Pensioner against feet on seats

[Groningen]

Source: Daily Mail

Shocking moment pensioner on train 'puts young boy in an arm lock after the child refused to take his feet off the seats'

Group of children were travelling on a train to Manchester unaccompanied
A pensioner approached them and asked them to take their feet off seats
But the children refused and the elderly man put one child in an arm lock
British Transport Police say they are investigating incident on the train

This is the shocking moment a pensioner appears to put a young boy in an armlock after a disagreement on a train after the child refused to take his feet off the seats. British Transport Police confirmed they were investigating claims that the elderly man assaulted the young boy on a Northern Rail service from Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria on Friday. Images which are widely being shared on social media, appear to show the child being forced over a seat, while the man holds the boy's arm behind his back.

Images have been shared on social media appearing to show the pensioner putting the young boy in an arm lock on the train from Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria.The boy had been travelling with another two youngsters aged between eight and 11, with the group joining the service at Blackburn. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. One student, who was sat behind the boys, said the man, who was believed to be in his 70s, told them to put their feet down and they refused. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. 'They were being quite cocky,' he said. The 17-year-old added: 'He threatened them with a clip around the ear and then went and sat back down. 'The children then put their feet back up and wouldn't take them down. 'The guy then went over again and tried to take their feet down.' It is at this point, when the train was near Bolton that the man is alleged to have put one of the boys into an arm lock.

After the image of the armlock was shared on social media, one Twitter user @Szy-Sefton said they were in the same carriage. She told said: 'Kids were badly behaved and no parents but only about 8 to 10yrs - 3 boys. Man acted like US cop. Kid crying.' She added that a woman who had been sat near the boys on the train repeatedly told the man to stop. She added that the boys then stayed with the woman until they reached the gate and were met by Northern Rail staff. A spokesman for Northern Rail said: 'We are currently investigating this incident.'Because of this, it wouldn't be appropriate for us to comment at this time.' British Transport Police also confirmed it is investigating the incident.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Before any of the wags on this website start putting two and two together and making five, let me assure all and sundry that whilst I am the same age of the elderly man, visits Clitheroe quite often and cannot abide anyone putting their feet on seat....I was NOT the person in question...

 

[Jamesb1974]

Silly man. He'll get what he deserves. Maybe he thought he was acting in the best interests of (er.....not sure who actually), but it would appear he crossed the line when he put a child in an armlock.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3705954/Shocking-moment-pensioner-train-puts-young-boy-arm-lock-child-refused-feet-seats.html

"Oh Genie of the lamp, grant my wish and open me a can of worms"..

 

[bramling]

Shocking moment pensioner on train 'puts young boy in an arm lock after the child refused to take his feet off the seats'

Group of children were travelling on a train to Manchester unaccompanied
A pensioner approached them and asked them to take their feet off seats
But the children refused and the elderly man put one child in an arm lock
British Transport Police say they are investigating incident on the train

This is the shocking moment a pensioner appears to put a young boy in an armlock after a disagreement on a train after the child refused to take his feet off the seats. British Transport Police confirmed they were investigating claims that the elderly man assaulted the young boy on a Northern Rail service from Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria on Friday. Images which are widely being shared on social media, appear to show the child being forced over a seat, while the man holds the boy's arm behind his back.

Images have been shared on social media appearing to show the pensioner putting the young boy in an arm lock on the train from Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria.The boy had been travelling with another two youngsters aged between eight and 11, with the group joining the service at Blackburn. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. One student, who was sat behind the boys, said the man, who was believed to be in his 70s, told them to put their feet down and they refused. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. It is understood that the children had been sitting with their feet on the seats, and were approached by the man who asked them to put them down. 'They were being quite cocky,' he said. The 17-year-old added: 'He threatened them with a clip around the ear and then went and sat back down. 'The children then put their feet back up and wouldn't take them down. 'The guy then went over again and tried to take their feet down.' It is at this point, when the train was near Bolton that the man is alleged to have put one of the boys into an arm lock.

After the image of the armlock was shared on social media, one Twitter user @Szy-Sefton said they were in the same carriage. She told said: 'Kids were badly behaved and no parents but only about 8 to 10yrs - 3 boys. Man acted like US cop. Kid crying.' She added that a woman who had been sat near the boys on the train repeatedly told the man to stop. She added that the boys then stayed with the woman until they reached the gate and were met by Northern Rail staff. A spokesman for Northern Rail said: 'We are currently investigating this incident.'Because of this, it wouldn't be appropriate for us to comment at this time.' British Transport Police also confirmed it is investigating the incident.

Source: Daily Mail

Hmm.

Ideally the best resolution would have been for the guard to eject them off the train. But of course, because of their age, this is not really feasible.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but equally I'm not comfortable with the idea that kids can knowingly behave badly and ignore rules without there being anything that can be realistically done.

BTP wouldn't normally go out of their way to attend such a situation either, even if it had been reported.

Best resolution is stern words all round but no further action I'd say. If the matter is followed up then in an ideal world the byelaw offence committed by the kids should also be pursued, a fine paid by the parents would be good to see but unfeasible.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Hmm.

Ideally the best resolution would have been for the guard to eject them off the train. But of course, because of their age, this is not really feasible.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but equally I'm not comfortable with the idea that kids can knowingly behave badly and ignore rules without there being anything that can be realistically done.

BTP wouldn't normally go out of their way to attend such a situation either, even if it had been reported.

Best resolution is stern words all round but no further action I'd say. If the matter is followed up then in an ideal world the byelaw offence committed by the kids should also be pursued, a fine paid by the parents would be good to see but unfeasible.

I just posted the direct link to the story. Notice the size of the child's arm compared to the man's hand, the apparent tightness of grip and the way the hand is being forced backward in a pain compliance position. Regardless of whether the kid had his feet on the seats, this isn't acceptable and I know who I'd be taking to task had I been there.

 

[Harbornite]

Before any of the wags on this website start putting two and two together and making five, let me assure all and sundry that whilst I am the same age of the elderly man, visits Clitheroe quite often and cannot abide anyone putting their feet on seat....I was NOT the person in question...

Apparently, the boy in question mocked the elderly gentleman by accusing him of being a resident of East Cheshire and not Cheshire East...!

 

[Haig paxton]

Quite right, these urchins needed to be taught a lesson and hopefully the 'victim' will think twice next time he disrespects his elders. I'd give the gent a pat on the back. Maybe he should have given him the clip round the ear first before the armlock. Anyway, they are clearly vermin. What parents let children that age run riot?

 

[GatwickDepress]

There's no justification for this whatsoever. I don't know what was going through this idiot's mind at the time but you don't assault children over something as petty as feet on seats even if they are being extremely irritating.

The children shouldn't have their feet on the seats but equally so it isn't up to a member of the public to enforce railway byelaws. We have guards for a reason - the man should have contacted the guard if he were so afeared for the integrity of the seating.

That in an "ideal world" the man would get away with putting a child's arm in a painful looking lock and the boys' parents would be charged with a byelaw offence regarding feet on seats is laughably bizarre. I'm glad I don't live in Bramling's ideal world.

Apparently, the boy in question mocked the elderly gentleman by accusing him of being a resident of East Cheshire and not Cheshire East...!

In that case, I take back everything I said. Entirely well deserved!

Quite right, these urchins needed to be taught a lesson and hopefully the 'victim' will think twice next time he disrespects his elders. I'd give the gent a pat on the back. Maybe he should have given him the clip round the ear first before the armlock. Anyway, they are clearly vermin. What parents let children that age run riot?

You sound like a barrel of laughs. Vermin?! VERMIN?! Oh wow, I wonder if Pointless Letters allows forum screenshots too...

 

[roversfan2001]

They're the type of children who will grow up to be chavs who won't find get anywhere in life or be successful; I think that's a good enough punishment for them.

 

[Haig paxton]

You sound like a barrel of laughs. Vermin?! VERMIN?! Oh wow, I wonder if Pointless Letters allows forum screenshots too...

I suggest you read the comments left by the readers of the Daily Mail, a paper I have never bought incidentally as I loathe and detest Tory propaganda. However, most of the comments left are actually PRAISING the man for his actions. If you read the story you'll see there was of course a bleeding heart busybody female who thought he went too far. These odious creatures will no doubt turn to a life of crime before long, never leaving their dreadful council estate.

 

[Mugby]

Interesting to note that in the comments after the press article, some sixteen and a half thousand people gave a thumbs up to the person who spoke in praise of the 'old' man.

 

[Harbornite]

The kids in question sound like little sh*ts and could do with a telling off, but to use physical action against them is just wrong.

 

[the sniper]

The children shouldn't have their feet on the seats but equally so it isn't up to a member of the public to enforce railway byelaws. We have guards for a reason - the man should have contacted the guard if he were so afeared for the integrity of the seating.

If this is the reason we have Guards than the grade really is f*****!

Unless the Guard wanted to take a risk, there's little they could have done other than have the kids take the p*** out of them too... If everyone else plays by the rules they're virtually untouchable, and they know it.

Hopefully these kids will learn a lesson from what happened, if they're not buoyed by becoming the victims, but it'll be the old boy that'll actually come to see that actions have consequences.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I suggest you read the comments left by the readers of the Daily Mail, a paper I have never bought incidentally as I loathe and detest Tory propaganda. However, most of the comments left are actually PRAISING the man for his actions. If you read the story you'll see there was of course a bleeding heart busybody female who thought he went too far. These odious creatures will no doubt turn to a life of crime before long, never leaving their dreadful council estate.

Wow. I can say with no shame that you absolutely disgust me. Odious creatures? Life of crime? Dreadful council estate? These are children we are talking about. Young children.

Crawl back into your little hole of hatred.

 

[mrmartin]

To the people that call 8 year old children vermin for this "crime", what do you think the punishment should he? Torture? Stoning? Firing squad?

 

[roversfan2001]

Everyone starts somewhere. If these children break laws now, who knows what they can do in the future?

And age 8 to 11 is not really "young", at that age they know what they are doing. Call me cynical but these kids knew what they were doing and knew no one could touch them and not have the book thrown at them.

Sent from my SM-J100H using Tapatalk

 

[trash80]

Well it all went wrong when they stopped corporal punishment in schools et cetera

 

[AlterEgo]

They're the type of children who will grow up to be chavs who won't find get anywhere in life or be successful; I think that's a good enough punishment for them.

The ultimate punishment for them would be to end up posting on a train enthusiasts' forum about how rotten little kids are.

 

[miami]

Well it all went wrong when they stopped corporal punishment in schools et cetera

Don't forget national service!

 

[miami]

I think everyone agrees the children were wrong.

However when an adult inflicts physical violence on a child (and such Adult isn't even the child's parent - or even the child's teacher, or Mr Goon) I would hope nobody would back the view that this monster needs to be shipped off to Switzerland asap.

This wasn't an elderly old gent being set up on by a pack of rabid hyenas. This wasn't self defence. This wasn't even a street brawl between evenly matched thugs.

Perhaps we should dock his state pension, free bus pass, and senior railcard, and spend the money on on-train BTP to enforce rules he thinks are important (while ignoring those he doesn't think are important, like assault)

Man acted like US cop

Now that's an indictment and a half!

 

[bramling]

There's no justification for this whatsoever. I don't know what was going through this idiot's mind at the time but you don't assault children over something as petty as feet on seats even if they are being extremely irritating.

The children shouldn't have their feet on the seats but equally so it isn't up to a member of the public to enforce railway byelaws. We have guards for a reason - the man should have contacted the guard if he were so afeared for the integrity of the seating.

That in an "ideal world" the man would get away with putting a child's arm in a painful looking lock and the boys' parents would be charged with a byelaw offence regarding feet on seats is laughably bizarre. I'm glad I don't live in Bramling's ideal world.


In that case, I take back everything I said. Entirely well deserved!


You sound like a barrel of laughs. Vermin?! VERMIN?! Oh wow, I wonder if Pointless Letters allows forum screenshots too...

So what do you suggest should happen?

In reality, the guard can't really do anything if the kids choose to ignore him, apart from calling BTP - who will probably not turn up, and it is likely to delay the service which is not desirable.

The problem is that the kids evidently knew they could basically do whatever they wanted and not much would happen.

At least where I am every station is staffed so there's always the option to get people off the train, but even then they just end up on a later train, and any delays accrued whilst the situation is dealt with would be frowned upon.

 

[Polarbear]

I don't for one minute condone the physical actions taken by the older chap in this case, but I do have some empathy with him. You feel powerless so there is a tendency to over-react - which is what we have here.

I'm a person who thinks that putting feet on seats is a disgusting & disrespectful habit, practiced by quite a few people (not only kids). Like most people, I consider that I was brought up to respect others and I find it hugely frustrating to see people get away with this sort of behaviour time after time.

Personally, I can't see why rail (and bus) companies don't take a much stronger line against this sort of behaviour. For me, the answer would be for TOC's to have roving inspectors, who as well as checking tickets etc, have the authority to eject people from trains for such behaviour. Word would soon get around the wider community that you run the risk of getting chucked off a train or bus for "feet on seats" or playing loud music (another bugbear). Merseyrail do quite a good job in this respect, though even here, there are instances of anti-social behaviour still.

The trouble of course with that is that TOC's don't want to have any bad press, and also, it does put front line staff in the firing line, but unless someone takes responsibility for policing the actions of these inconsiderate people (and it's a minority, albeit a growing one), then the problems will just get worse as time goes on.

 

[DarloRich]

regardless of the right and wrongs of feet on the seat or behaviour of kids for anyone to suggest that assaulting a child is a good thing to do must have completely lost thier moral compass!

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally, I can't see why rail (and bus) companies don't take a much stronger line against this sort of behaviour. For me, the answer would be for TOC's to have roving inspectors, who as well as checking tickets etc, have the authority to eject people from trains for such behaviour. Word would soon get around the wider community that you run the risk of getting chucked off a train or bus for "feet on seats" or playing loud music (another bugbear). Merseyrail do quite a good job in this respect, though even here, there are instances of anti-social behaviour still.

This is unworkable because:

1) You can't physically eject people from trains - why bother getting physical?

2) You can't turf kids off before their destination. Hopefully the reason why is obvious.

 

[LowLevel]

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't personally considered throwing some lippy little sods headlong through the train doors but you can't, it's illegal for a parent to discipline their child in such a manner let alone a stranger. Fine the parents perhaps for failing to ensure their kids behave and respect other people's property given that if they were adults they could have been prosecuted and they've chosen to let relatively young ones roam about on public transport unmonitored.

Of course if you want to get your own back on BTP for the years of 'drunks are fit to travel mate, he can sort of walk OK, see ya' and so on I suppose you could phone up and tell them you suspect they're runaways and they have to come out, but I couldn't possibly condone that!

 

[Ianno87]

The irony is that the old guy who performed the assault will not appreciate that the kids in question are now going to believe that, when they get older, it will be acceptable for *them* to use physical violence on others in order to get their way, in the same way that he did to them. Self-defeating, if you ask me.

Jumped up, disrespectful kids with feet on seats deserve stern words and (if necessary) ejection from the train by the guard. Not an assault by a random member of the public, however.

 

[me123]

Not his business to get involved, this is an open-and-shut case of assault. There is a reason that we have legitimate law enforcement entities that are regulated, and do not rely on vigilante justice. The child shouldn't have had his feet on the seat, but this "man's" crime of assaulting a minor (approximately 8-10 years old) is far worse, and I hope he gets the prison time that he deserves for this.

I don't know what's more depressing, the fact that this happened, or the fact that over 25000 people seem to support his actions if the Heil's comment section is anything to go by.

 

[al78]

The irony is that the old guy who performed the assault will not appreciate that the kids in question are now going to believe that, when they get older, it will be acceptable for *them* to use physical violence on others in order to get their way, in the same way that he did to them. Self-defeating, if you ask me.

Jumped up, disrespectful kids with feet on seats deserve stern words and (if necessary) ejection from the train by the guard. Not an assault by a random member of the public, however.

That is the argument against corporal punishment, and one I have sympathy with.

There is a clear problem here, firstly if you discipline the kids physically (as they will not respond to anything verbal), it is teaching them that physical force is the way to resolve conflict. On the other hand, if you do nothing it teaches them that they can break rules as they feel like without any comeback. Which do you prefer?

I think one possible reason the man took the action he did is that he is of the generation where kids did get a clip round the ear and it did stop them misbehaving. Some older people do still appear to apply philosophies that may have been ok in the 1950's-60's, and haven't accepted that the world has changed considerably in the last half century.

I do have some sympathy with the mans actions (that is not the same as supporting it before anyone goes off on a rant), and also feel that retaliation should not be judged in the same way as provocation. I doubt many people, for example, would claim Britain was as bad as Germany in WWII because we bombed German cities killing millions of civilians.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To those who claim such youngsters have a supposed knowledge of the law, I ask how do youngsters fare when brought before Magistrates Courts, as I have heard of cases where youngsters being sent away to remedial establishments many miles from where they live?

Is it really the case that these youngsters are really untouchables in all that they do and that there is no legal duress. As far as I am aware, unless a change to the law has recently been made, the age of criminal responsibility in both England and Wales is 10 years of age. Children under that age cannot be arrested, but there are said to be other types of punishments that can be administered to children under 10 years of age who break the law.

 

[Sprinter153]

The irony is that the old guy who performed the assault will not appreciate that the kids in question are now going to believe that, when they get older, it will be acceptable for *them* to use physical violence on others in order to get their way, in the same way that he did to them. Self-defeating, if you ask me.

Jumped up, disrespectful kids with feet on seats deserve stern words and (if necessary) ejection from the train by the guard. Not an assault by a random member of the public, however.

We can never, ever remove unaccompanied minors from the train. The guard has duty of care to some degree and if he/she turfed them off at whatever location and something happened, questions would be asked (and have been).

I would, however, be inviting this 'gentleman' to leave the train at the first available opportunity with BTP assistance. Assaulting anyone, particularly a minor, is entirely unacceptable, whatever supposed 'wrong' is being righted.

As an aside, I'm just as likely to find people of that generation with feet on the seats as younger people, and I've been verbally and physically abused more by 'respectable older gentlemen' than young people.