would consider this far more appropriate; zero-tolerance obviously means showing very visibly that you will not tolerate it, but uncontrolled scenarios where the culprits are restrained does not mean the railway is effectively showing it won't tolerate this behaviour anyway. It simply becomes a visceral, small-scale battle between parts of society.

As it so happens, in the specific case of people putting feet on seats, I rarely have a problem getting them to take them off; with the right tone of voice and an appropriate explanation if need be, most people will realise very readily that they need to show some consideration. In fact, there are a number of train journeys every week where my only face-to-face interaction with passengers is to ask them to take their feet of the seats - but it's remarkable how few show any resentment, and indeed some people thank you when they realise the error of their ways, and that you have shown leniency just by warning them politely! However, feet on the seats is also symptomatic of people who are drunk and disorderly, fare-dodging and "not caring about it", trespassing and many other things with which I can anecdotally associate it over the last few years. By asking, and getting a response of one sort or another, you can sometimes uncover a multitude of issues, and the behaviour of these kids makes me suspicious, if all that is reported is true.

Most young people are just like everybody else in that they will remove their feet when asked; they are also just like everybody else when I say that if they don't, it usually indicates further antisocial or illegal behaviour which heightens my professional responsibility to indicate zero-tolerance of the issues. I would also encourage the public to exercise zero-tolerance but not by violence, instead by reporting this to the closest employee of a railway authority (TOC/BTP). If people do not remove their feet when asked, it is harder to gauge the problem when it is a member of the public asking; but at best it is indicative of ingrained thoughtlessness and selfishness, and at worst a regular disregard for safety or responsibilities such as paying for a ticket. This is what I typically find from my actual front-line experience, and I have to say it is especially worrying amongst those of a fairly young age and at the start of some sort of independence. So a lesson does need to be taught, but it should just be mentally awkward, rather than physically painful; a war between individuals is not going to do anything, but impression of a proper railway culture is better. In other words, it's likely that if these kids were being this disrespectful and awkward, even to a member of the public with little authority, it is possibly symptomatic of a greater issue; zero-tolerance IS necessary; violence is not, but somebody with the correct authority needs to give a reprimand and if need to seek backup from those able to detain the children until they can be dealt with as far as the law allows. This is far better than an attempt at detention for no real gain.

Thank you for sharing a balanced, thoughtful, incisive and considered answer, unlike all of the knee-jerk stuff (in both directions) which came before....

Speaking to a colleague who has over 20 years control and restraint training and experience, he said if he'd have seen that the old guy would be finding himself pinned and restrained. The move he was using is highly likely to cause significant injury and possibly permanent disability. Applying his bodyweight to the child on a softer surface like the seat could have also led to asphixia issues

I am not defending the actions of the pensioner, which are clearly disproprotionate whatever provocation there may have been. However, unless said colleague was working and in a role where use of physical force was authorised, he would himself then be guilty of an assault and wide open to suffering litigation.

The welfare of a Child is paramount and trumps that of any other member of society(Certainly not a uncivilized one such as this man).
I and any other adult would be within theirs to protect that Kids welfare at the detriment of the Pensioners health, if need be, as he is the instigator of the violence.
I hardly think the welfare of a seat is more important do you?

my bold

Says who? If you assaulted the pensioner that action could cost you thousands in compensation payments and you would deserve that as you resorting to violence makes you no better than he is.. who the hell appointed you to be judge and jury? Intervening yes, calling the police yes, physical assault no...
 
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Tetchytyke

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He had his feet on the seats; he wasn't blasting out heavy metal music or swearing at the top of his voice. Hardly "deeply unpleasant and antisocial", they weren't doing any harm.

I'd say feet on the seats was worse than a bit of colourful language, to be completely honest. It's disgusting behaviour, not least because someone else then has to sit on a seat which is smeared in muck and grime (and worse) from the soles of their shoes.

tsr said:
As it so happens, in the specific case of people putting feet on seats, I rarely have a problem getting them to take them off; with the right tone of voice and an appropriate explanation if need be, most people will realise very readily that they need to show some consideration. In fact, there are a number of train journeys every week where my only face-to-face interaction with passengers is to ask them to take their feet of the seats - but it's remarkable how few show any resentment, and indeed some people thank you when they realise the error of their ways, and that you have shown leniency just by warning them politely! However, feet on the seats is also symptomatic of people who are drunk and disorderly, fare-dodging and "not caring about it", trespassing and many other things with which I can anecdotally associate it over the last few years. By asking, and getting a response of one sort or another, you can sometimes uncover a multitude of issues, and the behaviour of these kids makes me suspicious, if all that is reported is true.

I agree with your post. I don't condone his behaviour but I'm also not distressed by it. I agree about the "broken windows" theory; people who get away with low-level antisocial behaviour will usually push the boundaries further and further until they are challenged.

I don't condone his behaviour, not least because when he's caught some do-gooder will nail him for having the temerity to cause a little scrote vulnerable young boy to cry in shock become traumatised. But I can't help but be pleased that someone chose to stand up to them, rather than hiding behind a book or their headphones (which, if I'm honest, is what I'd probably do, because it really isn't worth getting arrested for).

One thing that always gets my goat, though, is the number of people who will gladly and willingly take their feet off seats when asked by a guard...only to shove them straight back up there five seconds later when the guard has gone. That's the attitude that these kids were displaying- that their "human right" to lounge around trumps everyone else's right not have to sit on a seat covered in crap off the street. The fact they agreed to move their feet off the seat knows they're doing wrong, they just don't give a toss.
 
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GarethJohn

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After teaching those that do wrong how to deal with ant-social behaviour. This ''Gentleman'' and the Children are most probably local to the line. In around 10 years they will be 18-21 years old possibly still hanging around with each other. Which could lead to them bumping into each other again. One outcome is that this ''Bully'' may have to live with the consequences of his actions as they become stronger while he becomes frailer.
In the World of this Pensioner and those in support of him they will identify with the rule of ''The Bully'' getting his comeuppance or at least living with the consequences of what may happen .
 

ATW Alex 101

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From what I can gather they were told to get their feet off the seats and they didn't so they were forcibly removed. I'm not sure I see what the problem is.

armlock.jpg


Your problem right here. How you fail to see this as a problem is beyond me. :roll::lol:
 
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londonbridge

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As someone who works in the nightclub industry I can tell you that the above statement is wrong.

Local police and the licensing authority require us to demonstrate policies showing that we have a duty of care to anyone who we eject from the premises; this includes children 14+ as we host live music events permitting that age group.

On the one and only occasion when I was ejected from a club after drinking too much I remember someone saying 'talk to me'. I recall saying 'I'm okay, just need some air', and moving towards an open window, and someone saying 'that's okay, come and talk to me outside in the fresh air'. I then remember sitting outside for a good twenty minutes/half an hour but don't recall anyone coming to check if I was okay. I eventually got up and walked round to a cab office, asking for a cab and being told there was a wait. Sat down for a bit then asked to use the toilet/bathroom, came back out and sat in the waiting area. Next thing I remember is the controller saying 'come on son, time to go home, we won't have a cab for you tonight i'm afraid', and then sitting outside the office for a while before getting up and walking three miles home. So staff have a duty of care to anyone ejected, but no one form the club checked on me whilst I was sitting outside and nor did anyone from the cab office.
 

GarethJohn

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I am not defending the actions of the pensioner, which are clearly disproprotionate whatever provocation there may have been. However, unless said colleague was working and in a role where use of physical force was authorised, he would himself then be guilty of an assault and wide open to suffering litigation.



my bold

Says who? If you assaulted the pensioner that action could cost you thousands in compensation payments and you would dserve that as you resorting to vilence makes you no better than he is.. who the hell appointed you to be judge and jury? Intervening yes, calling the police yes, physcial assault no...

I do!! A child's welfare is more important than anyone else's in society which is why there are rules that protect them specifically.
I would be well within my rights to use force to protect someone from the perpetrator of the violent action, if need bee in a violent manner. I would put my liberty at stake for the well being of a Child. This OAP is lucky that there wasn't someone with similar views in the carriage of the train.
 

cjmillsnun

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If you chuck them off at a staffed station, this means:

1) They become someone else's problem,
2) How do they get home? Who organises this? What if they have no money?
In regards to number 2 as long as it isn't the last service and as long as it isn't an advance ticket, then it is just a break of journey and the original ticket remains valid. That said I wouldn't expect minors to be thrown off a train unless police were involved.
 

Class377

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I'd say feet on the seats was worse than a bit of colourful language, to be completely honest. It's disgusting behaviour, not least because someone else then has to sit on a seat which is smeared in muck and grime (and worse) from the soles of their shoes.

To be honest, if you get so traumatised and upset from someone having their feet up on a seat (or even just find it so disgusting), I'm not sure public transport is for you.

Go and invest in a car, where you can get around safe in the knowledge that you don't have to interact with the general public, some of whom are always going to be a little bit annoying or unpleasant. If you decide to use public transport, you have to expect some people to annoy you!
 

Flamingo

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Which members of staff said this?

None did. Paulo is just hoping that if he keeps repeating it (five posts so far) that some people will believe him and jump on his anti-staff bandwagon.

However, it appears that he is allowed post blatent lies without any consequence...
 
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cjmillsnun

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For pitys sake how melodramatic rubbish is going to be posted on here?

It would appear that having refused to remove feet from seat they were removed forcibly, just like a police officer would have done.

Doh......a police officer would have done the same thing!

A police officer that did that to a child would be an ex police officer very quickly and would possibly be facing court action
 

greaterwest

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I'd say feet on the seats was worse than a bit of colourful language, to be completely honest. It's disgusting behaviour, not least because someone else then has to sit on a seat which is smeared in muck and grime (and worse) from the soles of their shoes.

Much worse things have probably been on that seat before these kids put their feet up.

If this is the way you feel, public transport is not for you.
 

cjmillsnun

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If a child, or adult for that matter, refused to comply then force would have been used, unfortunately asking people nicely doesn't always work.

No it would not for feet on seats. Not under any circumstances.
 

Tetchytyke

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If you decide to use public transport, you have to expect some people to annoy you!

Loud music or swearing is annoying. Old men whistling tunelessly is very annoying.

Having a seat covered in dog**** because some special snowflake can't keep their feet on the floor is not. It is disgusting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A police officer that did that to a child would be an ex police officer very quickly and would possibly be facing court action

Would they heck as like.
 
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Tetchytyke

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If this is the way you feel, public transport is not for you.

And it is precisely this attitude that means these special snowflakes believe they're untouchable.

You see the same bleating about how "unfair" it all is when Merseyrail have a clampdown on it and prosecute a few people for it.
 

TheKnightWho

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Loud music or swearing is annoying. Old men whistling tunelessly is very annoying.

Having a seat covered in dog**** because some special snowflake can't keep their feet on the floor is not. It is disgusting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would they heck as like.

Why are you trying to justify violent behaviour?

a) It's a violent overreaction that was totally disproportionate, even if you believe that everyone has their shoes smeared in dog**** (which you know as well as I do isn't the case for almost everyone). You seem desperate to make out like feet on seats is so much worse than most other small things, but we all know that this requires some serious stretching. I'm not convinced this is really why you're so worked up about it, given you opened with your story about your father the policeman, which leads me onto...

b) It's questionable in how effective it will be. Children respect people who give them respect - this is the most important rule that anyone in charge of them has to learn, and they have to learn it quickly. Physical assault by a much larger individual doesn't teach respect: it breeds resentment. Especially when not done by an authority figure, but by a random member of the public (and no, being an adult does not automatically make you an authority, and with good reason). So given this,

c) It seems to come from a place of a revenge fantasy, and not from any rhyme or reason. Satisfying the violent whims of old men to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside is not the way we should be running a society.
 
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