Jeremy Corbyn's Traingate

[cuccir]

I think there are two ways of looking at this. The first is that, as many people have pointed out, it's quite plausible, looking at the stills and the video, that Corybn and his team couldn't initally find the seats that they required - two or perhaps a few more unreserved seats together for the full London-Newcastle journey. However, the second is that it's also a vast overstatement to describe the train as 'ram-packed', which Corbyn initially did.

It's difficult to square this claim with Corbyn's (laudible) attempts to do politics without media manipulation, spin and PR. As a Corbyn-sympathetic leftie who wants him to succeed but who recognizes the merits in the criticisms of his leadership, this incident pushes me quite significantly away from him as it undermines one of his previously unchallenged qualities, that is, his honesty and integrity.

 

[Darandio]

Don't know if it has been mentioned but nearly all those empty seats had reservation tickets on them.

Mentioned many, many times. And it doesn't matter if they have tickets on them, we don't know where they were reserved from.

Additionally, another CCTV image shows another coach with what appears to be empty seats and no reservation tickets.

 

[Phil.]

C'mon let's admit it, Corbyn lied and has proven once again that he's just another shifty politician. After being caught out his assistants/aides are now running around like headless chickens in a damage limiting exercise. Now they're complaining that Virgin releasing the video is a breach of data privacy.
His big chip on the shoulder - like all of his ilk - is private enterprise and every opportunity is taken to discredit it. He got caught out by his own lies and he and his assistants/aides are still digging that hole.
The best of it is, is that Virgin would have given him and his party a discount for travel yet those same people want to destroy the companies like Virgin. Corbyn like so many others has no real understanding of railways. "We need more trains" was a quote that he made. There's a half hourly service to Newcastle Jeremy, how many more do you want?

 

[miami]

Virgin Trains East Coast actually pays a sizeable amount to the Treasury, not the other way around.

East Coast customers pay a sizeable amount to Virgin Trains East Coast. VTEC wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making money. The argument would go that if it were run by a state owned company, they would charge the same amount, but rather than pay 1% (10%, 0.1%, whatever) of the revenue as dividends, that money would go back to the treasury. Unless the entire rail network was operating without subsidy I think it's fair enough to say that the TOCs (mostly excluding open access ones) rely on subsidy to make a profit.

However his fundamental point that privitisaion would allow those dividends to be pumped back into the treasury, makes a massive assumption that a state owned company would be able to be as efficient as a private one. You could even argue that it would have been more efficient as the wage rises for railstaff (especially drivers) wouldn't have risen as much with the competition since 1994. However experience shows that it wouldn't be as efficient.


I'm much less concerned with "Professional liar caught lying" than I am with "Virgin Trains East Coast ignores data protection obligations"

 

[Greenback]

Let's also admit that all politicians are wont to lie and distort the truth if they think it will give them an advantage. It's one of the reasons why so many people are disenchanted with politics and the political elite.

The real tragedy is that some people believed Jeremy Corbyn was different.

Regardless of the truth of what actually happened on that train, I think we can all agree that Corbyn and his spin doctors did their very best to manipulate the situation in order get support for the leadership election.

I'm convinced that ordinary passengers who were not looking for political mileage would have sat separately from each other, asked other passengers to remove their bags form empty seats, and generally made much more of an effort to get a seat somewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

this incident pushes me quite significantly away from him as it undermines one of his previously unchallenged qualities, that is, his honesty and integrity.

I spoke out against him at work for being just another snake in the grass. Suffice to say I was heavily criticised. I went away, listened to the more politically sensitive people and kept an open mind.

The crew room last night was very anti-corbyn. I think a few people suddenly saw another Tory in a Socialist coat.

Everything he seems to espouse is unravelling.

 

[Kettledrum]

In other words, the guard - like most Virgin guards - was trying to be helpful in upgrading some passengers to first class. Nice of Corbyn to then criticise the company!

One can hardly complain about a train being "rammed" just because a large group cannot sit together. This can be a struggle even on very lightly loaded trains if one is not prepared to ask passengers to move.

The only thing this story shows is what a fantastic job the train crew did in arranging the upgrades so that JC and his team could all sit together. This was way over and above the call of duty. For anyone else, the chances are that the group that had not reserved tickets would have had to split up and sit apart.

 

[Greenback]

I never subscribed to Corbyn being different. I hoped he would be, but I always suspected that the political machinery which has to surround politicians these days would ensure that it wouldn't happen.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm much less concerned with "Professional liar caught lying" than I am with "Virgin Trains East Coast ignores data protection obligations"

Then probably the best thing to do is be professionally outraged and make a formal complaint to the Information Commissioner.

This will mean a 6 month investigation and the whole story can be repeated in the media at that point.

After all. What's the point of CCTV in a public place if it isn't to catch people engaging in crooked and dishonest behaviour?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Latest gaff by Corbyn's office is Branson relies on the taxpayer for his TOC profits.

I'm unsure which bit of this is incorrect?

The most recent figures show that VTEC receive a subsidy of 1.1p per passenger mile and VTWC receive a subsidy of 4.6p per passenger mile, when you factor everything in.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile#history

In the most recent figures there are only two TOCs which deliver a premium to HM Treasury- SWT and Southern- and I think we can discount the latter from this year given the changes there.

So yes, Sir Branson does get his profits from the taxpayer. Oops. Corbyn is right.
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I'm much less concerned with "Professional liar caught lying" than I am with "Virgin Trains East Coast ignores data protection obligations"

Indeed. Of course people seem very happy to gloss over this because either a) they don't know the people who were shown in the stills and b) OMG CORBYN IS A TROT AND HOW DARE HE CRITICISE SAINT RICHARD.

The fact that East Coast Trains Limited passed CCTV data to Virgin West Coast Limited, who then published unredacted images of passengers in a press release, is extremely troubling.

Someone else pointed people in the direction of an information specialist on Twitter named Tim Turner. This is what he said about it:

There is no excuse for the unredacted punters - sloppy and probably a breach

https://twitter.com/tim2040/status/768195830415134721

The behaviour of the two Virgin Trains branded companies has been very troubling.

 

[yorkie]

Don't know if it has been mentioned but nearly all those empty seats had reservation tickets on them.

Yes, for journeys such as Newcastle-Edinburgh, or were simply not taken up.

 

[Johnuk123]

Like doesn`t the press of this little hovel of a nation like to kick this guy enough. He does this one thing wrong maybe and half the forum is wetting itself in fury.

Rather stupid comment to say the least.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm not actually convinced that any TOC pays enough to cover the costs of the service they provide - the track access costs probably cover some of the maintenance but it would seem that the state has had to get involved to fund new rolling stock and that separate finance is required to build new lines - the transport economics are rather more complex than the average person understands, but all TOCs rely on previous investment by the state and individuals to actually build the infrastructure in the first place - Virgins contribution only goes to service other state capital and revenue costs and as suggested above, Virgin and others wouldn't be in it without a significant profit for their shareholders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think there are two ways of looking at this. The first is that, as many people have pointed out, it's quite plausible, looking at the stills and the video, that Corybn and his team couldn't initally find the seats that they required

Does not say much for his support team that if they required seats, that they could not do what the rest of us do and book reservations when booking the tickets.

 

[miami]

Can't find East Coat's CCT Vpolicy, but west coast's will be similar.

We employ CCTV on our trains and in our stations in order to:

prevent, deter and detect crime
apprehend and prosecute offenders, and provide evidence to take civil action in the courts
help provide a safer environment for our staff
protect public safety
help to provide improved customer service, for example by enabling staff to see customers requiring assistance
monitor operational and safety related incidents
assist with the verification of claims

I guess that "assist with the verification of claims" would be the one that applied here.

In certain circumstances we may need to disclose CCTV images for legal reasons. When this is done there is a requirement for the organisation that has received the images to adhere to the Data Protection Act.

There's no mention of them disclosing CCTV images for purposes of PR.
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Does not say much for his support team that if they required seats, that they could not do what the rest of us do and book reservations when booking the tickets.

As has been mentioned many times, the reason most of us buy flexible tickets is to be flexible. Unless you're suggesting he reserve seats on about 6 different trains?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does not say much for his support team that if they required seats, that they could not do what the rest of us do and book reservations when booking the tickets.

A flexible ticket being flexible. The horror!

People weren't so exercised when Economics George Osborne upgraded himself to first class without paying for it. Funny that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Corbyn's campaign manager was on BBC Breakfast this morning and did state that they had a seat reservation but due to a last minute change were unable to travel on the service for which they had reservations.

People weren't so exercised when Economics George Osborne upgraded himself to first class without paying for it. Funny that.

Perhaps not in the media but I recall this Forum being a hive of hysteria!

 

[Haydn1971]

Does not say much for his support team that if they required seats, that they could not do what the rest of us do and book reservations when booking the tickets.

To be fair, at short notice it's difficult to get two seats together let alone a group of seats. The situation is that the message being put forward that rail isn't fit for purpose has been blown apart by a private rail company that profits from the rail system not being fit for purpose. Virgin and other TOCs have a vested interest in making sure Corbyn doesn't get his way, meanwhile the public continues to suffer because some PR spin hides the real story.

 

[highdyke]

I'm unsure which bit of this is incorrect?

The most recent figures show that VTEC receive a subsidy of 1.1p per passenger mile and VTWC receive a subsidy of 4.6p per passenger mile, when you factor everything in.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile#history

In the most recent figures there are only two TOCs which deliver a premium to HM Treasury- SWT and Southern- and I think we can discount the latter from this year given the changes there.

From that document

"In 2014 to 2015, 3 train operators had a negative subsidy per passenger mile, meaning that they paid government a larger premium than the effective subsidies they received via the Network Grant payment to Network Rail. These operators were South West Trains, Southern and East Coast."

The effective subsidy argument of-course falls back on Network Rail...A nationalised company with very large debt paying interest on loans.

The Unions and Corbyn are trying their best to sink two of the truly profitable TOCs. In the future VTEC is paying £9.3 billion over 8 years.

 

[Greenback]

To be fair, at short notice it's difficult to get two seats together let alone a group of seats. The situation is that the message being put forward that rail isn't fit for purpose has been blown apart by a private rail company that profits from the rail system not being fit for purpose. Virgin and other TOCs have a vested interest in making sure Corbyn doesn't get his way, meanwhile the public continues to suffer because some PR spin hides the real story.

Naturally, Virgin have a vested interest in keeping the system the way it is, or even better for them, making it work better for the private companies.

But you do have to also remember that it was Corbyn and his team that started this whole thing off!

There is a good story to be had here, and it's a shame that this has been totally undermined by the dark arts of the spin doctors. Like I said earlier, Mr C may have the best of intentions, or he may not, but even if the former is correct he is up against some powerful political machinery.

 

[Haydn1971]

There is a good story to be had here, and it's a shame that this has been totally undermined by the dark arts of the spin doctors. Like I said earlier, Mr C may have the best of intentions, or he may not, but even if the former is correct he is up against some powerful political machinery.

Indeed, it's the spin that makes me (and so many others) so tired of the political system we have now. We are a nation more interested in the hype behind Celeb nobody's than the 650 people that actually manage our nation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In 2014 to 2015, 3 train operators had a negative subsidy per passenger mile, meaning that they paid government a larger premium than the effective subsidies they received via the Network Grant payment to Network Rail. These operators were South West Trains, Southern and East Coast."

Which is odd, as the actual table right above the quote says that only two did- Southern and SWT- and that East Coast had an effective subsidy of 0.0p and VTEC had an effective subsidy of 1.1p.

The previous year, before Saint Richard and Saint Brian brought their special brand of private sector efficiency to the table, saw East Coast provide an effective premium of 0.6p per passenger mile, though. The other two to do so were First Capital Connect and South West Trains.

The effective subsidy argument of-course falls back on Network Rail...A nationalised company with very large debt paying interest on loans.

That's as maybe, but Network Rail only have that debt because they had to borrow to fund the network improvements that Richard Branson has benefitted from so much, in particular on the West Coast.

The effective subsidy is the best way of showing whether a TOC owner is reliant on state handouts for their money. And the only TOC owner who isn't is Stagecoach at South West Trains.

The Unions and Corbyn are trying their best to sink two of the truly profitable TOCs.

Huh?

East Coast was more profitable to the taxpayer under state control. West Coast hasn't ever provided an effective premium (and for most of the 2000s didn't even provide a TOC premium). Their effective subsidy actually increased by nearly 3p per passenger mile in 2014-15!

The only truly profitable TOC is South West Trains. And much as I detest Souter, there should be some credit for that. But I don't see Corbyn or "the unions" (whoever they may be) out to cause carnage on SWT.

 

[ExRes]

Just because someone lives in a country does not mean they can't criticize the worst aspects of it. One way we can make improvements is to stand up to the worst of people.

Your statement is like telling someone not to complain about being punched in the face because some people get murdered. :roll:

If you think calling this country a 'little hovel of a country' is acceptable then I'll disagree with you, vehemently thank you, criticism is one thing downright rudeness is another. Don't forget to consider that if the country is a hovel then the people who live in it must be described in the same way, those that aren't the spineless whingers who should pack their bags with all haste and visit the greener grass elsewhere of course

Incidentally, who are 'the worst of people' that we should be standing up to?, the people who call our country a hovel?

 

[highdyke]

And the only TOC owner who isn't is Stagecoach at South West Trains.

...who own the majority share of VTEC

The profits argument is of course mute when you consider TOC profits are about £300 million a year, Drivers alone are paid 3-4 times more than that. Corbyn wants to enforce their rights, to extract even more out of the system.

A smoke screen if ever there was one..

And despite all the bluster the bogie man still in the room is the Nationalised Network Rail.

 

[J-2739]

-Late-

Somehow, I don't se Renationalisation happening due to this mess.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The profits argument is of course mute when you consider TOC profits are about £300 million a year, Drivers alone are paid 3-4 times more than that.

ATOC reckon the average profit margin is 5%.

I'd take a 5% fare cut, or see 5% more investment.

What have drivers salaries got to do with the price of fish? You won't run many trains without drivers. We know, Souter tried at SWT in the late 90s.

 

[highdyke]

ATOC reckon the average profit margin is 5%.

I'd take a 5% fare cut, or see 5% more investment.

What have drivers salaries got to do with the price of fish? You won't run many trains without drivers. We know, Souter tried at SWT in the late 90s.

ASLEF getting Corbyn into power? Conflict of interest maybe?

The profit margin is wafer thin, that's why pension funds and other state railways are mainly interested. There's plenty of railway staff on final salary pensions getting money from shareholders. The rest of the cash IS for the return on investment.

 

[6Gman]

There seems to be tweets from members of the public on that service. Apparently there weren't enough seats together for him and his team and due to the nature of whatever they were filming or doing they needed to stick together.
The public are saying that Virgin staff moved quite a few other passengers around including a several getting free upgrades so Virgin could accommodate Corbyn and his crew with seats together.

So would Virgin move people about to allow my wife and I to sit together?

By some upgrading?

I think not ...

 

[zuriblue]

Someone sent me this, to be honest I did laugh. JC was papped on the way to Newcastle

(Courtesy the Rochdale Herald)

Looks pretty rammed to me.

 

[6Gman]

Don't know if it has been mentioned but nearly all those empty seats had reservation tickets on them.

Not in Coach H they didn't.