What Penalty (If Any) Should I Expect?

[AlterEgo]

The current byelaws date to (I think) 1999 or 2000 so they aren't *that* old.

They still hark from an era long bygone. It's a crime not to join a queue, and a crime to pass through a door before someone's left through it.

 

[najaB]

They still hark from an era long bygone. It's a crime not to join a queue...

As well it should be!

 

[furlong]

The current byelaws date to (I think) 1999 or 2000 so they aren't *that* old.

I believe this particular change dates from either 1999/2000 or (less likely) 2005(*). Previously we had just:

3(2) No person other than an authorised person shall enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

but the penalty was not financial (that's for other legislation such as RORA), but either to buy a ticket or leave the railway:

2(3) Any person offending against any of the following Byelaws numbered 3..., and failing to desist or quit, or failing to comply with the Byelaw, as the case may be, when requested so to do by an authorised person may be removed from the railway or any part thereof or any lift or vehicle by an authorised person...

(*)There are references to byelaws dated March 1999 and the existing byelaws have a 'Table of Previous Byelaws'. Were the byelaws all rewritten and introduced independently (most likely I think) and only then consolidated, or rewritten and consolidated together in 2005? There are HS1 byelaws in the new format dated 2002.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

When the bylaws were written there were no ticket machines and level crossings had pedestrian gates so this situation would not have been foreseen.

This is just plain wrong!

The current byelaws date to (I think) 1999 or 2000 so they aren't *that* old.

2005.

They still hark from an era long bygone. It's a crime not to join a queue, and a crime to pass through a door before someone's left through it.

That's almost exactly right!
There's just one small distinction between what you've written and the actual legal framework which applies to the relations between Kieran V and the Railway Byelaws - for clarity, I'll insert that small distinction in bold into your text:-

It's not a crime not to join a queue, and not a crime to pass through a door before someone's left through it.

Please don''t give inaccurate advice in this section of the forum. That request is not to suggest that I have any objection to criticism of the legal or regulatory framework on the railways, nor to the free expression of opinions, such as a discussion of possible future improvements or revisions, but let's not confuse these with advice in this section where we are required to be accurate. The omission of "not" in your advice isn't helping Kieran V.

 

[furlong]

You all want the railway to be fair

What I want is for the railway to be honest about these things and provide certainty. To state that if you arrive at station X without a ticket and less than Y minutes before the departure of your train you should be prepared to miss it, but conversely if you met that requirement and are still queueing Z minutes before departure you will be allowed to join your train and pay at a later point on your journey. Or (given the disappearance of PERTIS) sell fixed-denomination quick-to-issue 'permits to travel' at ticket barriers in these circumstances. "Hand me a fiver and I'll open the ticket barrier for you and give you a pre-printed £5 permit to travel credit in return showing where and when you began your journey."

What's gone wrong is that, despite all the investment in technology, issuing tickets has got slower! APTIS, PERTIS, QuickFare were pretty fast. The current range of systems can be quite slow in comparison. Even collecting pre-paid tickets involves entering long sequences of characters rather than scanning a barcode.

 

[philthetube]

What I want is for the railway to be honest about these things and provide certainty. To state that if you arrive at station X without a ticket and less than Y minutes before the departure of your train you should be prepared to miss it, but conversely if you met that requirement and are still queueing Z minutes before departure you will be allowed to join your train and pay at a later point on your journey. Or (given the disappearance of PERTIS) sell fixed-denomination quick-to-issue 'permits to travel' at ticket barriers in these circumstances. "Hand me a fiver and I'll open the ticket barrier for you and give you a pre-printed £5 permit to travel credit in return showing where and when you began your journey."

What's gone wrong is that, despite all the investment in technology, issuing tickets has got slower! APTIS, PERTIS, QuickFare were pretty fast. The current range of systems can be quite slow in comparison. Even collecting pre-paid tickets involves entering long sequences of characters rather than scanning a barcode.

Spot on, if not the permit then something else is needed, or even just a cover note to say that tickets were not available in a reasonable time

 

[Clip]

What I want is for the railway to be honest about these things and provide certainty. To state that if you arrive at station X without a ticket and less than Y minutes before the departure of your train you should be prepared to miss it, but conversely if you met that requirement and are still queueing Z minutes before departure you will be allowed to join your train and pay at a later point on your journey. Or (given the disappearance of PERTIS) sell fixed-denomination quick-to-issue 'permits to travel' at ticket barriers in these circumstances. "Hand me a fiver and I'll open the ticket barrier for you and give you a pre-printed £5 permit to travel credit in return showing where and when you began your journey."

What's gone wrong is that, despite all the investment in technology, issuing tickets has got slower! APTIS, PERTIS, QuickFare were pretty fast. The current range of systems can be quite slow in comparison. Even collecting pre-paid tickets involves entering long sequences of characters rather than scanning a barcode.

Actually stating you should be in good time to purchase your ticket or pick up one should be a normal thing to do.

There have been plewnty of threads over the years in this very section where ple have written that they got to the station as the train was pulling in and they just got on and all of the advice has been, from very same posters on the thread, that sorry you must queue up for a ticket.

Now what is the difference here that made posters say different or try and encourage them to lie about it?

You yourself must surely know,from being in the business as you claim,that if you give people a chance to bunk the train then large swathes of people will do just that and that is why we have rules that clearly estate you must purchase a ticket where facilities are available before you travel.

I struggle to understand why people don't understand this and are trying to he the op off on some random technicality of a websaite

 

[miami]

Regardless of the accessibility of the other platform at Prees (a request only stop with many non-stop trains going through), assuming the TVM is like that of Nantwich further up the line, it would not accept cash.

If the OP wanted to pay cash for his ticket, rather than using a card, then it's clear that there were no ticketing facilities available.

I'm surprised the guard didn't bother to travel up the (1/2/3) car train in the 7 minutes he has.

 

[headshot119]

As for the guard not bothering, possible his(her) ticket machine was not functioning, or they got caught up with another passenger. 7 minutes isn't a lot of time if you get one complex transaction.

 

[6Gman]

As for the guard not bothering, possible his(her) ticket machine was not functioning, or they got caught up with another passenger. 7 minutes isn't a lot of time if you get one complex transaction.

And of course it's less than 7 minutes by the time he's ensured safe and correct despatch from Prees.

 

[Clip]

Regardless of the accessibility of the other platform at Prees (a request only stop with many non-stop trains going through), assuming the TVM is like that of Nantwich further up the line, it would not accept cash.

If the OP wanted to pay cash for his ticket, rather than using a card, then it's clear that there were no ticketing facilities available.

I'm surprised the guard didn't bother to travel up the (1/2/3) car train in the 7 minutes he has.

I think you should stop speculating like others on this thread.

 

[island]

Regardless of the accessibility of the other platform at Prees (a request only stop with many non-stop trains going through), assuming the TVM is like that of Nantwich further up the line, it would not accept cash.

If the OP wanted to pay cash for his ticket, rather than using a card, then it's clear that there were no ticketing facilities available.

I'm surprised the guard didn't bother to travel up the (1/2/3) car train in the 7 minutes he has.

I think that's further muddying the waters and is unlikely to assist the OP. The question of whether a passenger wishing to pay by cash but possessed of a card that he could use is obliged to use a card-only TVM has been done to death and no consensus has been reached.

 

[47802]

I was in a similar situation at Newark Castle earlier this week, I arrived at Newark Castle station with about 6 mins to spare and went straight to the Lincoln bound platform and found there was a train due in 6 mins and a fair wait for the next one. Then I looked for ticket facilities and found that the only ticket machine was on the other platform along with what was described as a Travel Centre, I then realised there was no foot bridge between the 2 platforms and the only access was via the level crossing, and that the chances of me being to get a ticket before the level crossing gates closed were not going to be great.

So I elected to try and buy a ticket on the train which in the event I was able to do without any problems.

It does seem to me that stations such as Newark and the OP should have ticket machines on both platforms as a minimum, and frankly I think its time many TOC's stopped trying to treat many customers as criminals and just sell them a ticket unless they have strong evidence to suggest they are serious fare dodgers. As suggested some kind of authority to travel ticket would be good for people in a hurry or where there required ticket doesn't appear to be available from a ticket machine.

 

[najaB]

I was in a similar situation at Newark Castle earlier this week...

I agree that Newark Castle is busy enough to deserve two ticket machines. Prees, not so much - it's a request stop after all.

It might actually make more sense to remove the TVM entirely, or make it collection-only.

 

[DasLunatic]

As suggested some kind of authority to travel ticket would be good for people in a hurry or where there required ticket doesn't appear to be available from a ticket machine.

It already exists - it's called PERTIS...

 

[cjmillsnun]

It already exists - it's called PERTIS...

Not available at stations with a TVM.

PERTIS would be ideal at Prees though as the TVM cannot really be justified.

 

[Clip]

Not available at stations with a TVM.

Not quite true as both the ruislips have both unless its changed of late plus a few SE stations used to have both

 

[philthetube]

What is being suggested is that if someone arrives at a station and is unable to buy a ticket in a reasonable time for any reason which is not their own fault, staff ought to be able to supply a permit to travel to allow a passenger to board a train and then pay for their journey.

 

[najaB]

What is being suggested is that if someone arrives at a station and is unable to buy a ticket in a reasonable time for any reason which is not their own fault, staff ought to be able to supply a permit to travel to allow a passenger to board a train and then pay for their journey.

A good idea, any chance you could provide a bit more of a definition for the two terms I've highlighted above?

 

[Llanigraham]

What is being suggested is that if someone arrives at a station and is unable to buy a ticket in a reasonable time for any reason which is not their own fault, staff ought to be able to supply a permit to travel to allow a passenger to board a train and then pay for their journey.

What staff?
The station in question is unmanned.

 

[philthetube]

A good idea, any chance you could provide a bit more of a definition for the two terms I've highlighted above?

Not their own fault does not need defining, time, ten minutes is loads bur even that seems excessive for a local journey, however if a person arrives at a station ten mins before departure with the means to pay and cannot buy a ticket for any reason for which they are responsible then they should be allowed to travel and pay at the next opportunity.

It is much better not to create a list of reasons for not being able to purchase a ticket, rules create loopholes and arguments.

 

[najaB]

Not their own fault does not need defining...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. How would you classify these reasons, all of which I've been given by people who were late (though not for trains):

• My alarm clock didn't go off
• My taxi didn't show up
• The queue in the bank/supermarket/shop was really slow
• I had ordered my lunch but it took *ages* to come
• My bus broke down
• I forgot this was the weekend that the clocks go forwards
• Google maps gave me the wrong route

The list of 'not my fault' answers goes on and on.

 

[rs101]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. How would you classify these reasons, all of which I've been given by people who were late (though not for trains):

• My alarm clock didn't go off
• My taxi didn't show up
• The queue in the bank/supermarket/shop was really slow
• I had ordered my lunch but it took *ages* to come
• My bus broke down
• I forgot this was the weekend that the clocks go forwards
• Google maps gave me the wrong route

The list of 'not my fault' answers goes on and on.

I don't think anyone would consider those to be ' not their own fault' unless they were being deliberately obtuse as they're all events which occur outside the station.

A more reasonable list would be :-

1. No working machine and no ticket office open.
2. Machine not able to accept legitimate payment method ( eg want to use cash and machine is card only).
3. Unable to purchase a ticket in a defined time. This time should be clearly stated both at the station and on all route planners - a simple message of 'allow up to x minutes' to purchase a ticket' would be sufficient. Doesn't matter if this is because of a queue at the machine or ticket office - it's up to the operator to provide facilities to be able to retail tickets in the time they advertise.
4. Ticket office not open during advertised hours of operation and unable to make appropriate purchase from machine.

The latter point may be contentious, but is a real world situation which I narrowly avoided. Office was closed for the day, even though it was supposed to be open for another 5 hours and I wanted to renew my network railcars, then purchase a travel card. I tweeted AGA a picture of the handwritten sign showing the office was closed and it suddenly reopened 5 minutes later...

 

[najaB]

I don't think anyone would consider those to be ' not their own fault' unless they were being deliberately obtuse as they're all events which occur outside the station.

Apologies. I was reading philthetube's post incorrectly. I was taking the 'not their fault' to refer to arriving at the station without enough time to purchase a ticket, rather than the inability to purchase when at the station.

Please ignore my previous three posts.