Wales & Borders Franchise

[a good off]

I'm a regular user of the North & West route and the trains are nearly always overcrowded. I very rarely get a seat north of Newport and Hereford with a two or three car 175.

Once the Anglia Mk3's and DVT's come off lease, they should be put through a Chiltern style refurb with retention tanks and sent to work the Holyheads and Manchesters using spare class 67s. Refurbished hauled sets are the cheapest way to address the overcrowding, luggage and bike issues on this route as it saves buying new trains and avoids scrapping perfectly decent coaches that would be suitable for this line and the long distance journeys involved.

 

[craigybagel]

The best fit for the cross border services is within the Wales and Borders franchise, the way things are now. Carving the franchise up into Wales only services and shoehorning the other services into whatever English franchise is nearby would be a pointless waste of time and money, when the franchise needs help RIGHT NOW. The only people who think it'll do any good are mandarins in Cardiff Bay who don't know a thing about how to run a transport service but think that everything and everyone should run to Cardiff.

Fine, let the WG have a say on the franchise, but the best cure for its current issues is more stock RIGHT NOW, not chaos whilst the current franchise is ripped into pieces followed by anger as passengers are forced to change at Shrewsbury/Chester since passenger demands don't match up to political dreams.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a regular user of the North & West route and the trains are nearly always overcrowded. I very rarely get a seat north of Newport and Hereford with a two or three car 175

What services are you travelling on? Whilst I've agreed previously that the franchise needs extra stock asap, under normal circumstances it's very rare for people to be standing on the marches. By normal circumstances, I mean the right stock allocations (almost all of the services booked for 2 cars are quiet enough to cope with them) on the day, and no special events on. When services on that get line get extremely busy,its normally due to stock shortages shrinking certain services, or special events taking place. The only exception to that are the school services in and out of Hereford, but even they they normally only have people standing between Leominster.

Things are bad I know, and my definition of "normal circumstances" doesn't happen as often as it should, which is why more stock is needed urgently, but I don't believe that you"very rarely" get a seat.

 

[northwichcat]

The best fit for the cross border services is within the Wales and Borders franchise, the way things are now. Carving the franchise up into Wales only services and shoehorning the other services into whatever English franchise is nearby would be a pointless waste of time and money, when the franchise needs help RIGHT NOW. The only people who think it'll do any good are mandarins in Cardiff Bay who don't know a thing about how to run a transport service but think that everything and everyone should run to Cardiff.

Fine, let the WG have a say on the franchise, but the best cure for its current issues is more stock RIGHT NOW, not chaos whilst the current franchise is ripped into pieces followed by anger as passengers are forced to change at Shrewsbury/Chester since passenger demands don't match up to political dreams.

Creating an all Wales franchise let by the Welsh Assembly does not have to mean any routes have to split up. Virgin, GWR and XC operate services in Wales now - there is no reason why those operators can't operate more cross-border services or why another franchise can't include places in Wales in it's operating area.

Maybe the best idea is to do something similar to the next LM franchise, so there is a Welsh local business unit and a regional business unit with the Welsh Assembly having a lot of control over the local business unit but having to work with their English neighbours on the regional business unit?

 

[Llanigraham]

Problem is its not just along the borders as its things like company that manages Chester station, a service that runs to Birmingham International, the main Manchester to Chester service and most trains in Shropshire.

Westminster is accountable to the Welsh electorate hence why they send MPs there but the Welsh Assembly isn't accountable to the electorate in England. Devolving the Wales and Border franchise would in effect mean that the people of Telford having the way the majority of the trains to the town are run largely decided by an authority that they don't elect and isn't accountable to them.

Funny, but I seem to see plenty of non-ATW trains leaving Shrewsbury towards the West Midlands!
What do you propose? That no ATW trains travel east of the border that they all us travellers on the Cambrian have to change, or that none of the ATW trains stop in until they get to Birmingham?

I really don't think you understand.

 

[northwichcat]

Funny, but I seem to see plenty of non-ATW trains leaving Shrewsbury towards the West Midlands!
What do you propose? That no ATW trains travel east of the border that they all us travellers on the Cambrian have to change, or that none of the ATW trains stop in until they get to Birmingham?

I really don't think you understand.

Do you understand the problem in England? Rail North has control over the new Northern and TPE franchises, an equivalent Midlands body will have control over the new LM franchise. However, both bodies are powerless to intervene in the ATW fiasco which sees the cross-border routes - some of which are making a profit - being hampered by being in the same franchise as many loss making branch lines in Wales.

 

[greatkingrat]

I think you'll find there's quite a few people with that name in Wales! Nothing at all to indicate it's the ex MP.

Looks like it is the ex-MP.

Sian James, previously Director of Welsh Women’s Aid and MP for Swansea East, Sian now works part-time for Abellio Trains as well as working with the Howard League for Penal Reform and other organisations to promote the Corston approach for women in conflict with the law in Wales.

http://www.welshwomensaid.org.uk/in...w-trustees&catid=35:news&Itemid=168&Itemid=53

 

[gareth950]

Do you understand the problem in England? Rail North has control over the new Northern and TPE franchises, an equivalent Midlands body will have control over the new LM franchise. However, both bodies are powerless to intervene in the ATW fiasco which sees the cross-border routes - some of which are making a profit - being hampered by being in the same franchise as many loss making branch lines in Wales.

The only government body that can intervene in the ATW fiasco right now is the DFT as currently it is their responsibility, but the DFT is happy to sit and and do nothing.
Whilst I enjoy the discussion and debate on this forum, I suggest the best course of action for people to take regarding this situation is to write to their MP in the hope the matter can be raised in Parliament.
Otherwise, all we can do on this forum is complain and speculate on future rolling stock etc. At least by writing to your MP you may get answers, or at least an acknowledgement of the problems.

 

[Llanigraham]

Do you understand the problem in England? Rail North has control over the new Northern and TPE franchises, an equivalent Midlands body will have control over the new LM franchise. However, both bodies are powerless to intervene in the ATW fiasco which sees the cross-border routes - some of which are making a profit - being hampered by being in the same franchise as many loss making branch lines in Wales.

So what do you suggest we do? Stop all ATW trains at the Border and make us change to english ones? Sounds very much like the current anti-Welsh cr@p that is coming out of Westminster!

Everyone is very good at criticising the current set up but no-one has yet suggested a practical and workable solution.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Looks like it is the ex-MP.



http://www.welshwomensaid.org.uk/in...w-trustees&catid=35:news&Itemid=168&Itemid=53

Thanks it's a groan moment as Abeilios intent is clear they want to put a bid that ties in with Welsh Labour / Welsh Government thinking. I've no idea what her views knowledge on rail is but I doubt she's been hired as an expert on Welsh Railways!

Looks like it's brand new rolling stock for the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service and Valley lines electrification with no thought beyond that......

She'll go down like a fart in spacesuits in the Mraches!

 

[Dai Corner]

......

Everyone is very good at criticising the current set up but no-one has yet suggested a practical and workable solution.

How about cross border services being specified by the DfT and run by the relevant English TOC but with WG being a party to the specifications and negotiations and paying their share of any subsidy / receiving their share of any premium?

Services wholly within Wales could be franchised separately if WG wanted that for ideological reasons but in my view would be better dealt with as add-ons to the main franchises.

You've probably guessed I'm not a fan of Welshness for its own sake!

 

[craigybagel]

Creating an all Wales franchise let by the Welsh Assembly does not have to mean any routes have to split up. Virgin, GWR and XC operate services in Wales now - there is no reason why those operators can't operate more cross-border services or why another franchise can't include places in Wales in it's operating area.

Indeed, but if you leave the cross border services then you're basically left with the franchise as is, which is no bad thing, but isn't the all Wales franchise that some people seem to desire.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Funny, but I seem to see plenty of non-ATW trains leaving Shrewsbury towards the West Midlands!
What do you propose? That no ATW trains travel east of the border that they all us travellers on the Cambrian have to change, or that none of the ATW trains stop in until they get to Birmingham?

I really don't think you understand.

Look what's happened on the Chester to Manchester and Shrewsbury to Birmingham corridors other English based operators running more trains LM adding another semi fast to Shrewsbury and the Northern Connect service to Chester I'm sure that there not coincidence as ATW ( and WG )then is not going to be the dominant operator from the county towns of Cheshire and Shropshire into their nearest city. It leaves Crewe to Hereford , the Cheshire bit of the Bidston line and Gobowen as the only bits of The English network that will be "controlled" from Cardifff.

 

[northwichcat]

So what do you suggest we do? Stop all ATW trains at the Border and make us change to english ones? Sounds very much like the current anti-Welsh cr@p that is coming out of Westminster!

Everyone is very good at criticising the current set up but no-one has yet suggested a practical and workable solution.

As I've already said in an earlier post the two possible solutions which will allow the Welsh Assembly to have more power without causing much bigger problems than there already are:
1. Transfer the entire cross-border services to other franchises. For instance, Virgin running Birmingham to Holyhead instead of ATW.
2. Split the next franchise in to two business units, with there being cross-border working on the regional business unit and the Welsh Assembly having control over the local line unit.

But no you don't bother to read that, you just want the Welsh Assembly to have full control on any service which serves Wales even just one station in Wales, which is totally unworkable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look what's happened on the Chester to Manchester and Shrewsbury to Birmingham corridors other English based operators running more trains LM adding another semi fast to Shrewsbury and the Northern Connect service to Chester I'm sure that there not coincidence as ATW ( and WG )then is not going to be the dominant operator from the county towns of Cheshire and Shropshire into their nearest city. It leaves Crewe to Hereford , the Cheshire bit of the Bidston line and Gobowen as the only bits of The English network that will be "controlled" from Cardifff.

ATW will continue to run peak time extras between Chester and Manchester with Northern Connect services being diverted to Ellesmere Port at those times. So anyone living in Chester working normal office hours in Warrington or Manchester will continue to use the service provided by the Wales & Borders franchise to get them to and from work every day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATW will continue to run peak time extras between Chester and Manchester with Northern Connect services being diverted to Ellesmere Port at those times. So anyone living in Chester working normal office hours in Warrington or Manchester will continue to use the service provided by the Wales & Borders franchise to get them to and from work every day.

That seems a very hotch-potch solution. Would it not make more sense for those services to be portion-worked by Northern?

 

[Gareth Marston]

As I've already said in an earlier post the two possible solutions which will allow the Welsh Assembly to have more power without causing much bigger problems than there already are:
1. Transfer the entire cross-border services to other franchises. For instance, Virgin running Birmingham to Holyhead instead of ATW.
2. Split the next franchise in to two business units, with there being cross-border working on the regional business unit and the Welsh Assembly having control over the local line unit.

But no you don't bother to read that, you just want the Welsh Assembly to have full control on any service which serves Wales even just one station in Wales, which is totally unworkable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW will continue to run peak time extras between Chester and Manchester with Northern Connect services being diverted to Ellesmere Port at those times. So anyone living in Chester working normal office hours in Warrington or Manchester will continue to use the service provided by the Wales & Borders franchise to get them to and from work every day.

It's the principal/ appearance of an English operator that's key to the thinking not the detail. The average councillor/MP will not have any knowledge but will see services from their town have an English operator.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think you'll find there's quite a few people with that name in Wales! Nothing at all to indicate it's the ex MP.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The rolling stock cascades will be clearer after the next couple of franchises are let. I can't see SWT running ex BR DMU's into Waterloo for much longer. Ok wales and Borders are near the back but Greater Anglia has freed up a lot of potential. I can see some 156/158's coming in and being used on valley lines until electrification to kill off pacers and then being cascaded out to rural Wales once the valleys wires are up.

Can't see 156's coming and 158s are only permitted to run on the Rhymney Valley route withing the Valleys themselves. They were not liked when they worked on the Rhymney line due to the tight schedules, frequent stops not suitable for the slow door opening/closure process.

 

[thenorthern]

In just the same way as the people of Watford have the majority of the trains to the town (on two lines plus a couple of bus routes) largely decided by an authority that they don't elect and isn't accountable to them.

And nobody's died...

True although that is only 2 stations on one line similar to the Scotrail service that crosses the border, with Arriva Trains Wales its more than 30 stations of several lines.

Funny, but I seem to see plenty of non-ATW trains leaving Shrewsbury towards the West Midlands!
What do you propose? That no ATW trains travel east of the border that they all us travellers on the Cambrian have to change, or that none of the ATW trains stop in until they get to Birmingham?

I really don't think you understand.

I personally would leave the letting of the franchise to Westminster, I am aware of the services east of Shrewsbury that are operated by London Midland and Virgin Trains but if you think about it the new system will mean that many places such as Whitchurch and most other towns in Shropshire will have no elected representation to the body who will decide who runs the trains where they live.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Can't see 156's coming and 158s are only permitted to run on the Rhymney Valley route withing the Valleys themselves. They were not liked when they worked on the Rhymney line due to the tight schedules, frequent stops not suitable for the slow door opening/closure process.

I know it will be a fudge but that's how it's panning out. Wales and Waet ran Manchester Piccadilt to Pontypridd and Barry diagrams with 158's.

 

[Class 170101]

Can't see 156's coming and 158s are only permitted to run on the Rhymney Valley route withing the Valleys themselves. They were not liked when they worked on the Rhymney line due to the tight schedules, frequent stops not suitable for the slow door opening/closure process.

I would suggest 156s are more suitable than 158s and that if DDA is enforced raher than a derogation achieved it is a plausible option to keep services running.

 

[Llanigraham]

As I've already said in an earlier post the two possible solutions which will allow the Welsh Assembly to have more power without causing much bigger problems than there already are:
1. Transfer the entire cross-border services to other franchises. For instance, Virgin running Birmingham to Holyhead instead of ATW.
2. Split the next franchise in to two business units, with there being cross-border working on the regional business unit and the Welsh Assembly having control over the local line unit.

1/ Cross Border services, like the whole Cambrian to Birmingham International, The Heart of Wales, all of North Wales services, plus South Wales to Manchester or Gloucester. I don't think you've thought that one through, do you?
2/ See above.

But no you don't bother to read that, you just want the Welsh Assembly to have full control on any service which serves Wales even just one station in Wales, which is totally unworkable.

I shall ignore the insults!
I am still waiting for someone to come up with a better system than we have now, but so far no-one has done so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I personally would leave the letting of the franchise to Westminster, I am aware of the services east of Shrewsbury that are operated by London Midland and Virgin Trains but if you think about it the new system will mean that many places such as Whitchurch and most other towns in Shropshire will have no elected representation to the body who will decide who runs the trains where they live.

So what?
Do you really think that the majority of passengers give a fig about who the operator is? All they want to know is that their trains are roughly on time and clean!

 

[transmanche]

True although that is only 2 stations on one line similar to the Scotrail service that crosses the border, with Arriva Trains Wales its more than 30 stations of several lines.

It's 7tph, then there's the Buckinghamshire folk too. Or those in Essex who rely on the Central line.

The fact is transport doesn't fall neatly within administrative boundaries. Someone will always have their transport controlled by an organisation which they can't influence.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current franchise was let by DfT (well, the SRA) and then devolved to the WG to manage.
I think the WG has done quite well with the hand it was given, and I wouldn't accuse it of significant bias towards Welsh services.
The Shrewsbury-Birmingham services have increased capacity for instance.
Money has been spent at Chester station, and the investment in the Chester-Saltney redoubling will benefit both sides of the border.
Services have also been extended to Birmingham and Manchester airports.
The Halton Curve to/from Liverpool will also benefit all parties.

For the next franchise, I just want to feel that the WG will support all W&B routes and not just those in Wales.
I still think it was a crass mistake to brand ATW as "Welsh".
It's no more Welsh that the other cross-border operators (Virgin, GWR, XC), all of which have to serve Welsh and English users equally.
Historically, the W&B area was served by the LNWR and GWR, sometimes jointly, neither of which could be described as "Welsh".
Even the Cambrian was based in Oswestry.
But the turf wars, like we have got on the Welsh NHS, have to stop.
I'd just like to know who is going to let the next franchise, and what the prospectus/specification is (agreed between DfT and WG).
The branding of the trains, and who manages the franchise, is less important.

 

[northwichcat]

1/ Cross Border services, like the whole Cambrian to Birmingham International, The Heart of Wales, all of North Wales services, plus South Wales to Manchester or Gloucester. I don't think you've thought that one through, do you?
2/ See above.

Conwy Valley isn't in North Wales?

2 would involve the Welsh Assembly working with Rail North and WMCA so you've proved again you don't understand the issues with the franchise affecting England. If 2 is unworkable then the next franchise must be specified by Westminster not Cardiff.

do you really think that the majority of passengers give a fig about who the operator is? All they want to know is that their trains are roughly on time and clean!

So the Welsh don't care about Cardiff having a say in the new franchise as long as the trains are on time and clean? Problem sorted then Westminster will write the specification and they'll be a 20% increase in journey times. Oh and if the name doesn't matter how about Marches Railways?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

1/ Cross Border services, like the whole Cambrian to Birmingham International, The Heart of Wales, all of North Wales services, plus South Wales to Manchester or Gloucester. I don't think you've thought that one through, do you?
2/ See above.


I shall ignore the insults!
I am still waiting for someone to come up with a better system than we have now, but so far no-one has done so.

So how would you solve the problem of the Welsh Government being resposable for running services that have calls in Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Shropshire and Chesire but having no accountability to the people who use those services? What if the Welsh Government decided that it wanted to speed up services by having some services skip calling at places like Ludlow and Leominster, without some kind of input from the Borders councils into the franchise there would be nothing that the people who live un those areas could do about it if the franchise is devolved to the Welsh government.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So how would you solve the problem of the Welsh Government being resposable for running services that have calls in Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Shropshire and Chesire but having no accountability to the people who use those services? What if the Welsh Government decided that it wanted to speed up services by having some services skip calling at places like Ludlow and Leominster, without some kind of input from the Borders councils into the franchise there would be nothing that the people who live un those areas could do about it if the franchise is devolved to the Welsh government.

So the Welsh Government has a policy of deliberately withdrawing rail services in England? And the evidence?

 

[transmanche]

So how would you solve the problem of the Welsh Government being resposable for running services that have calls in Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Shropshire and Chesire but having no accountability to the people who use those services?

I'd solve it in the same way that the people of Cheshire already have a local railway service which is controlled by an organisation that has no accountability to the people who use the services.

I think that you're looking for a problem where there is none to be found.

 

[PHILIPE]

The current franchise was let by DfT (well, the SRA) and then devolved to the WG to manage.
I think the WG has done quite well with the hand it was given, and I wouldn't accuse it of significant bias towards Welsh services.
The Shrewsbury-Birmingham services have increased capacity for instance.
Money has been spent at Chester station, and the investment in the Chester-Saltney redoubling will benefit both sides of the border.
Services have also been extended to Birmingham and Manchester airports.
The Halton Curve to/from Liverpool will also benefit all parties.

For the next franchise, I just want to feel that the WG will support all W&B routes and not just those in Wales.
I still think it was a crass mistake to brand ATW as "Welsh".
It's no more Welsh that the other cross-border operators (Virgin, GWR, XC), all of which have to serve Welsh and English users equally.
Historically, the W&B area was served by the LNWR and GWR, sometimes jointly, neither of which could be described as "Welsh".
Even the Cambrian was based in Oswestry.
But the turf wars, like we have got on the Welsh NHS, have to stop.
I'd just like to know who is going to let the next franchise, and what the prospectus/specification is (agreed between DfT and WG).
The branding of the trains, and who manages the franchise, is less important.

The Welsh Government paid for major improvements at Shrewsbury but, I fear, to suit themselves because they were largely to facilitate improvements to Cambrian services.

 

[gareth950]

The current franchise was let by DfT (well, the SRA) and then devolved to the WG to manage.
I think the WG has done quite well with the hand it was given, and I wouldn't accuse it of significant bias towards Welsh services.
The Shrewsbury-Birmingham services have increased capacity for instance.
Money has been spent at Chester station, and the investment in the Chester-Saltney redoubling will benefit both sides of the border.
Services have also been extended to Birmingham and Manchester airports.
The Halton Curve to/from Liverpool will also benefit all parties.

For the next franchise, I just want to feel that the WG will support all W&B routes and not just those in Wales.
I still think it was a crass mistake to brand ATW as "Welsh".
It's no more Welsh that the other cross-border operators (Virgin, GWR, XC), all of which have to serve Welsh and English users equally.
Historically, the W&B area was served by the LNWR and GWR, sometimes jointly, neither of which could be described as "Welsh".
Even the Cambrian was based in Oswestry.
But the turf wars, like we have got on the Welsh NHS, have to stop.
I'd just like to know who is going to let the next franchise, and what the prospectus/specification is (agreed between DfT and WG).
The branding of the trains, and who manages the franchise, is less important.

Yes the turf wars do have to stop, but judging by the tone of this thread, will they? It's not in the UK govt's interests for them to stop.

For those posting that the W&B franchise should be totally let by Westminster, that's not going to happen. The wheels are already in motion - companies have been bidding for the South Wales Metro contract that will be integrated into the W&B franchise, and this process is being handled by the WG's new transport body 'Transport for Wales'.

The turf wars could also be called political point scoring from the Conservatives who have never supported devolution. Andrew RT Davies even said recently that the WG should be entirely scrapped! (or words to that effect)
This nonsense of transferring cross border services could only serve one purpose - to leave Wales with a basket case franchise so come the 2020 election the Tories can say "look how much money the railways are losing in Wales with Labour in charge there", just like they were doing in the last 2 elections with the NHS. It's pathetic.

Coincidentally, the next reading of the Wales Bill is due in Parliament this week.
Let's see if it can actually make progress.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For those posting that the W&B franchise should be totally let by Westminster, that's not going to happen. The wheels are already in motion - companies have been bidding for the South Wales Metro contract that will be integrated into the W&B franchise, and this process is being handled by the WG's new transport body 'Transport for Wales'.

I wish I could be persuaded that this "contract" has any substance.
The fact that we are not allowed to see the ITT speaks volumes.
I can't see it being more than a frame agreement for consultancy to WG.

 

[pdeaves]

It's 7tph, then there's the Buckinghamshire folk too. Or those in Essex who rely on the Central line.

For interest's sake, am I correct in thinking that the bits of London Underground services mentioned are effectively contracted by the appropriate authority?