Petition launched to demand re-opening of Dumfries-Stranraer railway line

[AndyW33]

Look at the Facebook page re the 1856 surveyed route, which would serve Gatehouse at the town's north-eastern periphery.
Re bus services.
Dalbeattie to CD by bus 18 minutes , train 6 minutes.
Dalbeattie to Dumfries by bus 24 minutes, train 15 minutes.
CD to Dumfries by bus 30 minutes, train 22 minutes
Gatehoues to Dumfries by bus 1 hour, train 35 minutes.

Oh dear. You criticise posters who are rail professionals for telling you the high costs of new alignments, then you propose a new alignment yourself based on an 1856 survey. What Facebook page by the way? Why was the railway built using a different alignment from the 1856 one in the first place?

And your estimates for the bus journey times from Dalbeattie are obviously centre to centre, and for rail station to station. But the bus runs right through Dalbeattie from one side to the other, so quite a few people don't get on in the centre but at stops nearer their homes. How close to the centre would your reopened station be?
We know where Dumfries railway station is of course, and while it is certainly well within the town, it is like many stations off-centre. Buses from Castle Douglas and/or Dalbeattie have already passed through much of the town before they reach the station. So quite a few of the bus passengers have already got off. For people who want to start their journey in Dalbeattie other than opposite the station, or to go to anywhere in Dumfries other than outside the station, you need to add walking time or the time for using a connecting bus. Why do you think the passengers deserted the train for the bus originally, back in the 1930s to 1960s?
Any calculation of benefits from the proposed reopening made by an official body is obliged to take this into account. As a general rule the longer the journey the more people are willing to walk or connect at either end. But these journeys from Dalbeattie are shorter in time than many routine bus journeys.

Finally - a note of cynicism. As others have said, the Borders got their railway back as a political ploy within the Scottish parliament. As long as the majority of Scots vote Nationalist (or if they decide to return to Labour), and Dumfries and Galloway vote Conservative, there's no political advantage to anyone in Edinburgh in giving the region a railway.

 

[me123]

Parking in Dumfries is abysmal, if you think there is no demand for travel to Dumfries , come and have a look for yourself. And people here use roads because there is no alternative.

Traffic is not that bad in Dumfries (certainly no worse than lots of other towns with multiple railway lines), and if parking is a problem perhaps the solution is to build more parking spaces. It's much cheaper and easier than building a rail line.

The railway line, if built, would have a low frequency (think 1tp2h at the very best, more likely 1tp3h or 1tp4h). It is delusional to think that these low frequencies are going to encourage huge shift onto rail in a rural and remote area. Most people in D&G will always need to have cars, unlike in the Central Belt where a denser population allows for a better public transport infrastructure.

 

[najaB]

. Most people in D&G will always need to have cars, unlike in the Central Belt where a denser population allows for a better public transport infrastructure.

Hence my suggestion earlier to buy everyone a car and pay for a driver - cheaper than this railway and provides ongoing employment too.


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Altfish]

Another selling point is the location of the new Dumfries hospital which is close to the line's alignment at Cargenbridge and would certainly justify a station.

 

[JohnB57]

Another selling point is the location of the new Dumfries hospital which is close to the line's alignment at Cargenbridge and would certainly justify a station.

This is a genuine question so mods please forgive the momentary digression.

I've seen this mentioned on here before. Would a railway station near a hospital really be much use? It seems to me that the catchment area and demographic are not compatible with mass rail use, especially in an area such as Dumfries.

Most hospitals have massive car-parks for a good reason...

 

[Altnabreac]

This is a genuine question so mods please forgive the momentary digression.

I've seen this mentioned on here before. Would a railway station near a hospital really be much use? It seems to me that the catchment area and demographic are not compatible with mass rail use, especially in an area such as Dumfries.

Most hospitals have massive car-parks for a good reason...

Railway stations for hospitals can do reasonable business for staff commutes if they have a good service and also do some business with outpatients and visitors but it will always be a fairly small minority of people using rail to access a hospital outside of major cities.

It does depend on them being linked to other towns of a reasonable size though...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Look at the gradient profile of the line.

I'm still unconvinced you know what you're talking about.

Beattock, which is a major headache for diesel hauled freight, has a gradient ranging from 1 in 74 to 1 in 88. That's why we prefer it's used by electric locomotives on freight. I'm sure there's plenty of drivers around here who can tell you exactly how slow you'll reach the summit with a Class 66 diesel locomotive at the helm (hint - it can be single digit mph), and how they'll be having to reduce power on their electric locomotives to stop them exceeding the linespeed with the same length and weight of train.

Your route has 6 miles of 1 in 80 between Palnure and Gatehouse of Fleet, 1 in 73 for 3 miles outside Dumfries and plenty of miles or two miles stretches where it's 1 in 75 up and 1 in 75 down the other side of a peak. The 1 in 85 incline just out of Stranraer isn't going to be good news for freight either.

Those are the sort of inclines which will catch out a diesel locomotive on occasion, with them coming to a halt and needing banked, autumn and leaf fall season in particular will be an issue, obviously the same issues affect an electric locomotive, but if it's slipping doing 50mph, it will have enough momentum to get out of the most trouble, a diesel doing 15mph will be coming to a halt.

It's a not infrequent occurrence on things like the Highland Main Line with the Tesco/Russell boxes - loaded with anything upto 20 swapbody containers - has had difficulty in the past reaching Inverness. The sleeper has run into trouble on the WHL heading to Fort William with the four coach sleeper.

The reality is you'll need to electrify the route if you're remotely serious about getting significant quantities of freight off the road network and providing competitive journey times. You would also really want to use the regenerative braking capabilities of a modern AC locomotive given the gradients involved, and given adhesion issues, I'd suggest something like the Class 92.

Electrification will be expensive for the reasons I've outlined, particularly the feeding arrangements at the Stranraer end of the route.

The business case for the route would need significant freight traffic - the Class 92 is a 5MW locomotive, the Class 88 is 4MW, running, whilst you won't need the most powerful feeding arrangements, it will still need substantial feeding arrangements. You've also got to electrify the route from Dumfries in both directions - Kilmarnock would be the limit of electrification by the time this scheme was at the build stage.

Kilmarnock to Gretna Junction is ~270 single track kilometres (stk) of electrification, Dumfries to Stranraer I'd cost at around 100 stk but would need to know the precise length of track on the route to be electrified, so double track, passing loops, sidings, bay platforms etc.

 

[6Gman]

Another selling point is the location of the new Dumfries hospital which is close to the line's alignment at Cargenbridge and would certainly justify a station.

Who do we expect to use a hospital station?

Staff? Visitors? Patients?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm still unconvinced you know what you're talking about.

Your route has 6 miles of 1 in 80 between Palnure and Gatehouse of Fleet, 1 in 73 for 3 miles outside Dumfries and plenty of miles or two miles stretches where it's 1 in 75 up and 1 in 75 down the other side of a peak. The 1 in 85 incline just out of Stranraer isn't going to be good news for freight either.

Those are the sort of inclines which will catch out a diesel locomotive on occasion, with them coming to a halt and needing banked, autumn and leaf fall season in particular will be an issue, obviously the same issues affect an electric locomotive, but if it's slipping doing 50mph, it will have enough momentum to get out of the most trouble, a diesel doing 15mph will be coming to a halt.

I was going to ask about gradients. Fact.

I had a suspicion they were a bit sharp. Opinion.

However, since the idea of this becoming a major freight route seems to me to be absurd it doesn't really matter.

In the same way, whether the construction cost would be £1bn or half that figure, the construction cost would be wholly beyond any realistic benefit, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Altnabreac]

Who do we expect to use a hospital station?

Staff? Visitors? Patients?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was going to ask about gradients. Fact.

I had a suspicion they were a bit sharp. Opinion.

However, since the idea of this becoming a major freight route seems to me to be absurd it doesn't really matter.

In the same way, whether the construction cost would be £1bn or half that figure, the construction cost would be wholly beyond any realistic benefit, it doesn't really matter.

Yes effectively with a dispute over construction costs of £500m - £1bn we're arguing over whether the BCR will be 0.2 or 01.

 

[The Ham]

4,500 isn't a 'village.

4,400 is a village as is 4,900 (well at least near where I live), there is even one near where I work with a population of about 11,000. This is because the size of the population of a settlement doesn't always accurately describe what type of settlement it is (nor does having a Parish or Town Council, the latter can be opted for by any Parish Council).

Although a town can have a population of 1000, villages can also have populations of several thousand.

I know of two settlements of broadly similar size (circa 8,000) that are referred to as different things (village and town) the town gets upset by being called a village as it was given a town charter whilst the other gets upset about being called a town when most of the residents see it as a village, when in reality it is a town. The reason the "village" wants to remain as such is possibly to do with keeping the same status as the other nearby settlements which are all villages and not having the same status as the big nearby settlements where most people go to go shopping and access most services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes effectively with a dispute over construction costs of £500m - £1bn we're arguing over whether the BCR will be 0.2 or 01.

It wouldn't be that good! I'd expect it to be negative.

 

[Altfish]

This is a genuine question so mods please forgive the momentary digression.

I've seen this mentioned on here before. Would a railway station near a hospital really be much use? It seems to me that the catchment area and demographic are not compatible with mass rail use, especially in an area such as Dumfries.

Most hospitals have massive car-parks for a good reason...

Altnabraec answered this but I must add the other consideration; that is hospital staff, many low paid.

 

[JohnB57]

Altnabraec answered this but I must add the other consideration; that is hospital staff, many low paid.

A very limited market for such a service in a place like Dumfries, as Altnabreac has already suggested.

 

[Altnabreac]

If you want to build a station for a hospital the best bet is to try and capture park and ride traffic and serve commuters as well.

Stranraer patients get referrals to both the Crichton in Dumfries and cross health board to Ayrshire and Arran for some specialties.

So a station for Ayr Hospital might have some Stranraer benefits while also acting as a Park and Ride railhead for south and east Ayr. Ideally accommpanied by electrification to Girvan as well.

A more realistic scheme that would improve healthcare access for Stranraer folk.

 

[6Gman]

If you want to build a station for a hospital the best bet is to try and capture park and ride traffic and serve commuters as well.

Stranraer patients get referrals to both the Crichton in Dumfries and cross health board to Ayrshire and Arran for some specialties.

So a station for Ayr Hospital might have some Stranraer benefits while also acting as a Park and Ride railhead for south and east Ayr. Ideally accommpanied by electrification to Girvan as well.

A more realistic scheme that would improve healthcare access for Stranraer folk.

And if you gave the residents a choice between £500M to £1Bn capital plus an unspecified annual subsidy going toward :-

A. Reopening the Stranraer - Dumfries railway, or
B. Investing in health care.

I wonder which they would prefer?

 

[HSTEd]

Say the IRish Sea crossing is built between Stranraer and Northern Ireland and is a rail only crossing (Rather than an oft proposed combined rail road bridge or tunnel thing).

Do you build a motorway to the M74 and put the terminal in Stranraer or do you only build the railway and put the terminal on the M6/M74?

 

[JohnB57]

Say the IRish Sea crossing is built between Stranraer and Northern Ireland and is a rail only crossing (Rather than an oft proposed combined rail road bridge or tunnel thing).

Do you build a motorway to the M74 and put the terminal in Stranraer or do you only build the railway and put the terminal on the M6/M74?

The Irish Sea crossing would naturally need full compatibility with the planned Rapid-Transit Tube to Mars and the onward Trans-Galactic Phase-Modulated High Beamwidth Pan Universal Matter Transporter (HS4). All to be funded from oil revenue of course.

 

[Mordac]

The Irish Sea crossing would naturally need full compatibility with the planned Rapid-Transit Tube to Mars and the onward Trans-Galactic Phase-Modulated High Beamwidth Pan Universal Matter Transporter (HS4). All to be funded from oil revenue of course.

Post of the week.

 

[HSTEd]

The Irish Sea crossing would naturally need full compatibility with the planned Rapid-Transit Tube to Mars and the onward Trans-Galactic Phase-Modulated High Beamwidth Pan Universal Matter Transporter (HS4). All to be funded from oil revenue of course.

And maybe if we are lucky we might get HS3 - no guarantees of course.

But in all seriousness - the case for an Irish Sea crossing is not that awful.
It has serious political capital benefits in the current fractured climate and it is not the worst project I have seen seriously proposed economically.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...demand-re-opening-8497201#MdfvVI23ShSm5Gut.97

If anyone would like to sign the petition, here's the link:

http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/reopen-the-dumfries-stranraer-railway

How many people have actually signed this petition.?

When was the last debate on the matter in the Scottish government and what was the outcome?

 

[me123]

I've seen this mentioned on here before. Would a railway station near a hospital really be much use? It seems to me that the catchment area and demographic are not compatible with mass rail use, especially in an area such as Dumfries.

Most hospitals have massive car-parks for a good reason...

Railway stations can serve hospitals very well (Gartnaval being a great example in Glasgow), although Dumfries is an example in which I wouldn't be rushing to build one unless it coincidentally happened to pass right by (which it doesn't/won't).

Hospitals often have massive car parks - but they are generally very busy. There are lots of people who drive to hospitals, not just workers but also patients and visitors. Some people simply can't take public transport. Patients who are too unwell to manage on a bus. Workers who start/finish their shift before/after the public transport option becomes available. These people have little option but to drive. However, improving public transport access does help those who can use it and is a great way of trying to ease pressure in the hospital car parks.

DGRI is an exception in that it is very easy to find a parking space. The traffic in the immediate vicinity of the hospital is terrible, but hopefully the new hospital will help to ease the pressure somewhat. Let's hope that they build enough parking spaces to cope with demand.

 

[yorksrob]

Railway stations can serve hospitals very well (Gartnaval being a great example in Glasgow), although Dumfries is an example in which I wouldn't be rushing to build one unless it coincidentally happened to pass right by (which it doesn't/won't).

Hospitals often have massive car parks - but they are generally very busy. There are lots of people who drive to hospitals, not just workers but also patients and visitors. Some people simply can't take public transport. Patients who are too unwell to manage on a bus. Workers who start/finish their shift before/after the public transport option becomes available. These people have little option but to drive. However, improving public transport access does help those who can use it and is a great way of trying to ease pressure in the hospital car parks.

DGRI is an exception in that it is very easy to find a parking space. The traffic in the immediate vicinity of the hospital is terrible, but hopefully the new hospital will help to ease the pressure somewhat. Let's hope that they build enough parking spaces to cope with demand.

The old Bodmin Road - Padstow branch skirts round the big local hospital in Bodmin. I've no doubt that this would have been a good place for a new station, had the line remained a part of the national network.

 

[Sandy R]

Post of the week.

Good to see someone on here has a sense of humour

 

[Sandy R]

Railway stations can serve hospitals very well (Gartnaval being a great example in Glasgow), although Dumfries is an example in which I wouldn't be rushing to build one unless it coincidentally happened to pass right by (which it doesn't/won't).

Hospitals often have massive car parks - but they are generally very busy. There are lots of people who drive to hospitals, not just workers but also patients and visitors. Some people simply can't take public transport. Patients who are too unwell to manage on a bus. Workers who start/finish their shift before/after the public transport option becomes available. These people have little option but to drive. However, improving public transport access does help those who can use it and is a great way of trying to ease pressure in the hospital car parks.

DGRI is an exception in that it is very easy to find a parking space. The traffic in the immediate vicinity of the hospital is terrible, but hopefully the new hospital will help to ease the pressure somewhat. Let's hope that they build enough parking spaces to cope with demand.

Which it does.

 

[Sandy R]

How many people have actually signed this petition.?

When was the last debate on the matter in the Scottish government and what was the outcome?

1,280 in 12 1/2 days.
Running at over 100 per day.

 

[me123]

Which it does.

It runs close to your proposed line, which will have a huge price tag. I don't think that your line should be built. If it was to be built, I'd be supportive of a hospital/Dumfries Parkway station being built. However, I think that better options are available.

I think a bus rapid transit scheme would be better here - In addition to the 1000 spaces in the new hospital car park (a good number!), build a park and ride facility with plenty of free parking and regular bus links (once every ten minutes would only need three or four buses) to Dumfries Town Centre. That would be significantly cheaper, and I reckon would be of more benefit. The buses would link the town centre to the new hospital, as well as providing a park and ride facility into the town itself.

 

[Sandy R]

Oh dear. You criticise posters who are rail professionals for telling you the high costs of new alignments, then you propose a new alignment yourself based on an 1856 survey. What Facebook page by the way? Why was the railway built using a different alignment from the 1856 one in the first place?

And your estimates for the bus journey times from Dalbeattie are obviously centre to centre, and for rail station to station. But the bus runs right through Dalbeattie from one side to the other, so quite a few people don't get on in the centre but at stops nearer their homes. How close to the centre would your reopened station be?
We know where Dumfries railway station is of course, and while it is certainly well within the town, it is like many stations off-centre. Buses from Castle Douglas and/or Dalbeattie have already passed through much of the town before they reach the station. So quite a few of the bus passengers have already got off. For people who want to start their journey in Dalbeattie other than opposite the station, or to go to anywhere in Dumfries other than outside the station, you need to add walking time or the time for using a connecting bus. Why do you think the passengers deserted the train for the bus originally, back in the 1930s to 1960s?
Any calculation of benefits from the proposed reopening made by an official body is obliged to take this into account. As a general rule the longer the journey the more people are willing to walk or connect at either end. But these journeys from Dalbeattie are shorter in time than many routine bus journeys.

Finally - a note of cynicism. As others have said, the Borders got their railway back as a political ploy within the Scottish parliament. As long as the majority of Scots vote Nationalist (or if they decide to return to Labour), and Dumfries and Galloway vote Conservative, there's no political advantage to anyone in Edinburgh in giving the region a railway.

I didnt criticise them for the cost of new alignment, I criticised them for their exaggerated costs of building on the existing alignment.
The final route selection wouldnt be up to me, I'm just making people aware of a previous survey which would have shortened the route by 1 1/12 miles, avoided some of construction costs(eg Water of Fleet viaduct etc) and would have better served some of the intermediate population.
People didn't desert the train for the bus , they deserted it for cars because that's what a lot of people were doing in the 1960s. We live in different times now. Rail usage is rocketing, and not just in the overpopulated Southeast of England.
As for the Lab/LibDem political ploy, that's debatable. LibDems had already got into coalition with Lab in 1999.
Unfortunately the other bit is true, Galloway's propensity to vote Tory , and the 2-1 No vote here in 2014 have already severely damaged the cause for the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It runs close to your proposed line, which will have a huge price tag. I don't think that your line should be built. If it was to be built, I'd be supportive of a hospital/Dumfries Parkway station being built. However, I think that better options are available.

I think a bus rapid transit scheme would be better here - In addition to the 1000 spaces in the new hospital car park (a good number!), build a park and ride facility with plenty of free parking and regular bus links (once every ten minutes would only need three or four buses) to Dumfries Town Centre. That would be significantly cheaper, and I reckon would be of more benefit. The buses would link the town centre to the new hospital, as well as providing a park and ride facility into the town itself.

If you had any local knowledge, as I have, you'd know that there is already a plan for buses every 20 minutes to the new hospital. Check out SWESTRANS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
'although Dumfries is an example in which I wouldn't be rushing to build one unless it coincidentally happened to pass right by (which it doesn't/won't). '

Look at the map. The new hospital is being built RIGHT next to the old line !

 

[AlterEgo]

And maybe if we are lucky we might get HS3 - no guarantees of course.

But in all seriousness - the case for an Irish Sea crossing is not that awful.
It has serious political capital benefits in the current fractured climate and it is not the worst project I have seen seriously proposed economically.

In Irish Sea crossing isn't ever going to happen.

 

[Sandy R]

Traffic is not that bad in Dumfries (certainly no worse than lots of other towns with multiple railway lines), and if parking is a problem perhaps the solution is to build more parking spaces. It's much cheaper and easier than building a rail line.

The railway line, if built, would have a low frequency (think 1tp2h at the very best, more likely 1tp3h or 1tp4h). It is delusional to think that these low frequencies are going to encourage huge shift onto rail in a rural and remote area. Most people in D&G will always need to have cars, unlike in the Central Belt where a denser population allows for a better public transport infrastructure.

Nobody is going to build a new railway with 1tp4h frequency. That is delusional.

 

[me123]

If you had any local knowledge, as I have, you'd know that there is already a plan for buses every 20 minutes to the new hospital. Check out SWESTRANS

I do have some local knowledge, although you'll forgive me if I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of provisional bus routes in a town in which I don't currently live. I do not know of any plans for park and ride facilties near the hospital, but I think that is an ideal location.

Look at the map. The new hospital is being built RIGHT next to the old line !

There is no active railway line next to the hospital. I would be happy for a station to be built if there was an active railway line running nearby. It would be utterly foolish to build a line to a new hospital based on there being an old trackbed nearby. And I've already explained why I think a line to Stranraer is foolish.

Nobody is going to build a new railway with 1tp4h frequency. That is delusional.

My point exactly! It's delusional to think that anything greater than 1tp2h is warranted, and it's delusional to think that any such project will therefore be built.