Jeremy Corbyn's Traingate

[Clarence Yard]

Do you not think any press releases like this do not go through internal legal vetting before being published?

Exactly and on train and station CCTV images get used all the time in rebutting claims, mainly personal but on the odd occasion to the press directly.

If any political party, either from the left or from the right, is daft enough to pull an opportunistic stunt on a train and get it wrong, then they deserve all they get. Don't they realise that CCTV is nearly everywhere these days?

If I was on his team, I would be seething at the incompetence shown by those around him on that train. In all walks of life you should never expose your boss to unnecessary ridicule.

 

[jon0844]

Jeremy Hunt is a fool, but he is not running for PM, Corbyn is so needs to be held to a higher standard and two wrongs don't make a right. That's like saying a girl got raped today but 5 people got murdered so the rape doesn't matter....really....

Spot on.

Plus I think Jeremy Hunt has been mentioned a few times in the media over the last year or two.

 

[thenorthern]

All politicians can't seem to travel on the train like normal passengers, whenever they are photographed in First Class the head cover thing is removed.

Its important to note that Jeremy Corbyn was doing this as part of his campaign to re-nationalise the railways but whenever Labour say they are going to bring the railways into public ownership don't fall for it they said they would in the 90s and they were in office for 13 years and didn't. Then Milliband called for it in 2012 but then by 2015 dropped that pledge, Labour only say it because it sounds popular but really they won't ever bring the railways back into public ownership.

 

[bnm]

It's also on a service where almost all of the trains were designed and built by a publically owned company (and were state of the art at the time), so I'm not sure that your point holds water.

If we're talking about the Class 91s and Mk4s, then the Class 91s were designed by private company GEC, with the build subcontracted to BREL, a private company for the majority of the build (build started in 1988, BREL privatised 1989). The Mk4s build was started by the private consortium Metro Cammell/GEC-Alsthom. GEC-Alsthom took over Metro Cammell during the build.

 

[matt_world2004]

Are you a lawyer who specialises in DPA issues. This chap is, he disagrees with you.

He doesnt appear to be a lawyer or solicitor certainly not one regulated in the UK.

 

[jon0844]

All politicians can't seem to travel on the train like normal passengers, whenever they are photographed in First Class the head cover thing is removed.

Its important to note that Jeremy Corbyn was doing this as part of his campaign to re-nationalise the railways but whenever Labour say they are going to bring the railways into public ownership don't fall for it they said they would in the 90s and they were in office for 13 years and didn't. Then Milliband called for it in 2012 but then by 2015 dropped that pledge, Labour only say it because it sounds popular but really they won't ever bring the railways back into public ownership.

And it only sounds popular because it's easy to attack private companies, even though the reality is that they're not exactly making a huge sum of money.

Or more to the point, they are making money, but the VAST majority of the money in ticket prices isn't going to pay nice profits to bosses and shareholders. It's to Network Rail.

But facts don't matter. We know now that we don't need experts. We just need someone to tell it like it is. Or say what we want to hear, and right now, that's that big private companies are bad.

Hey, we're back to that South Park episode I mentioned before again.

 

[jayah]

Are you a lawyer who specialises in DPA issues. This chap is, he disagrees with you.

Lots of use of the word believe there...

He is arguing disclosure to the media is lawful because a train is a public place.... Ops.

Verifying claims is one thing, releasing CCTV to the Evening Standard is quite another.

We shall see what the ICO has to say as they are already engaged.

 

[EM2]

Even when he sits down at 1143 there were still plenty of seats spare in coach H alone.

Which he wouldn't have known when he boarded. Still not evidence of a lie.

 

[Darandio]

He doesnt appear to be a lawyer or solicitor certainly not one regulated in the UK.

Lots of use of the word believe there...

He is arguing disclosure to the media is lawful because a train is a public place.... Ops.

But he was a Data Protection / FOI Officer in local government and the NHS for nearly ten years and worked for the UK Information Commissioner.

I still expect him to be discredited as not having a clue.

 

[backontrack]

Which he wouldn't have known when he boarded. Still not evidence of a lie.

There is CCTV footage of him walking through Coach H (complete with requisite empty seats) before he took the video.

 

[ninja-lewis]

Still there is no legal justfication for releasing cctv footage that is there to prevent crime and protect customer and staff safety.

From the Virgin Trains privacy policy (reasonable to assume VTEC policy does not differ significantly):

We and/or our authorised third parties (including the Association of Train Operating Companies) may also use your personal information: (a) for internal market research and analysis purposes; (b) to carry out survey related activities with you, and (c) dealing with any complaints, refunds and other ticketing / travel issues.

We employ CCTV on our trains and in our stations in order to:

• prevent, deter and detect crime
• apprehend and prosecute offenders, and provide evidence to take civil action in the courts
• help provide a safer environment for our staff
• protect public safety
• help to provide improved customer service, for example by enabling staff to see customers requiring assistance
• monitor operational and safety related incidents
• assist with the verification of claims

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/privacy-policy

Usage appears compatible with the policy, never mind the DPA journalism exemption mentioned by others.

 

[EM2]

Cornyn lying and suggesting Virgin as a privately operated franchise were unable to provide enough seating when, in fact, seats were available was arguably defamatory.

Has he actually said that?

 

[matt_world2004]

But he was a Data Protection / FOI Officer in local government and the NHS for nearly ten years and worked for the UK Information Commissioner.

I still expect him to be discredited as not having a clue.

I was responding to this post.

Are you a lawyer who specialises in DPA issues. This chap is, he disagrees with you.

 

[bnm]

He doesnt appear to be a lawyer or solicitor certainly not one regulated in the UK.

He does appear to know what he's talking about though, with a Masters of Law in Information Rights degree, as well as experience working in, and developing policy for, the ICO.

I'd go with his take on the legal aspects of Virgin releasing CCTV footage of the incident in question. Ahead of those here who say it is illegal.

 

[EM2]

There is CCTV footage of him walking through Coach H (complete with requisite empty seats) before he took the video.

Seats that appear to be empty.

 

[Darandio]

I was responding to this post.

And that chap is Tim Turner, who I was referring to.

 

[matt_world2004]

From the Virgin Trains privacy policy (reasonable to assume VTEC policy does not differ significantly):



https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/privacy-policy

Usage appears compatible with the policy, never mind the DPA journalism exemption mentioned by others.

Wrong virgin trains, and section 5.2.2 of the legally binding CCTV code of practice disagrees with you

""Disclosure of information from surveillance systems must be controlled
and consistent with the purpose(s) for which the system was established.
For example, it can be appropriate to disclose surveillance information to
a law enforcement agency when the purpose of the system is to prevent
and detect crime, but it would not be appropriate to place them on the internet in most situations. It may also not be appropriate to disclose
information about identifiable individuals to the media"

it goes on to say CCTV footage can only really be released to media by a member of law enforcement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And that chap is Tim Turner, who I was referring to.

Yes I was responding to a post that claimed he was a lawyer, which he isn't.

 

[bnm]

We shall see what the ICO has to say as they are already engaged.

Engaged by whom?

 

[Clarence Yard]

There is CCTV footage of him walking through Coach H (complete with requisite empty seats) before he took the video.

That's where his team have been, utterly, utterly stupid. You do not do a filming stunt on overcrowding after walking through a coach like that. Pick another train or another time so you can't be questioned on the facts.

And his people want to take Virgin to the ICO? Are they mad? They need to bury this story, not keep it running!

 

[ainsworth74]

Do people seriously think that Virgin released these images without first taking advice as to the legality of doing so?

 

[matt_world2004]

That's where his team have been, utterly, utterly stupid. You do not do a filming stunt on overcrowding after walking through a coach like that. Pick another train or another time so you can't be questioned on the facts.

And his people want to take Virgin to the ICO? Are they mad? They need to bury this story, not keep it running!

His people unless I missed something none of his campaign team have said anything about taking it to the ICO and that is probably what vtec were banking on.

 

[dk1]

This has pleased me so much today. Virgin Trains are very good at fighting back especially on Twitter & will argue their side. Never understand why so many TOCs roll over. Perhaps Corbyn should stick to the National Express coach network. It seems to suit him better.

 

[backontrack]

That's where his team have been, utterly, utterly stupid. You do not do a filming stunt on overcrowding after walking through a coach like that. Pick another train or another time so you can't be questioned on the facts.

And his people want to take Virgin to the ICO? Are they mad? They need to bury this story, not keep it running!

Meh. They think that they'll win the day if they can make it stick.

Big business and all that.

 

[jayah]

Engaged by whom?

They have already said publicly that they are investigating complaints on this matter. It may surprise you to hear that the ICO are unlikely to disclose who has complained!

 

[matt_world2004]

Do people seriously think that Virgin released these images without first taking advice as to the legality of doing so?

Considering their Euston based counterparts cannot even honour their legal responcibilities on contracts they helped write , particularly with regards to split ticketing or with staff travel agreements that they helped negotiate , I doubt it. to be honest

 

[Robertj21a]

They have already said publicly that they are investigating complaints on this matter. It may surprise you to hear that the ICO are unlikely to disclose who has complained!

I hope it's Virgin complaining at being stitched up by some idiot who is stuck in his own little 1960s world.

 

[jayah]

Meh. They think that they'll win the day if they can make it stick.

Big business and all that.

If VTEC did upgrade this family to First Class, while arguing there were lots of empty seats, they will be in stick, but the Court of Public Opinion is down on Corbyn so he won't win even if he is right.

I love the way overcrowding is the fault of Cup Finals and fares regulation. Let us make all trains Anytime restricted even at 11am from London and this ghastly overcrowding will disappear overnight.

 

[yorksrob]

​

I don't remember BR ever buying more than the bare minimum of trains (usually too few) or cutting fares (they invented peak hour restrictions).
The HST and IC225 programmes were capped specifically by BR/DfT/Treasury, the last planned tranche of HSTs for the ECML being canned.
Just like a Corbyn administration would do.
And anyway, the replacement EC IEP trains were 100% specified and contracted by the government, not Virgin.

Somewhat similar to how the 185's ordered by TPE were cut back to three carriages by Government, and Northern's new fleet of diesel trains was announced then disappeared (can't remember if this last one came back again).

 

[jayah]

I hope it's Virgin complaining at being stitched up by some idiot who is stuck in his own little 1960s world.

Stitched up by praising their helpful staff? They could have replied publicly and said our records show there were 100 empty seats in Coach F, but they didn't.

 

[yorksrob]

If we're talking about the Class 91s and Mk4s, then the Class 91s were designed by private company GEC, with the build subcontracted to BREL, a private company for the majority of the build (build started in 1988, BREL privatised 1989). The Mk4s build was started by the private consortium Metro Cammell/GEC-Alsthom. GEC-Alsthom took over Metro Cammell during the build.

Ok, part public/part private built, but successfully specified and procured by a public company.