Fares system is impossible for the average person to understand

[najaB]

I'm not saying I advocate this approach, but it is Off Peak tickets that cause the vast majority of anomalies and therefore confusion.

Evidence for this is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Evidence for this is?

The huge confusion caused by ticket restrictions, mainly, and that there doesn't appear to be a way to simplify them without causing anomalies (e.g. saving money by splitting either side of an 09:30 cut-off, or if you do it on a per-train basis the pointlessness of not allowing an Off Peak between Haymarket and Edinburgh at about 2100 just because the train left London in the evening peak).

 

[Merseysider]

With such a concept, more Advances would be available - potentially every seat, at variable prices up to the Anytime. You can look at most TOCs' First Class pricing (but reduced) to see how that would work.

Neil, not everybody likes to micro-manage every aspect of their journey as much as you would have them. One attractive thing about the railway is the aspect of turn up and go: ie you can pay a reasonable price and not worry about having to pick a specific time, or have to rush to buy an Advance as soon as the meeting's finished. I don't mean any offence by this but your fixation on single leg pricing borders on the absurd at times.

CrossCountry's approach to simplifying Off Peak ticketing was to introduce a blanket 'not before 09:30' restriction which is entirely reasonable and understandable.

Your approach to get rid of Off Peak tickets is, whilst I have the utmost respect for you and the rest of your opinions, rather over the top.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CrossCountry's approach to simplifying Off Peak ticketing was to introduce a blanket 'not before 09:30' restriction which is entirely reasonable and understandable.

And creates a huge number of anomalies. Think about it.

 

[Merseysider]

And creates a huge number of anomalies. Think about it.

I wouldn't say the number of anomalies is 'huge' at all. Other than the obvious one, where it's sometimes cheaper to split at the first calling point after 0930, what other examples do you have?

The 09:30 restriction, whilst by no means perfect, is 'simple'.

 

[Llanigraham]

Define "off peak"?
Is it the time you catch the train?
Is it the time the train started it's journey?
Is it the time it arrives at the final destination?
Is it the time the passenger gets to their destination?

Not easy, is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't say the number of anomalies is 'huge' at all. Other than the obvious one, where it's sometimes cheaper to split at the first calling point after 0930, what other examples do you have?

The 09:30 restriction, whilst by no means perfect, is 'simple'.

It's pretty poor, because for best value you *have* to split. It also makes Off Peak tickets irrelevant for some very long journeys because you can't possibly complete in a day starting after 09:30.

 

[najaB]

It also makes Off Peak tickets irrelevant for some very long journeys because you can't possibly complete in a day starting after 09:30.

Very long journeys are, as you like to say, a niche requirement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The huge confusion caused by ticket restrictions, mainly.

It only causes confusion because gateline assistants don't want to/can't be bothered to look it up. Peak/off-peak restrictions are very easily automated - NRE manages it with little bother.

 

[AlterEgo]

It only causes confusion because gateline assistants don't want to/can't be bothered to look it up. Peak/off-peak restrictions are very easily automated - NRE manages it with little bother.

Gateline assistants haven't been bothered to learn/look up these things since time immemorial. There have been so many different approaches to training these people that I think we can safely say that more training isn't the answer.

So what is?

 

[Merseysider]

Gateline assistants haven't been bothered to learn/look up these things since time immemorial. There have been so many different approaches to training these people that I think we can safely say that more training isn't the answer.

So what is?

You could theoretically, for good or bad, simplify Off Peak restrictions down to maybe 5 types, such as:

•Not before 0930
•Not before 0930 or between 1630 and 1830
•Not valid on trains which reach London before 0930 or leave between 1630 and 1830

Super Off Peak varieties could be further reduced, again to a maximum of 5, and allowing discrimination based on day as well as time.

It'd then be 'simplified' without taking the draconian step of abolition.

 

[miami]

Gateline assistants haven't been bothered to learn/look up these things since time immemorial. There have been so many different approaches to training these people that I think we can safely say that more training isn't the answer.

So what is?

A webpage which takes the ticket restriction code source and destination, a station name, a train time, and a train destination, and tells you if the ticket is valid

E.G.
Ticket start = Manchester
Ticket destination = Sevenoaks
Code = 2C
Station = Crewe
Train Time = 1001
Train Destination = Euston

Ticket Valid

Source = Stafford
Destination = Sevenoaks
Code = 2C
Station = Crewe
Train Time = 1001
Train Destination = Euston

Ticket Not Valid -- off route

Source = Lancaster
Destination = Sevenoaks
Code = 3A
Station = Crewe
Train Time = 1001
Train Destination = Euston

Ticket Not Valid -- Break of Journey not allowed

(additional field for any railcard that applies)

This would be publicly accessible and the definitive "yes or no", any gateline staff refusing to use it would be summarily replaced.

 

[319321]

This would be publicly accessible and the definitive "yes or no", any gateline staff refusing to use it would be summarily replaced.

Or, as I might prefer, reported for the offence of "willfully inconvieniencing a person on or about the railway".

 

[Clip]

The easiest way for gateline staff to find out if a ticket is valid would be QR codes on all ticekts and them to have a reader.

 

[AlterEgo]

A webpage which takes the ticket restriction code source and destination, a station name, a train time, and a train destination, and tells you if the ticket is valid

...

This would be publicly accessible and the definitive "yes or no", any gateline staff refusing to use it would be summarily replaced.

We already have that in a certain form - it's National Rail Enquiries.

Good luck getting staff "summarily replaced" on the railway. 1) It's very difficult where they are direct TOC employees, and 2) the replacements will be equally poor. Gateline staff are paid very poorly and are outsourced at some TOCs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You could theoretically, for good or bad, simplify Off Peak restrictions down to maybe 5 types, such as:

•Not before 0930
•Not before 0930 or between 1630 and 1830
•Not valid on trains which reach London before 0930 or leave between 1630 and 1830

Super Off Peak varieties could be further reduced, again to a maximum of 5, and allowing discrimination based on day as well as time.

It'd then be 'simplified' without taking the draconian step of abolition.

That isn't going to solve the problem of incompetent gateline/revenue staff though. A single definiton of off peak, written on the face of the ticket would solve most problems.

 

[DaiGog]

I wouldn't say the number of anomalies is 'huge' at all. Other than the obvious one, where it's sometimes cheaper to split at the first calling point after 0930, what other examples do you have?

The 09:30 restriction, whilst by no means perfect, is 'simple'.

It is very simple, but by no means perfect:

1. It applies across the board, with no regard for loadings. For example the 0912 HST heading south-west from Birmingham New Street was, at the time I used to cover it regularly a few years back, about a third full. The 0942 Voyager was quite the opposite. A sensible approach would have been to allow Off-Peak on that train to spread the load, once the crowds from Derby/Burton/Tamworth had got off.

2. It applies to all flows priced by Cross Country with no regard for anything else around them. So Reading - Bournemouth, for example, would be 0930 or later, but Twyford - Bournemouth (priced by GWR) was earlier.

If the aim is to protect the business market travelling to Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol or wherever, then you don't need the same instrument to manage leisure traffic going against the flow.

 

[najaB]

The easiest way for gateline staff to find out if a ticket is valid would be QR codes on all ticekts and them to have a reader.

This is the solution. If you know the origin, destination, location, ticket type and current time it really isn't hard to lookup if a ticket is valid or not.

It doesn't have to be a 2D barcode but since they exist, might as well use them.

 

[miami]

That isn't going to solve the problem of incompetent gateline/revenue staff though. A single definiton of off peak, written on the face of the ticket would solve most problems.

Having a QR code an scanner encoding the data on the ticket, and then saying "yes" or "no" against the next few trains leaving the station, with most importantly a publicly accessibly webpage with the same information, isn't hard.

If they refuse to scan, that's not just "incompetence", it's insubordination. If it beeps "yes", but they still say no, it's not just "incompetence", it's insubordination.

 

[RailAleFan]

Not sure if it's still included on the new ticket format but don't forget the nationalrail.co.uk short URLs for validity codes eg;

nationalrail.co.uk/DJ

 

[miami]

Not sure if it's still included on the new ticket format but don't forget the nationalrail.co.uk short URLs for validity codes eg;

nationalrail.co.uk/DJ

The problem is that many railway staff deny this exists. Many of those who claim to know what it is simply ignore it.

Unfortunately many on the railway can only cope with a "computer says no" or "computer says yes" situation. Complex statement like "This does not not apply if passengers hold tickets for through journeys, i.e. if a change of train is required at one of these five stations to complete their journey. " lead to misery.

Computers implement business logic consistently. People don't. The logic doesn't need to get simpler, it just needs the implementation to be less reliant on inconsistent humans.

 

[najaB]

Computers implement business logic consistently. People don't. The logic doesn't need to get simpler, it just needs the implementation to be less reliant on inconsistent humans.

Computers can also be reprogrammed much more easily to deal with exceptions and easements - for example when rules are eased during summer holidays, etc.

 

[miami]

Computers can also be reprogrammed much more easily to deal with exceptions and easements - for example when rules are eased during summer holidays, etc.

They're also repeatable, so if an undesired effect is found (a valid ticket being rejected), and the customer delayed / has to buy a new ticket, the proof is there and delay-repay can be used to repay the delayed customer, or refund the ticket purchase.

 

[yorkie]

The problem is that many railway staff deny this exists. Many of those who claim to know what it is simply ignore it.

Unfortunately many on the railway can only cope with a "computer says no" or "computer says yes" situation. Complex statement like "This does not not apply if passengers hold tickets for through journeys, i.e. if a change of train is required at one of these five stations to complete their journey. " lead to misery.

Computers implement business logic consistently. People don't. The logic doesn't need to get simpler, it just needs the implementation to be less reliant on inconsistent humans.

Very true.

After a fares workshop a few months ago, someone claiming to be a "manager" for VTEC tried to lecture me into believing that the restriction codes are encoded into magnetic stripes of tickets and that gates can determine which tickets are valid, and any ticket rejected is invalid. He refused to look up the actual restriction but let the customer through regardless after a lot of fuss.

Given that I've had people who are responsible for programming barriers asking me for advice, and am well aware of the limitations of the systems, I wasn't going to be fooled.

No wonder the gateline attendant, who initially denied the passenger entry, was so wrong, if that's what the manager was like.:roll: Sadly this sort of nonsense is not uncommon.

I don't think there was much wrong with the restrictions on CDR/SVR fares under British Rail; the concept isn't hard for someone who is reasonably well trained to understand. I would say the train companies have taken the restrictions too far, while not training staff adequately, and some train companies train their staff in a way that makes them guilty of committing franchise & consumer law breaches.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It is very simple, but by no means perfect:

1. It applies across the board, with no regard for loadings. For example the 0912 HST heading south-west from Birmingham New Street was, at the time I used to cover it regularly a few years back, about a third full. The 0942 Voyager was quite the opposite. A sensible approach would have been to allow Off-Peak on that train to spread the load, once the crowds from Derby/Burton/Tamworth had got off.

2. It applies to all flows priced by Cross Country with no regard for anything else around them. So Reading - Bournemouth, for example, would be 0930 or later, but Twyford - Bournemouth (priced by GWR) was earlier.

If the aim is to protect the business market travelling to Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol or wherever, then you don't need the same instrument to manage leisure traffic going against the flow.

I think you are probably not so far off what needs to be achieved. A restriction of, say, not valid anywhere on any train timed to arrive in Reading, Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds or Nottingham before 0900 would fit the bill. Obviously, you can argue the toss about the list of stations and the time but it protects the commuter market and gets rid of the absurdity of unnecessary restriction of longer-distance journeys from the far-flung reaches of the network.

As Yorkie rightly observes from time to time, the equivalent of the Off-Peak return at privatisation, the Saver, had no time restrictions at all if the London area was not involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree that "not valid on trains arriving in $BIG_CITY before 0930, and not valid on trains departing $BIG_CITY between 1630 and 1900", with a defined and published list of values for $BIG_CITY, is about the only way to make a peak restriction that is consistent and would work reasonably well throughout the country with single fare pricing in operation. You need the evening restriction otherwise you'd have to *very* heavily overprice the Anytime Single on the assumption that everyone will return home on an Off Peak Single.

But the problem with any "departing" restriction is that there are still anomalies, such as an effective Off Peak bar on trains late in the evening just because they happened to originate from London in the evening peak even though they are not even nearly busy.

You could do it zonally, but then it gets yet more complicated...

 

[najaB]

But the problem with any "departing" restriction is that there are still anomalies, such as an effective Off Peak bar on trains late in the evening just because they happened to originate from London in the evening peak even though they are not even nearly busy.

Not a problem. 'Not valid to arrive $TOWN_NEAR_BIGCITY between 1630 and $TIME_IT_TAKES_TO_GET_TOTOWN_NEAR_BIG_CITY'.

Problem solved.

 

[Haywain]

Having a QR code an scanner encoding the data on the ticket, and then saying "yes" or "no" against the next few trains leaving the station, with most importantly a publicly accessibly webpage with the same information, isn't hard.

So, how do you propose that works at stations where the use of trains stood side by side may be impacted differently by the wording of the restriction code? For example, if a restriction states the ticket is not valid on trains "arriving in London before hh:mm" and a London bound train is standing alongside a train bound for a different destination but covering much of the same route. Unfortunately, even what appears to be black & white may actually involve others points on a scale of greys.

If they refuse to scan, that's not just "incompetence", it's insubordination. If it beeps "yes", but they still say no, it's not just "incompetence", it's insubordination.

No, it's poor customer service. No member of staff has to take orders from customers.

After a fares workshop a few months ago, someone claiming to be a "manager" for VTEC tried to lecture me into believing that the restriction codes are encoded into magnetic stripes of tickets and that gates can determine which tickets are valid, and any ticket rejected is invalid. He refused to look up the actual restriction but let the customer through regardless after a lot of fuss.

Given that I've had people who are responsible for programming barriers asking me for advice, and am well aware of the limitations of the systems, I wasn't going to be fooled.

Oh dear. Sad to say that nobody ever tries to explain to staff what the mag stripe does and how, and how little information it carries. Similarly, there is a lack of knowledge about what a barcode on a ticket may actually contain.

 

[miami]

So, how do you propose that works at stations where the use of trains stood side by side may be impacted differently by the wording of the restriction code? For example, if a restriction states the ticket is not valid on trains "arriving in London before hh:mm" and a London bound train is standing alongside a train bound for a different destination but covering much of the same route. Unfortunately, even what appears to be black & white may actually involve others points on a scale of greys.

Scan the card, it highlights the trains leaving in the next x minutes (from crewe, say the 10:01 to London (Virgin via Birmingham), 10:02 to London (LM via Stoke)). Green/ticks for valid trains, Red/no ticks for invalid trains.

No, it's poor customer service. No member of staff has to take orders from customers.

They have to take orders from their management. It's not the military, I don't expect a court marshall, however if they are not obeying the computer then they are in the wrong job and need to be removed, a 3 year old can understand "yes" or "no".

Oh dear. Sad to say that nobody ever tries to explain to staff what the mag stripe does and how, and how little information it carries. Similarly, there is a lack of knowledge about what a barcode on a ticket may actually contain.

A QR code is (or should be) an open standard, anyone can scan it and see exactly what data is there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a problem. 'Not valid to arrive $TOWN_NEAR_BIGCITY between 1630 and $TIME_IT_TAKES_TO_GET_TOTOWN_NEAR_BIG_CITY'.

Problem solved.

But then that's getting complicated, and heads towards what we have already anyway.

 

[Haywain]

A QR code is (or should be) an open standard, anyone can scan it and see exactly what data is there.

Regardless, if you ask 100 random people in the street (or 100 railway staff) what information a barcode contains, I'll wager that 90% and probably more wouldn't know.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

But then that's getting complicated, and heads towards what we have already anyway.

Which is my point - the problem isn't the restrictions, it's that *people* don't understand them. Computers do though.

So give the people computers.