GEML franchise 2016

[F Great Eastern]

They could use different branding to help with route differentiation, thus providing a helpful shortcut for passengers wondering which train to get, but I guess that sounds far too sensible.

Abellio East Anglia (London - Norwich and Branches)
Abellio West Anglia (London - Cambridge and Branches)
Abellio Regional (The Branches across the Fens)

One Great Eastern
One West Anglia
One Anglia

Already been done, stupid them, stupid now.

Don't see any reason to change the name.

 

[387star]

I went on the greater anglia network for the first time ever today

I was pretty impressed actually

The 360 I got from stratford to colchester had new seat covers which seemed surprisingly soft at least in relation to the 387s although I think south west trains also have softer seats. I think it ran doo mode to colchester but then a guard seemed to get on to clacton?

However Strange still seeing fge pink over ten years after that companies demise!

The mk3 I sampled on the way back was like travelling in a time warp. I was very impressed! I had forgotton how positively luxurious these trains are compared to a lot of the newer type. Incredibly quiet with large windows and a good view down the carriage . First class looked very plush ! A buffet car too... I forget what these are being replaced with. The wood effect pannelling fitted makes me wonder if aga were looking to reconnect with a bygone era of rail travel; the glory years if you will. The carpet shows the stains though! But overall my impression of aga was very good

Questions:

Why was the journey so slow between stratford and shenfield? Never more than about 30-40mph both coming and back! Is it always this slow?

I saw some 357s at stratford. How do they come over from the fenchurch street line... Where is the junction ?

Shenfield had a very old wagon sitting in the siding? Any history there?

Why all the old nse clocks still intact? Quite surprising

I saw a 317/8 at romford stiol in nx livery. Why have london overground lef these sub class in the old livery? Even 321s got a relivery for their short term use

 

[dk1]

I went on the greater anglia network for the first time ever today

I was pretty impressed actuallyQuestions:

Why was the journey so slow between stratford and shenfield? Never more than about 30-40mph both coming and back! Is it always this slow?

I saw some 357s at stratford. How do they come over from the fenchurch street line... Where is the junction ?

Shenfield had a very old wagon sitting in the siding? Any history there?

Glad you where happy with your experience. We do try.

Due to CrossRail Works the line to Shenfield is a 2-track railway on Sundays & has been for over a year now. Even though slow you would normally be on time & this is the only was we can mix IC, Outer-Suburban & Metro to achieve 9 trains an hour each-way.

The c2c trains come in at Forest Gate Jcn. Not only for diversion if Fenchurch St is closed but also to serve Stratford thanks to the Westfield Shopping Centre & QE Olympic Park (West Ham).

That Brake Van has been there donkeys. No cheap way to remove it so its been converted into buffer stops.

 

[samuelmorris]

- Yes the 360s have had new seat covers recently, doesn't alter how firm the seats are - agree that they're firm but less so than 387/700 seats.
- Slow speed between Stratford and Shenfield is because you're travelling on a Sunday, the mainline shares the metro tracks for some/all of that section so services often have to run behind the TfL stopping services.
- 357s operate to Liverpool Street at weekends only, they come onto the GEML via Forest Gate Junction, from Barking, passing Woodgrange Park
- The ancient brake van, no idea how long it's been there, remember it from my childhood
- NSE clocks only recently replaced with the LED dot matrix signage in the past months, presumably nobody's got round to taking the old ones away
- 317/8s are still shabby inside and out. There were availability issues with the 317/7s when they came back on lease so perhaps they wanted to leave cosmetic maintenance until fleet reliability improved.

 

[colchesterken]

I have to agree with 387 The worry for me is that all the shiny new trains will have to be paid for. AGA will have to pay leasing costs whoever pays up front, fares must go up!

I thing the refurbd Mk 3 s are as good as anything anyware could they not put a driving cab and guards desk in the end of a mk3 after all the freight guards traveled in the back of locos in the early years of fitted freights. they could call them DBSO s

I think our stock could be refreshed at not too much costs I got a dusty bin replacement for LHCS the other night. the driver thrashed it the motors were flat out but it kept inter- city time to the second at Colch They still work why get rid of them

You were unlucky they normally do 80 mph from Maryland to Shenfield.
They need to upgrade the bit to Stratford and increase the speed to 100 to Shenfield then 110 to Colch. Look how you can do 50 miles on GWML or west or East coast line

 

[samuelmorris]

This is the point though - the rolling stock operating companies pay for the trains, the train operators only pay the leases - as I understand it, the lease prices are very expensive for the existing rolling stock as it is (especially given its age and actual net value) so theoretically the cost doesn't change. The real worry is the scope of deployment - replacing every single train on a network is not a quick job - many programs with far more limited scope have taken far longer than the 20 months this is planned for - I think it'll still happen, but whether to the same extent at the same rate is another matter.

 

[dk1]

I thing the refurbd Mk 3 s are as good as anything anyware could they not put a driving cab and guards desk in the end of a mk3 after all the freight guards traveled in the back of locos in the early years of fitted freights. they could call them DBSO s

You were unlucky they normally do 80 mph from Maryland to Shenfield.
They need to upgrade the bit to Stratford and increase the speed to 100 to Shenfield then 110 to Colch. Look how you can do 50 miles on GWML or west or East coast line

The cost of converting/getting approval for such a small fleet would be horrendous & lets not forget they are ancient & we need to get rid sooner rather than later regardless of how high we load them in esteem & refer to them as the best stock ever built.


We do 90mph constantly Maryland to Shenfield & have done for years.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes in my experience peak time it's usually between 75 and 90 down that section - off-peak more often closer to 90.

 

[306024]

The Shenfield Shark (the name for that type of brake van) has been there since the 1990s. Got a hot axle box while working in a possession on the Southend line. It was supposed to be removed in 2012 but that never happened.

A wheel skate was put under the offending axle for a while earlier this year but that was then removed too. One idea was to get a tamper to haul it in a possession down to Romford. Rumoured to be going to the Epping and Ongar Railway a while ago but it still remains at Shenfield.

 

[SPADTrap]

The Shenfield Shark (the name for that type of brake van) has been there since the 1990s. Got a hot axle box while working in a possession on the Southend line. It was supposed to be removed in 2012 but that never happened.

A wheel skate was put under the offending axle for a while earlier this year but that was then removed too. One idea was to get a tamper to haul it in a possession down to Romford. Rumoured to be going to the Epping and Ongar Railway a while ago but it still remains at Shenfield.

Last I heard was they were worried it would fall apart on removal! Isn't the space needed for a new thunderbird?

 

[Alfie1014]

See that the current edition of Today's Railways UK confirmed that the new Aventras will be two different car lengths. The 5 cars will be 22m and the 10 cars 24m. Whilst this makes the most of train lengths will it mean no swapping of vehicles between long and short sets? Suggests that the 10 cars will be high capacity PIXC busters. And will the 24m vehicle length (and possibly the 22m too) be too/long for the curve(s) in and out of Colchester Town?

 

[LAX54]

See that the current edition of Today's Railways UK confirmed that the new Aventras will be two different car lengths. The 5 cars will be 22m and the 10 cars 24m. Whilst this makes the most of train lengths will it mean no swapping of vehicles between long and short sets? Suggests that the 10 cars will be high capacity PIXC busters. And will the 24m vehicle length (and possibly the 22m too) be too/long for the curve(s) in and out of Colchester Town?

Based on other new stock that gets brought in, would not be surprised if that has not even been looked at, and isn't the Manningtree curve quite tight too ?
153's still have restrictions at Colchester and Manningtree after all this time !

 

[Rick1984]

The Shenfield Shark (the name for that type of brake van) has been there since the 1990s. Got a hot axle box while working in a possession on the Southend line. It was supposed to be removed in 2012 but that never happened.

A wheel skate was put under the offending axle for a while earlier this year but that was then removed too. One idea was to get a tamper to haul it in a possession down to Romford. Rumoured to be going to the Epping and Ongar Railway a while ago but it still remains at Shenfield.

Passed him earlier today!

 

[Wivenswold]

See that the current edition of Today's Railways UK confirmed that the new Aventras will be two different car lengths. The 5 cars will be 22m and the 10 cars 24m. Whilst this makes the most of train lengths will it mean no swapping of vehicles between long and short sets? Suggests that the 10 cars will be high capacity PIXC busters. And will the 24m vehicle length (and possibly the 22m too) be too/long for the curve(s) in and out of Colchester Town?

I hadn't thought about Hythe curve but I think Colchester Town peaks to London (if they continue) will suffice with 2 x 5 sets. It will also get additional Stadlers for the Sudbury services which will start from there.

I think you're right about the 22 x 10 car units.

I'll be very surprised if the 10 car Aventras aren't 2+2 seating with larger 1st class areas for the Clacton, Harwich and Ipswich to London peaks and also Norwich stoppers. Maybe even one of the Chelmsford starters too. Not sure whether they'll be used on the Cambridge line though.

I recall a poster on here saying there are 12 x 12 car EMU sets used per peak at the moment. Add in that Norwich to London pvr is 12 IC sets which are being replaced by 10 Stadlers 12 car units so it seems pretty obvious that they will share Norwich duties with the 10 car Aventras. Very interested to see how it all works out.

 

[Alfie1014]

I recall a poster on here saying there are 12 x 12 car EMU sets used per peak at the moment. Add in that Norwich to London pvr is 12 IC sets which are being replaced by 10 Stadlers 12 car units so it seems pretty obvious that they will share Norwich duties with the 10 car Aventras. Very interested to see how it all works out.

A bit more than that, a quick canter through the Dec15 diagrams, (I haven't got access to a more up to date set), show 3 x 12 car (379) on the Cambridge side and no less than 25 x 12 car (321 or 360) on the GE in the morning peaks. So in total 28 today without taking account of any growth in the new franchise.

 

[coppercapped]

I have to agree with 387 The worry for me is that all the shiny new trains will have to be paid for. AGA will have to pay leasing costs whoever pays up front, fares must go up!

I thing the refurbd Mk 3 s are as good as anything anyware could they not put a driving cab and guards desk in the end of a mk3 after all the freight guards traveled in the back of locos in the early years of fitted freights. they could call them DBSO s

I think our stock could be refreshed at not too much costs I got a dusty bin replacement for LHCS the other night. the driver thrashed it the motors were flat out but it kept inter- city time to the second at Colch They still work why get rid of them

You were unlucky they normally do 80 mph from Maryland to Shenfield.
They need to upgrade the bit to Stratford and increase the speed to 100 to Shenfield then 110 to Colch. Look how you can do 50 miles on GWML or west or East coast line

Why would the costs of leasing a new train increase compared to an existing one? In any event the total cost of operating a train is made up of several components - not only the costs of leasing it.

For example - the new trains are just that - new. Energy costs will be lower as, reportedly, the trains will be lighter than those they replace and while using electric power from the OHLE they will regenerate when braking. Not all the present fleet can do that. For the same number of train-miles electric power consumption will be reduced and brake pads last longer - so lower maintenance costs.

Modern diagnostic systems and automatic inspection systems - such as the optical equipment Bombardier is installing at Crossrail's Old Oak Common depot - will also reduce the costs of maintenance below that of 20, 30 and 40 year old trains.

With the present historic levels of low interest rates the costs to the ROSCOs of financing the construction of new trains is lower than it has ever been. I am just surprised that this is not better understood.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is the point though - the rolling stock operating companies pay for the trains, the train operators only pay the leases - as I understand it, the lease prices are very expensive for the existing rolling stock as it is (especially given its age and actual net value) so theoretically the cost doesn't change. The real worry is the scope of deployment - replacing every single train on a network is not a quick job - many programs with far more limited scope have taken far longer than the 20 months this is planned for - I think it'll still happen, but whether to the same extent at the same rate is another matter.

I think you must be referring to the prices set for leasing the so-called MOLA trains in the early days of privatisation. The Master Operating Lease Agreement (MOLA) fleet covered essentially the ex-BR trains many of which were 'slam-door' stock. 'Indifferent pricing' (the lease costs for both old and newer trains being the same) was intended to make sure that the older trains would still be used. This approach was effectively dropped at the time all the slam-door trains were withdrawn and prices now depend on the train type - a Pacer is much cheaper per vehicle than a Class 185.

One other point. If a ROSCO is approached by different parties during the bid stage for a new franchise they are required to offer the same price to all the parties - that is they cannot favour one bidder over another. This means that the bids made to the DfT will use the same price for any particular item of rolling stock thus making it easier to evaluate the bids.

 

[Class 33]

It would be good if they could bring back the non-stop boat trains between London Liverpool Street and Harwich International. The last time I did a journey up to Harwich International for a ferry crossing to The Netherlands wa s five years ago. Got the train from London Liverpool Street about 6pm-ish/7pm-ish. But with it stopping enroute at Stratford, Shenfield, Witham, Chelmsford, etc, it was absolutely packed out with commuters heading home. Absolutely chock a block by the time I got on, and I headed for the train just as soon as it said what platform it was on on the digital departure boards! And with the 3+2 seating(with no arm rests!) layout and the narrow gangways(even more narrower when loads of people sat on the outside seats are swinging out towards the gangway!), not a very comfortable journey really untill around Chelmsford when the train was far less crowded and quieter! Would have been a far more comfortable relaxed journey with trains with comfortable 2+2 seating and non-stop to Harwich International!

I think they at least should have one evening train per day non-stop up to Harwich International. And one morning train per day non-stop down to London Liverpool Street.

 

[dk1]

It would be good if they could bring back the non-stop boat trains between London Liverpool Street and Harwich International. The last time I did a journey up to Harwich International for a ferry crossing to The Netherlands wa s five years ago. Got the train from London Liverpool Street about 6pm-ish/7pm-ish. But with it stopping enroute at Stratford, Shenfield, Witham, Chelmsford, etc, it was absolutely packed out with commuters heading home. Absolutely chock a block by the time I got on, and I headed for the train just as soon as it said what platform it was on on the digital departure boards! And with the 3+2 seating(with no arm rests!) layout and the narrow gangways(even more narrower when loads of people sat on the outside seats are swinging out towards the gangway!), not a very comfortable journey really untill around Chelmsford when the train was far less crowded and quieter! Would have been a far more comfortable relaxed journey with trains with comfortable 2+2 seating and non-stop to Harwich International!

I think they at least should have one evening train per day non-stop up to Harwich International. And one morning train per day non-stop down to London Liverpool Street.

Trouble is these trains lovely as they would be will take up valuable paths for a load of often less than 50-100 ship passengers. This is no longer an efficient use of scarce recourses at very heavily travelling times on the GEML. Low cost airlines & now shortly to start Eurostar services to the Netherlands have dented traffic in a very large way. Busiest times now are for the Cruise ship arrivals.

 

[jopsuk]

There's not enough foot & cycle passengers to merit dedicated boat trains. The ferries primary business is lorries, followed by other vehicles.

 

[colchesterken]

In about 1990 they used to run a limited stop boat train It used to leave Col about 6 mins after the inter city at about 08.03. The inter city was fast Ips to Liv st .The Boat train stopped at Colchester and Chelmsford only. Seemed to work well about 25% loaded at Colchester window seats for all filled up a bit at Chelmsford but good train to get

 

[dk1]

In about 1990 they used to run a limited stop boat train It used to leave Col about 6 mins after the inter city at about 08.03. The inter city was fast Ips to Liv st .The Boat train stopped at Colchester and Chelmsford only. Seemed to work well about 25% loaded at Colchester window seats for all filled up a bit at Chelmsford but good train to get

Until the late 90s there was the 07:05 Nrw-Lst which was fast from Manningtree & supplemented by the 07:50 Hpq-Lst which did the honours at Colchester. I remember the boat connection was often full at peak holiday times & a SSO was put into the 07:05. When the HSS started on the Hoek-Van-Holland route & times drastically changed they where changed into a 06:55 & 07:10 both originating Norwich. This was also expanded under Anglia to add an 07:24 too! The morning boat train became 08:55 Lst-Hpq & 11:07 return.

 

[306024]

There's not enough foot & cycle passengers to merit dedicated boat trains. The ferries primary business is lorries, followed by other vehicles.

Absolutely. At least on the UK side there are through trains to London at the times of the ships, even if they are not the quickest. Some of these wouldn't run or would run to Ipswich instead if there was no ship. Compare with NS who are more interested in marketing Eurostar via Brussels. In fact once the Rotterdam - Hoek line is converted to the Rotterdam metro it will be game over for the traditional train-ship-train journey.

 

[jopsuk]

Absolutely. At least on the UK side there are through trains to London at the times of the ships, even if they are not the quickest. Some of these wouldn't run or would run to Ipswich instead if there was no ship. Compare with NS who are more interested in marketing Eurostar via Brussels. In fact once the Rotterdam - Hoek line is converted to the Rotterdam metro it will be game over for the traditional train-ship-train journey.

Hoek is already at the point where the service is simply a Sprinter to Rotterdam, no long distance services there any more. It's not as if tickets for the ferry are that expensive, it's simply slow compared to Easyjet or Eurostar. It amazes me (vaguely on topic) that the boat trains to Cambridge still exist, though only connecting to the night ferries- is there any scope for more services to connect Ipswich and Harwich, or is capacity through Ipswich too constrained?

 

[Class 33]

Yes it's a shame not as many foot passengers use the Harwich-Hook Van Holland ferry crossing compared to 15+ years ago. So I can see the reasons for not running the non-stop Boat Trains anymore.

But it is though a nice way to travel between UK and The Netherlands. Getting the train up to Harwich International(although as mentioned the journey nowadays isn't quite as nice as it was compared to when the non-stop Boat Trains were running!), getting on the ferry, having a nice comfortable cabin for a sound nights sleep, then arriving in The Netherlands about 8-ish in the morning, and a short train journey onto your destination. A little more expensive than the cheapest flight prices, but some people find the airport experience a bit stressful nowadays what with all the check-in and security checks, the noise, and large amounts of people about, etc. I'm not as keen on flying as I used to be. There's also the option of going with Megabus, Eurolines, Ouibus, or FlixBus coaches from London Victoria. But chances are you could probably encounter some heavy delays crossing the channel(via ferry or Le Shuttle) due to numerous problems such as stricter border checks, ferry workers going on strike, French lorry drivers blockading Calais, problems with migrants at Calais, etc, etc! Getting the Eurostar and train over to The Netherlands isn't too bad though, but is fairly expensive.

I remember a few times or so getting the Boat Trains between London Liverpool Street and Harwich back in the 90's. Hauled by the superb Class 86's, and lovely non-stop journeys! A shame those days are long gone. Wouldn't expect the Class 86's to be running nowadays of course(if only though!), but if Boat Trains were still going now, Class 90's would probably be used until the brand new high speed trains arrive.

Would be good if at least though could run an evening semi-fast service from London Liverpool Street-Harwich International. With calling points of say Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester, Manningtree, and Harwich International. So wouldn't be a service for the Harwich-Hook Van Holland ferry users only, but also offering a fast service for passengers travelling to Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester, and Manningtree. Also a train that doesn't have 3+2 seating layout. Class 90's would be perfect!

 

[306024]

Err, look in the timetable. That is exactly what is provided (OK it is 321s Mon to Sat and a 360 on a Sunday).

Departs Liverpool Street at 19.32 seven days a week, which is what Stena Line requested to enable passengers to dine on the ship before turning in for the night.

Quite agree it is a most civilised way to travel to Holland.

 

[colchesterken]

Fings aint what they used to be.. Anyone remember the non stop specials to HMS Ganges from Liv st
All the trainee sailors saying good bye to their mums and dads ,dressed in smart uniforms
off for their training

 

[Skutter]

One other point. If a ROSCO is approached by different parties during the bid stage for a new franchise they are required to offer the same price to all the parties - that is they cannot favour one bidder over another. This means that the bids made to the DfT will use the same price for any particular item of rolling stock thus making it easier to evaluate the bids.

Under what legislation can the DfT require this? Does the same apply to other companies - all office rentals must be at the same price? All stationary supplies? Surely these are commercial decisions between companies?

 

[AM9]

Under what legislation can the DfT require this? Does the same apply to other companies - all office rentals must be at the same price? All stationary supplies? Surely these are commercial decisions between companies?

Presumably, the acts that set up the process of bidding, licences and some direct rolling stock funding together with the RfQs for a Franchise/Management contract included the necessary power to mandate equal pricing for specified elements. It would be very difficult to bid competitively for the Southeastern franchise if for instance Govia managed to get a lower price from Angel Trains for the class 465 fleet because it already had a large lease contract on the class 350 fleet with London Midland. Trains in the UK are often route specific and there is rarely much choice in the established RoSCo fleets. Other elements of a TOC commercial operation like offices are usually not single sourced.

 

[transmanche]

One other point. If a ROSCO is approached by different parties during the bid stage for a new franchise they are required to offer the same price to all the parties - that is they cannot favour one bidder over another. This means that the bids made to the DfT will use the same price for any particular item of rolling stock thus making it easier to evaluate the bids.

Under what legislation can the DfT require this? Does the same apply to other companies - all office rentals must be at the same price? All stationary supplies? Surely these are commercial decisions between companies?

I suspect that this is an area where there is no current statutory regulation.

There is a Code of Practice though:

1.1 In July 1998 the Government issued a White Paper which referred to and accepted the then Rail Regulator’s recommendation that rolling stock leasing companies should be asked to produce Codes of Practice covering their dealings with train operating companies.
[...]
In July 2009 Porterbrook gave undertakings to the Competition Commission that it would remove the non-discrimination obligations from the Code, in accordance with the findings of the Competition Commission in the Final Report from its Rolling Stock Leasing Market Investigation
[...]
In December 2011, the association of train operating companies (ATOC) issued its “Rolling stock and value for money” discussion paper. One of the proposals in the paper was to provide franchise bidders with an option to enter into a 3 year short term lease at the commencement of a franchise (“Short Term Lease”) on similar terms to the expiring lease.

And it goes on to say:

In addition, we also accept the importance of behaving in a fair and reasonable manner at the time of franchise renewal and, to that end, we will not abuse any significant market power that we might enjoy at that time. We will offer quotes to potential franchise operators supported by the Secretary of State for Transport, Scottish Ministers or other relevant authority, as appropriate, on a fair basis. Our dealings with potential franchise operators will be on a fair and reasonable basis.

Source: Porterbrook website

 

[lordbusiness]

I'll be very surprised if the 10 car Aventras aren't 2+2 seating with larger 1st class areas for the Clacton, Harwich and Ipswich to London peaks and also Norwich stoppers. Maybe even one of the Chelmsford starters too. Not sure whether they'll be used on the Cambridge line though.

The Aventras will be standard only.....3+2, high density. Supposedly!