Jeremy Corbyn's Traingate

[Harbornite]

It depends on your definition of 'ram-packed'. A few seats in a couple of coaches, with what seems to be plenty of people needing a seat would suggest that the train is full. Not full and standing, admittedly.

It was still misleading, Corblin inferred a total lack of seats.

 

[matt_world2004]

You don't see May pulling a stunt like Corbyn did....it's bad enough doing it but when you get caught own up...also Corbyn is claiming to be different and yet he is no different at all so that removes literally the only thing he has going for him.

No members of the previous conservative cabinet just travel without valid tickets.

 

[Harbornite]

And while we're in the blue corner. What about the £360m promised for hospitals if we left the EU?

Was she a big supporter of brexit? Don't blame her for the lies spouted by the brexiters that people somehow manged to fall for.

 

[EM2]

It was still misleading, Corblin inferred a total lack of seats.

Implied (you have inferred from his implication), but did not state.

 

[jayah]

In what way very very illegal? Could you point me to the legislation that's been broken.

And the answer, Data Protection Act, isn't good enough on its own.

The ICO guidance on DPA compliance for CCTV systems states that disclosure should be consistent with the purpose for establishing the system unless a law enforcement agency is requesting it.

For example it would be appropriate where a system was established to detect crime to disclose to a law enforcement agency but not in most cases release images on the internet.

I very much doubt political tittle tattle meets any test for releasing CCTV of a public figure to the media.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This thread appears to have had a new lease of life today with a veritable plethora of postings made.

 

[embers25]

It depends on your definition of 'ram-packed'. A few seats in a couple of coaches, with what seems to be plenty of people needing a seat would suggest that the train is full. Not full and standing, admittedly.

It wasn't a few seats based on the cctv there were enough free unreserved and reserved seats in those two carriages alone to give 1 totally empty carriage at least as far as York and so that is not a high load factor by any standard and any travel operator would want higher. I'm not saying often VTEC isn't crammed ot bursting I'm saying this train wasn't even "full" it was half full as far as York based on those two coaches in isolation.

 

[jon0844]

Regarding that thread, there's more votes in favour of renationalisation. Pity.

I think there will always be as people vote that way without thinking. When people stop to think, and listen, they invariably see that it isn't some utopia - or that DOR running a p**s easy franchise is a sign of how the whole railway could/would be (especially when we know DOR skimped on many things during its time).

That's the whole thing with Corbyn. He says a lot of things that his loyal fans lap up, and it rather reminds me of that South Park episode where all the hippies have a music festival and say how they're going to change the world.. and then do absolutely sod all.

 

[embers25]

The ICO guidance on DPA compliance for CCTV systems states that disclosure should be consistent with the purpose for establishing the system unless a law enforcement agency is requesting it.

For example it would be appropriate where a system was established to detect crime to disclose to a law enforcement agency but not in most cases release images on the internet.

I very much doubt political tittle tattle meets any test for releasing CCTV of a public figure to the media.

I'm no expert but all VTEC were doing were protecting their reputation from being further defamed by lying Corbyn and his team and whether thats a legally valid use of the CCTV I don't know but it seems reasonable.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'll just pop this here...

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/train-gate-vs-nhs-patient-safety-gate.html

 

[alastair]

Hapless member of "Team Corbyn" just on BBC News repeating mantra that "the train was rammed",then saying "maybe some seats were reserved with suitcases" and "that maybe there were children in the seats who couldnt be seen because of the seat in front". She knows "because she was there". :roll:

Sounds like they are getting a bit desperate!

 

[jayah]

I'm no expert but all VTEC were doing were protecting their reputation from being further defamed by lying Corbyn and his team and whether thats a legally valid use of the CCTV I don't know but it seems reasonable.

The law is the law. What feels reasonable doesn't come into it. VTEC could have challenged or rebutted the story without releasing CCTV or asked him privately to retract.

 

[EM2]

It wasn't a few seats based on the cctv there were enough free unreserved and reserved seats in those two carriages alone to give 1 totally empty carriage at least as far as York and so that is not a high load factor by any standard and any travel operator would want higher. I'm not saying often VTEC isn't crammed ot bursting I'm saying this train wasn't even "full" it was half full as far as York based on those two coaches in isolation.

What we can't see, amongst other things, are how many people in total need a seat, how many of those supposedly unoccupied seats are actually occupied (by children or adults of shorter stature) and how many of them have a coat or bag on them to denote that they are occupied while the passenger goes to the toilet, or buffet, or to put their luggage on a rack (for example).
You (and many others) have assumed that all of these seats are empty.

 

[embers25]

I'll just pop this here...

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/train-gate-vs-nhs-patient-safety-gate.html

Jeremy Hunt is a fool, but he is not running for PM, Corbyn is so needs to be held to a higher standard and two wrongs don't make a right. That's like saying a girl got raped today but 5 people got murdered so the rape doesn't matter....really....

 

[Haydn1971]

Jeremy Hunt is a fool, but he is not running for PM, Corbyn is so needs to be held to a higher standard and two wrongs don't make a right. That's like saying a girl got raped today but 5 people got murdered so the rape doesn't matter....really....

To be fair, neither is Corbyn, he's the leader of the opposition, with the entire media against him. Odds are never going to be in his favour.

 

[matt_world2004]

Except maybe as evidence in a defamation trial there is no legal justification in the release of CCTV evidence to protect oneself against lying
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Jeremy Hunt is a fool, but he is not running for PM, Corbyn is so needs to be held to a higher standard and two wrongs don't make a right. That's like saying a girl got raped today but 5 people got murdered so the rape doesn't matter....really....

Jeremy Hunt has more chance of becoming PM than corbyn currently though.

 

[crehld]

Except maybe as evidence in a defamation trial there is no legal justification in the release of CCTV evidence to protect oneself against lying

Cornyn lying and suggesting Virgin as a privately operated franchise were unable to provide enough seating when, in fact, seats were available was arguably defamatory.

 

[embers25]

What we can't see, amongst other things, are how many people in total need a seat, how many of those supposedly unoccupied seats are actually occupied (by children or adults of shorter stature) and how many of them have a coat or bag on them to denote that they are occupied while the passenger goes to the toilet, or buffet, or to put their luggage on a rack (for example).
You (and many others) have assumed that all of these seats are empty.

Even when he sits down at 1143 there were still plenty of seats spare in coach H alone.

 

[jayah]

Cornyn lying and suggesting Virgin as a privately operated franchise were unable to provide enough seating when, in fact, seats were available was arguably defamatory.

Challenge him to withdraw or sue him then.

Fail on DPA.
Fail on Privacy Policy.

 

[matt_world2004]

Cornyn lying and suggesting Virgin as a privately operated franchise were unable to provide enough seating when, in fact, seats were available was arguably defamatory.

Still there is no legal justfication for releasing cctv footage that is there to prevent crime and protect customer and staff safety.

 

[Darandio]

The law is the law. What feels reasonable doesn't come into it. VTEC could have challenged or rebutted the story without releasing CCTV or asked him privately to retract.

How do you know they didn't?

Exactly.

 

[matt_world2004]

How do you know they didn't?

Exactly.

"We are disappointed that Jeremy Corbyn could not find a seat on our service xxx route surveys have indicated that seat capacity for this route at this time of is always in excess of passenger demand, and there was no operational reasons to indicate that demand had signficantly increased for this particular trip, evidence from onboard staff and CCTV indicates there was no unusual loadings that would have effected Jeremy Corbyns ability to get a seat"

 

[iainbhx]

Still there is no legal justfication for releasing cctv footage that is there to prevent crime and protect customer and staff safety.

Are you a lawyer who specialises in DPA issues. This chap is, he disagrees with you.

 

[bnm]

The law is the law. What feels reasonable doesn't come into it. VTEC could have challenged or rebutted the story without releasing CCTV or asked him privately to retract.

Precisely. What law has been broken?

The Data Protection Act allows for the publication of data for journalistic reasons, freedom of expression, public interest.

 

[Dan27]

Still there is no legal justfication for releasing cctv footage that is there to prevent crime and protect customer and staff safety.

Do you not think any press releases like this do not go through internal legal vetting before being published?

 

[Darandio]

"We are disappointed that Jeremy Corbyn could not find a seat on our service xxx route surveys have indicated that seat capacity for this route at this time of is always in excess of passenger demand, and there was no operational reasons to indicate that demand had signficantly increased for this particular trip, evidence from onboard staff and CCTV indicates there was no unusual loadings that would have effected Jeremy Corbyns ability to get a seat"

Where does that suggest they hadn't privately asked him to retract? Which was my point.

 

[crehld]

Still there is no legal justfication for releasing cctv footage that is there to prevent crime and protect customer and staff safety.

Challenge him to withdraw or sue him then.

Fail on DPA.
Fail on Privacy Policy.

It would seem not...

Are you a lawyer who specialises in DPA issues. This chap is, he disagrees with you.

 

[yorksrob]

Being rather pedantic, wasn't this on a service which was (until fairly recently) in a semi nationalised state. During which time although a fair amount of money was paid to the government, very little was done to improve services. Whilst with no extra trains the private company has provided some extra services.

I admit that one reason that it probably didn't do much was because of a government project to replace the trains (about 12 years for IEP rather than about 4 years for GA fleet replacement).

If those are "good" examples of government run rail projects, then those who want a state run railway may have to be careful what they wish for.

(that isn't to say that privately owned run railways are better, you just need to look at Southern for a bad example of that, rather the grass may not be greener or your glasses may have a slight pink hue to them).

It's also on a service where almost all of the trains were designed and built by a publically owned company (and were state of the art at the time), so I'm not sure that your point holds water.

 

[BestWestern]

Do you not think any press releases like this do not go through internal legal vetting before being published?

Even had it been illegal - and it would seem, on balance, that it wasn't - I would imagine it would have been noted that a lawsuit would only serve to further publicise the matter, which might well have been worth it in return for a probably rather modest compensation payout or a slap on the wrist from the authorities.

A question though; if purchasing a rail ticket is entering into a contract, is the TOC breaking its publicised privacy policies a breach of that contract?

 

[yorksrob]

I know with the BBC all talent is required to travel standard class unless its written into their contract but most tickets are booked by production managers who just go onto thetrainline and pay whatever fare comes up and I reckon parliament is the same so there is a lot of waste and over expenditure in public sector travel.

I suspect that's true of a lot of big organisations whether private or public, particularly if you outsource booking train tickets.

My employer has recently changed to a system that enables individual employees to book their own tickets, so that you can get cheaper deals quite easily.