Pensioner against feet on seats

[Class377]

Loud music or swearing is annoying. Old men whistling tunelessly is very annoying.

Having a seat covered in dog**** because some special snowflake can't keep their feet on the floor is not. It is disgusting.

Could you please link me to where it was shown that these two children had their shoes covered in dog poo? I can't see it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Would they heck as like.

My sister and brother in law are PCs and assure me that would be gross misconduct.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm reminded of the opening chapter of To Kill A Mockingbird, where the discription of Atticus Finch's first case, with clients who (unsuccessfully) "insisted that the-son-of-a-bitch-had-it-coming was a good enough defence for anybody".

The kid may have needed discipline. In the circumstances, a random stranger was not the person to apply it, and certainly not in that manner.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You seem desperate to make out like feet on seats is so much worse than most other small things, but we all know that this requires some serious stretching.

A bit of loud pop music is irritating.

I believe that putting feet on seats is much more destructive, much closer to etching or graffiti than making a bit of a racket. YMMV.

Children respect people who give them respect - this is the most important rule that anyone in charge of them has to learn, and they have to learn it quickly. Physical assault by a much larger individual doesn't teach respect: it breeds resentment.

In more prolonged interactions I agree. Teachers who command respect have more control than teachers who try to rule with an iron fist. It's the same with any leadership position, both with children and adults.

However this situation is different. The old guy asked them, nicely and repeatedly, to take their feet off the seats. They took the **** out of him: as the eyewitnesses say, they were "being cocky" and refusing.

I don't see where respect comes into it. Asking nicely didn't work. Walking away would be better for the blood pressure, but would also teach them that they can get away with things if they're a smartarse. The way the man reacted wasn't the way I would have, but I'll tell you something: the kid who was bawling his little eyes out took his feet off the seats, didn't he? And I bet he'll think twice before he's a cocky little scrote to the next old man.

ETA: It's not the way I would have reacted, and I can't condone it: life's too short, more than anything else. But all this talk of "violent assault" and "locking him up" for "child cruelty" is absolutely ridiculous. The old guy didn't hit them and didn't leave a mark. Maybe the police should have a quiet word with him, right before they send the kid's parent an £80 Penalty Fake for breaking the railway byelaws.

There are prison wardens in Australia accused of stripping children in their care naked and teargassing them: now that is child cruelty.

 

[Class377]

I don't see where respect comes into it. Asking nicely didn't work. Walking away would be better for the blood pressure, but would also teach them that they can get away with things if they're a smartarse. The way the man reacted wasn't the way I would have, but I'll tell you something: the kid who was bawling his little eyes out took his feet off the seats, didn't he? And I bet he'll think twice before he's a cocky little scrote to the next old man.

Yes, and the kid now also thinks that violence is the right way to solve a problem.

If that kid now starts assaulting people that don't do what he wants, will you blame the old man for teaching him that lesson?

You may think it's yob culture, but this sort of thing is what creates it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

A bit of loud pop music is irritating.

I believe that putting feet on seats is much more destructive, much closer to etching or graffiti than making a bit of a racket. YMMV.

The vast majority of people do not have shoes that are likely to give you a disease. Stop being ridiculous.

In more prolonged interactions I agree. Teachers who command respect have more control than teachers who try to rule with an iron fist. It's the same with any leadership position, both with children and adults.

However this situation is different. The old guy asked them, nicely and repeatedly, to take their feet off the seats. They took the **** out of him: as the eyewitnesses say, they were "being cocky" and refusing.

I don't see where respect comes into it. Asking nicely didn't work. Walking away would be better for the blood pressure, but would also teach them that they can get away with things if they're a smartarse. The way the man reacted wasn't the way I would have, but I'll tell you something: the kid who was bawling his little eyes out took his feet off the seats, didn't he? And I bet he'll think twice before he's a cocky little scrote to the next old man.

And behaving like the school bully achieves what, exactly? Instead of thinking they can get away with stuff, they're now much more likely to actively do things to annoy people because thanks to this old man they'll be more resentful of other passengers - particularly grumpy old men. Mission very much not accomplished.

 

[Deepgreen]

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

 

[GarethJohn]

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

Yes and you start behaving like the old man. Who would have lived through a time when Kids were seen and not heard regardless of what was happening to them at the time.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

Given they've been consistently improving, I can only think you're living in fantasy land.

Don't let that stop the revenge fantasies though Just don't make up rubbish to try to justify it in the eyes of everyone else.

 

[DarloRich]

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

which could be applied to all involved in this scenario!

I am sure we can all understand why the old bloke did what he did. I know I have been tempted to give some mouthy little so and so a good slap. However, the idea of loosing my job, liberty and gaining a criminal record ( for physically abusing a child) does tend to give you a moment of pause!

Do two wrongs make a right? I doubt it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The vast majority of people do not have shoes that are likely to give you a disease. Stop being ridiculous.

If you think about where, and through what, the average person has walked in a day, I think you would be very surprised. But it isn't just about cleanliness, shoes on seats damages the seats themselves: that's why the back seat on buses is always so much more worn than the rest of them.

Loud music or swearing, on the other hand, is just an irritation to anyone who's forgotten to pack their headphones.

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

And this is pretty much where I'm coming from.

I don't think this was the best way to address the behaviour, but not through concerns about the child's welfare, more than this (when they find him) will cause a heap more stress to the guy than feet on a seat did.

The kid may have needed discipline. In the circumstances, a random stranger was not the person to apply it, and certainly not in that manner.

Again, I agree, but nobody else was going to apply it. When people are seen to be breaking rules with impunity, it is not a surprise when people start to take things into their own hands.

 

[Geezertronic]

However this situation is different. The old guy asked them, nicely and repeatedly, to take their feet off the seats.

Where does it say he asked nicely? Genuine question...

 

[cjmillsnun]

Society today allows poor behaviour but nearly always fails to address it. With no consequences for those who knowingly behave badly, it can only continue to worsen.

I don't disagree however it is for those in authority or those responsible for the children (their parents/guardians) to administer the consequences in a manner that is reasonable and proportionate.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given they've been consistently improving, I can only think you're living in fantasy land.

It's hard to get concrete stats about antisocial behaviour as so much of it is both anecdotal and subjective.

But the crime rate on TfL transport is 5% higher in Q1 2015/16 than Q1 in 2014/15:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/crime-and-antisocial-behaviour-web-bulletin-q11516.pdf

 

[Geezertronic]

I only ask because the old man could have told the little "snowflakes" to "get yer bleeding feet off the seat, that's for sitting on not resting yer grubby feet on" and they gave him some back. His reaction of course was excessive and unwarranted, and no doubt if it was a 20 stone man sitting there with feet on seats I very much doubt he would have said a peep let alone try the arm-lock

I do agree that there is a large minority of "snowflakes" who make a point of extracting the urine especially to look good in front of their mates. Having worked in a college in the past, I found words a much more powerful method of dealing with little "snowflakes" than anything else (detention for example), although someone will probably come along and say that embarrassing kids is not the way to do it either

 

[bramling]

I am ashamed of the comments in this thread.
It is NEVER under any circumstances for an adult to lay their hands on a child.

I work with children and there is nothing better than walking away from the situation.
"Mocking" didn't happen either. They replied with a correct answer.
They weren't being aggressive. Unlike the older man.

The best situation would have been for the old man to speak to the guard and ask for them to have a word, nonetheless, by looks of it on here, many of you would have done something similar.

IMO: He should feel the full wack of the law.

There's a lot of comments in this thread which may be well intentioned, but none of this changes the fact that we don't really know what happened nor what led up to the photo we have seen.

 

[Harbornite]

although someone will probably come along and say that embarrassing kids is not the way to do it either

Embarrassing them is far better than the alternative! Kids should learn to fear and respect authority, but not through violence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree however it is for those in authority or those responsible for the children (their parents/guardians) to administer the consequences in a manner that is reasonable and proportionate.

Perhaps this would be best managed by making parents responsible for the actions of their children.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I only ask because the old man could have told the little "snowflakes" to "get yer bleeding feet off the seat, that's for sitting on not resting yer grubby feet on" and they gave him some back.

It was implied in the article that he was polite, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he was rude about it. Rudeness does get replied to with rudeness.

I do agree that there is a large minority of "snowflakes" who make a point of extracting the urine especially to look good in front of their mates. Having worked in a college in the past, I found words a much more powerful method of dealing with little "snowflakes" than anything else (detention for example)

With longer interactions I totally agree. It's certainly how I raise my daughter.

 

[bb21]

Just a reminder to please stay off personal attacks, which spoils an otherwise fine debate.

When anyone resorts to it, it only shows that the argument has been lost.

I won't be asking again.

Also just because someone has a different view does not automatically mean they are trolling. Before anyone asks, no, I cannot ban people from posting simply because they have a left-leaning/right-leaning/stupid/inconsiderate view that differs, unless it breaks forum rules and the laws of the land.

 

[Jamesb1974]

A police officer that did that to a child would be an ex police officer very quickly and would possibly be facing court action

Would they heck as like.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2215608/PC-Stephen-Hudson-spared-jail-CCTV-captures-using-pain-restraint-boy-15.html

Erm, yes they would be an ex officer very quickly. I knew this guy, cracking fella. Lost it all when he lost his temper.

 

[Geezertronic]

Also just because someone has a different view does not automatically mean they are trolling. Before anyone asks, no, I cannot ban people from posting simply because they have a left-leaning/right-leaning/stupid/inconsiderate view that differs, unless it breaks forum rules and the laws of the land.

You could always try putting someone in an arm-lock

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's hard to get concrete stats about antisocial behaviour as so much of it is both anecdotal and subjective.

But the crime rate on TfL transport is 5% higher in Q1 2015/16 than Q1 in 2014/15:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/crime-and-antisocial-behaviour-web-bulletin-q11516.pdf

One year of a slight increase in London does not disprove the general trend. That's statistics 101.

 

[bb21]

You could always try putting someone in an arm-lock

Don't tempt me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Also just because someone has a different view does not automatically mean they are trolling.

..nor does having a username which is a (poor) pun on a popular 1970s dessert confectionery item
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Erm, yes they would be an ex officer very quickly. I knew this guy, cracking fella. Lost it all when he lost his temper.

Picking him up by the arm will be the main difference there. That's really quite dangerous.

He was also unlucky: without going too off-topic, look at, among others, this: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ex-police-treatment-11-year-old-disabled-girl

Although comments by the boy's mother prove the point I've been making:

The boy’s mother said: ‘That man should never have been called a police officer. He abused my son at the end of the day.’

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One year of a slight increase in London does not disprove the general trend. That's statistics 101.

It's been several years of slight increases; Q2 was also higher.

The general trend is also pretty constant:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...landandwales/2015-10-15#anti-social-behaviour

 

[Geezertronic]

He was also unlucky: without going too off-topic, look at, among others, this: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ex-police-treatment-11-year-old-disabled-girl

I don't think we can class that one in the same ballpark as reading the link above, the girl has a medical condition that is "a rare neurological disorder similar to autism that can cause sudden outbursts of anger". That's a world away from the case of the Copper who lifted the scrote up in an arm-lock which is itself a world away from a vigilante pensioner

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, would this even have made the news if all he had done was forcibly removed the child's legs from the seat, repeatedly if necessary?

(Not that I've got the guts to do that...)

 

[Philip C]

This is my one and only contribution to this remarkable thread.

Back in the good old days I travelled many miles in compartments (second and first) on the Southern and felt much more comfortable with my feet on the seat opposite. However I always took my shoes off first.

Might I commend to those who wish to get a positive result that they politely suggest to those with feet on seats "that they would find it more comfortable and hygienic if they took their shoes off, PLEASE?" I always find the use of 'please', with or without irony, keeps discussion civilised. It is also important, having made your request/point to walk away and give space for those receiving the request to respond without losing face; this may also require selective deafness on your part!

Ensuring that some of those seated in the vicinity are 'on your side' is helpful - build your constituency. NEVER lose control or make 'threats' that you won't or can't enact. Try not to pick 'fights' that you can't win - grinning and bearing it when your carriage is invaded by football supporters shouting and boozing is probably wise! Be prepared to lose on some interventions whilst keeping your cool!

If you do get a result then saying "thanks", and meaning it when you get off, does no harm.

I hope this helps.

 

[ComUtoR]

But there is a significant minority who believe that they can do what they want- drink, smoke, swear, verbally abuse people- with impunity. Nobody can touch them or make them behave.

How do you believe kids learn to behave ?

The old guy has now reinforced violent behaviour and reinforced a do what I tell you attitude.

 

[Antman]

My sister and brother in law are PCs and assure me that would be gross misconduct.

I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but what exactly are the police supposed to do if somebody refuses to comply? Shrug their shoulders and walk away? Well obviously not, they use reasonable force.