What Penalty (If Any) Should I Expect?

[Kieran V]

Hi There!

I'd like to start this off by saying I'm really not 'That Guy' who goes out of their way to avoid paying train fares!

Despite this, after a recent trip from Prees to Whitchurch (Shrop) (Only a £3.70 travel cost), I was stopped at my final destination and asked for a ticket. This is a regular occurrence as there are not barriers at the destination station.

I was unable to buy a ticket before I got on the train as the ticket machine was on the opposite platform (Getting to the other platform was impossible as the only way to get to the other side was blocked due to the trains arrival).

I was also not asked for a ticket by the conductor on the train as it was a very short trip and the conductor didn't get to me on time. So when I got to my final destination and I was asked for a ticket, I explained to the people questioning me the reasons why I couldn't buy a ticket on the train or before I boarded. I even offered to buy the ticket there and then twice!

After they disregarded this information and basically called me a liar, they escorted me to one side and started questioning me and took my details. I gave them all my details and they explained to me that I may be prosecuted and I may even be taken to court, they even read me my rights (You have the right to remain silent..) for the first time in my life. I'm just wondering what the next steps are and if I'm likely to be prosecuted?

Many Thanks
Kieran

 

[mikeg]

It could be argued that if the arriving train blocked your way to the ticket machine you were too late and therefore hadn't left adequate time to buy a ticket. Looking on the national rail website It says prees doesn't have a tvm but this is frequently out of date. Can you confirm to me the following facts:

1. Does Prees indeed have a ticket machine?
2. What sort of payment does the machine accept?
3. With what means did you wish to pay?

 

[embers25]

Hi There!

I'd like to start this off by saying I'm really not 'That Guy' who goes out of their way to avoid paying train fares!

Despite this, after a recent trip from Prees to Whitchurch (Shrop) (Only a £3.70 travel cost), I was stopped at my final destination and asked for a ticket. This is a regular occurrence as there are not barriers at the destination station.

I was unable to buy a ticket before I got on the train as the ticket machine was on the opposite platform (Getting to the other platform was impossible as the only way to get to the other side was blocked due to the trains arrival).

I was also not asked for a ticket by the conductor on the train as it was a very short trip and the conductor didn't get to me on time. So when I got to my final destination and I was asked for a ticket, I explained to the people questioning me the reasons why I couldn't buy a ticket on the train or before I boarded. I even offered to buy the ticket there and then twice!

After they disregarded this information and basically called me a liar, they escorted me to one side and started questioning me and took my details. I gave them all my details and they explained to me that I may be prosecuted and I may even be taken to court, they even read me my rights (You have the right to remain silent..) for the first time in my life. I'm just wondering what the next steps are and if I'm likely to be prosecuted?

Many Thanks
Kieran

This raises the interesting question I wonder about too. At Pinhoe the only ticket machine is on the Exeter bound platform and the Exeter train arrives a few minutes before the London one. So if you are going towards London to buy your ticket you have to allow enough time to walk half way down the Exeter platform, buy the ticket and get back across the crossing before the Exeter train triggers the crossing just after it leaves Cranbrook meaning you have to be across the crossing over 5 minutes before your train as, once the Exeter train has passed, usually the crossing remains down as the London train has triggered it too. I know this so allow enough time but the average person wouldn't know that.

 

[island]

It's a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket at a station where facilities to do so are available and working. The law does not make allowances for passengers choosing to arrive so shortly before their train that they do not have time to purchase a ticket. Therefore it would appear you are guilty of this offence.

You would need to wait until you receive correspondence from the train company regarding the offence; they will usually ask for a statement explaining what happened and this will be your opportunity to express remorse for your offence and offer to make good the cost of detecting and dealing with offenders. If you have not come to the attention of the railway before, most settlements for this type of offence tend to involve the payment of a sum in the region of £80 in return for a prosecution not being taken forward.

 

[crehld]

Have a look at this thread, which is a similar situation to yours and on the same line:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119321

The process of resolving that incident and the outcome is pretty much as island outlines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It could be argued that if the arriving train blocked your way to the ticket machine you were too late and therefore hadn't left adequate time to buy a ticket. Looking on the national rail website It says prees doesn't have a tvm but this is frequently out of date. Can you confirm to me the following facts:

1. Does Prees indeed have a ticket machine?
2. What sort of payment does the machine accept?
3. With what means did you wish to pay?

Arriva Trains Wales have been installing ticket machines on that route relatively recently. By the OP's own admission there was a ticket machine available, so I wouldn't put too much faith in the National Rail website, which is typically inaccurate. I agree the provision of a single machine on an inaccessible platform is wholly inadequate, but as island says nothing about the adequacy of the facilities or how much time one needs to leave to use them, only that they exist.

 

[319321]

Two things here:
1) Surely the ticket machine would have to be accessible to the OP? In the case of a level crossing closure, the ticket machine would not be accessible to the OP, and it is the railway that is at fault given the fact that the level crossing is closed. The OP cannot be expected to know exactly when the level crossing is going to be closed. Sufficient time is time to reach the machine, use it, then proceed to the platform to get the train, and I don't think it includes the time the railway decides to prohibit the OP from being able to access the machine.

2) Surely, from a safety point of view it would be better to allow passengers unable to access the TVM due to a level crossing closure it would be better for the TOC to allow passengers to purchase on board or at the destination rather than encourage passengers to make unlawful and dangerous crossing to buy tickets (even if legally, they can do this?)

 

[gray1404]

It could be argued that if the arriving train blocked your way to the ticket machine you were too late and therefore hadn't left adequate time to buy a ticket.

I would agree with this statement. It sounds like you did allow enough time to buy a ticket but access to the ticket machine was blocked. Had you been able to get to it then you would have been able to buy a ticket before travel.

 

[Master29]

I would agree with this statement. It sounds like you did allow enough time to buy a ticket but access to the ticket machine was blocked. Had you been able to get to it then you would have been able to buy a ticket before travel.

This doesn't always stand up. The burden of proof will then be on the OP. Photographic or mitigating evidence perhaps? Unless the OP can give us any more info; well, we all know the rest.

 

[najaB]

It's an interesting question: is an inaccessible TVM an opportunity to purchase?

What is the layout of the station? Is it impossible to reach the TVM once a train is in the station or just difficult?

 

[crehld]

It's an interesting question: is an inaccessible TVM an opportunity to purchase?

What is the layout of the station? Is it impossible to reach the TVM once a train is in the station or just difficult?

I believe at Prees it's a case of the TVM is only on one platform and the only way to access the other platform is by way of a level crossing which will be obviously closed if a train is approaching / passing through.

 

[gray1404]

What time:

did the OP arrive at the station to catch their train?
what time was their train due to depart?
what time did the level crossing barriers go down/ where they already down when the OP arrived at the station?

 

[najaB]

I believe at Prees it's a case of the TVM is only on one platform and the only way to access the other platform is by way of a level crossing which will be obviously closed if a train is approaching / passing through.

Letter of the law: there were facilities for the purchase of a ticket. However, the OP was prevented from using those facilities by the requirement to comply with Byelaw 12.1 and/or 13.1 (i) (presuming there are signs saying not to cross the track other than by the crossing.

If I were the OP, I would respond to the TOC admitting that I was in the wrong for not having a ticket but explaining that I hadn't purchased one because I didn't want to trespass on the track.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

This is how it looked in 2009. Once that barrier comes down you're scuppered. I'm no law talking guy but I wonder if it could be argued that, while the barriers are down, there are no ticketing facilities (for passengers wanting to use the other platform anyway).

But that argument would succeed or fail based on how long before the arrival of the train the barriers lower. I found this video of a passing train. Gates were down for about 2 minutes.

 

[gray1404]

Yes I totally agree with najaB. I personally do not believe that the OP was in the wrong though as there was actually no opportunity for them to purchase as they were prevented. Had there been a second TVM on the other platform or a footbridge/subway (subject to the OP not having a disability preventing them from using it) then that would be a different matter. (as if that were to apply ATWs own policy would allow them to phurchase during the journey without penalty)

As it was ATW then I highly suspect that the OP encountered a member of staff working for the outsourced contractor who call themselves Transport Investigations Limited. Just like the Northern franchise using their contractors. These guys do not show the same level of intelligence and discretion as a railway company RPI would normally show in a case where there was mitigating circumstances. The other down side is that (unlike Northern) Transport Investigations write to the passenger and handle the case themselves acting as an agent for the train company.

For future reference though, if this happens again, seek out the guard as soon as he opens the doors - you will see him/her on the platform. Or walk through the entire train and find them - do not just sit down. I could not see any reasonable guard refusing to sell a ticket in a case whereby the level crossing barrier was down and this prevented a passenger from getting their ticket on a line with such a irregular service pattern.

 

[najaB]

For future reference though, if this happens again, seek out the guard as soon as he opens the doors - you will see him/her on the platform. Or walk through the entire train and find them - do not just sit down.

While this is pragmatic advice and what I would probably do myself, it is yet to be clarified that this is a legal requirement. The only obligation on the passenger is to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity. If, for any reason, the guard isn't available then they aren't the first opportunity (much like a ticket machine that you can't get to).

 

[gray1404]

I agree with you and I would not be pro-actively looking for or asking the guard if there were no ticket selling facilities. However, if there were and I could not access them (to avoid blame being placed on me) I would go over and have a word.

 

[6Gman]

Given that Prees to Whitchurch is only 6-7 minutes I would go looking for the guard!

I also have to confess that unless the TVM is pretty prominent I would have assumed that I would be paying on the train.

 

[Haywain]

I was unable to buy a ticket before I got on the train as the ticket machine was on the opposite platform (Getting to the other platform was impossible as the only way to get to the other side was blocked due to the trains arrival).

A number of posters are suggesting that the OP was not in the wrong due to the TVM being inaccessible. I am not convinced by this argument because the OP, in the first post on this thread, stated that they were unable to access the TVM due to "the trains arrival". If this was the arrival of the train the OP intended to catch, this would suggest that a minimal amount of time had been allowed to buy the ticket. In this case, arguing that the means of purchased could easily be countered by the argument that insufficient time had been left.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Haywain. I'm not sure that getting to the station just before the arrival of the train is sufficient time to get a ticket even if the TVM is accessible. Suppose someone else has just started using it, for instance?

 

[najaB]

A number of posters are suggesting that the OP was not in the wrong due to the TVM being inaccessible. I am not convinced by this argument because the OP, in the first post on this thread, stated that they were unable to access the TVM due to "the trains arrival".

I suppose it all depends on how long elapsed between the barrier sequence starting and the train departing. As I said above, the OP should have bought a ticket and was in the wrong having not done so, however if barrier was down for an unusually long time then they *might* have a valid reason to have boarded sans-billet.

 

[Need2]

A number of posters are suggesting that the OP was not in the wrong due to the TVM being inaccessible. I am not convinced by this argument because the OP, in the first post on this thread, stated that they were unable to access the TVM due to "the trains arrival". If this was the arrival of the train the OP intended to catch, this would suggest that a minimal amount of time had been allowed to buy the ticket. In this case, arguing that the means of purchased could easily be countered by the argument that insufficient time had been left.

The OP could not buy a ticket because the ticket machine was on the other platform to the train he was catching. The only access to the other platform was blocked due to the crossing barriers being down as a train was there going in the other direction.
To leave a reasonable amount of time to get a ticket could in this case have been about 10 - 15 minutes minimum. He has to factor in getting the ticket in enough time to get back across the level crossing to the his platform before the 1st train arrives.
How much earlier than your trains arrival are you 'reasonably' expected to give in order to buy a ticket?
I bet there is no definitive answer.

 

[najaB]

The only access to the other platform was blocked due to the crossing barriers being down as a train was there going in the other direction.

That isn't what the OP says. They didn't mention a second train.

How much earlier than your trains arrival are you 'reasonably' expected to give in order to buy a ticket?
I bet there is no definitive answer.

No, there isn't. Technically if there are facilities you must use them regardless of how long it will take. On a practical level, at a small unstaffed station, anything over five minutes would be reasonable.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I always find this an interesting topic: what you should do, what you are allowed to do etc.

It seems to me that many people seem to treat the railways in a totally different manner to any other commercial organisation where you have to buy products and services. After all, you wouldn't run into Tesco's if you were late, pick up an item, go past the tills because they were busy, and say to the police 'well, no-one asked me to pay'. I guess a lot of this is because so many stations went 'open' and it gave people the idea that you could walk on the train and buy a ticket. When I was a kid my local station had one of big gates, and there was always someone on the gate checking tickets.

I know this case is different because there was no ticket office, but i'm sure I've read on many occasions in this forum that if a machine exists you should buy a ticket, and if you can't it's your responsibility to find the guard and buy one. That said, if I was in this situation, I would expect the guard to come and find me, akin to a bus conductor.

I guess what's missing here is pro-activeness. What would the OP done if the revenue protection people not been there?

 

[najaB]

I know this case is different because there was no ticket office, but i'm sure I've read on many occasions in this forum that if a machine exists you should buy a ticket, and if you can't it's your responsibility to find the guard and buy one. That said, if I was in this situation, I would expect the guard to come and find me, akin to a bus conductor.

That's not entirely true. If you can't buy a ticket before boarding then your obligation is to buy one at the first available opportunity. If the guard doesn't make him or herself present then they can't be classed as an opportunity to purchase.

While there is nothing stopping you seeking them out, there is no requirement to.

I guess what's missing here is pro-activeness. What would the OP done if the revenue protection people not been there?

That is exactly what the TOC's prosecution team will be seeking to determine. The OP already demonstrated a lack of urgency in failing to purchase a ticket before boarding, and again by not actively seeking to purchase on board (this doesn't require you to seek out the guard - boarding by the door they are standing at would be enough) so what is the likelihood that they would have bought a ticket at the destination (given that it was also an unstaffed station)?

 

[AlterEgo]

If I were defending this, I'd be looking at how long the TVM is inaccessible for. It's on the other platform.

It's reasonable to assume the barriers close two minutes prior to the train arriving. So, at T-2 you have to have completed your purchase, *and* made it back across the crossing. Or you miss the train!

We should assume it takes one minute to cross the crossing. And perhaps two to purchase the appropriate ticket.

A passenger unfamiliar with the station might take a minute to orient themselves with the station and locate the TVM.

Pretty soon you're looking at passengers having to arrive on station property around 7-8 minutes before the train is due, simply because of the layout of the station. This is for a journey of 6 minutes. I don't feel this is reasonable.

This is one of the reasons I despise the railway byelaws. It's just dreadful that someone can potentially be criminalised for this.

There is no *obligation* to seek out the guard to buy tickets.

 

[najaB]

This is one of the reasons I despise the railway byelaws. It's just dreadful that someone can potentially be criminalised for this.

Given the non-recordable nature of Byelaw offences, it's debatable if someone is 'criminalised' or not by a conviction. I agree though that a prosecution might be unreasonable in this particular situation (depending on how long the barriers were closed for).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pretty soon you're looking at passengers having to arrive on station property around 7-8 minutes before the train is due, simply because of the layout of the station. This is for a journey of 6 minutes. I don't feel this is reasonable.

Of course, the other way to look at it is that it's a roughly 1tp2h service so it's not that unreasonable to expect passengers to ensure they have their tickets sorted out before boarding given that it's not simply a case of 'oh, I'll wait for the next one' as it would be in a metro environment.

 

[AlterEgo]

Given the non-recordable nature of Byelaw offences, it's debatable if someone is 'criminalised' or not by a conviction. I agree though that a prosecution might be unreasonable in this particular situation (depending on how long the barriers were closed for).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course, the other way to look at it is that it's a roughly 1tp2h service so it's not that unreasonable to expect passengers to ensure they have their tickets sorted out before boarding given that it's not simply a case of 'oh, I'll wait for the next one' as it would be in a metro environment.

1tp2h in my view makes it more incumbent on the railway to provide adequate ticketing facilities. Not everyone is a regular traveller and not everyone knows the station layout (including TVM location) before they go. Because there's no "oh I can wait for the next one" mentality the railway should be more sympathetic to passengers unable to buy their tickets before the level crossing barriers come down.

Rural TOCs like ATW really ought to provide ticket machines on board. It would solve so many problems and there really could be no excuse then.

 

[Greenback]

In the circumstances, I am extremely doubtful that ATW would take any action at all against the OP, but we'll have to wait and see what they receive.

If legal action was taken, I think there would be a good defence along the lines of whats' been said above. That being the case does not mean that it's ever advisable to get to the station just as the train is pulling in if you haven't already got a ticket.

I'd much sooner try and avoid getting into this sort of situation by arriving at the departure point in good time, and if for some reason I failed to do that, by trying to find the guard on board to sell me the ticket i need. It's a lot easier than getting stopped, worrying about what might happen, and then having to deal with the TOC further down the line.

 

[BanburyBlue]

It seems a bit strange that the ticket machine is on the other platform - does this station have multiple entrances? Assuming the OP walked into the station, wouldn't that be the obvious place to stick a machine?

And I've never used these machines - do they have a 'pay after the journey' option, I guess an automated 'excess fares' window?

What are you supposed to do if going on a 'unmanned station to unmanned station' journey. If the OP couldn't get to the machine in time, and the guard didn't get around to him on the train, what is he supposed to do at his destination station?

 

[Greenback]

Prees is a very small station but each platform can be accessed from the roadway. The level crossing is the problem, as there is no other way of getting between the platforms apart from the road.

It would cost to have a TVM on each platform, a cost which probably would be very difficult to justify given the numbers using the station.