Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[74A]

Surely you watched Wilkinson at the Transport select committee? There is no future for OBS roles. He said he isn't interested in two staff on trains. Would expect most will be looking for new jobs if/when the government specifies DOO extension. Although other TOCs drivers do not have DOO written into their contracts. The whole reason the RMT were fighting this is they know the OBS has no future. The OBS thing was only a PR thing so the union couldn't say people were being got rid of....yet

Quoting from Southern website

The offer guaranteed a job until 2021, above-inflation pay rises and guaranteed levels of overtime. GTR improved that offer last Monday by offering a £2,000 payment to all those in the new role in January.

If the RMT had reached agreement then there would have been a job for at least the next five years which is quite a long time. After that who knows but the strathclyde agreement in scotland has lasted over 20 years so I don't see why OBS won't last.

Who knows what will happen in the future. Driverless trains may be on the way. But we can say that OBS will now be worse off than if they had agreed to GTRs offer.

 

[HH]

Surely you watched Wilkinson at the Transport select committee? There is no future for OBS roles. He said he isn't interested in two staff on trains. Would expect most will be looking for new jobs if/when the government specifies DOO extension. Although other TOCs drivers do not have DOO written into their contracts. The whole reason the RMT were fighting this is they know the OBS has no future. The OBS thing was only a PR thing so the union couldn't say people were being got rid of....yet

I agree; long term the future is Digital and Technology-led. Compare banks now to how they used to be. I used to have to visit the back regularly, to pay in cheques, to get cash, to meet the manager. Now I don't see the inside of a bank from one year to the next. Less staff are needed.

There's some need for Ticket Issuing and Checking now, but in a few years that will change. Another feature of recent ITTs has been the demand by DfT for 'Smart' ticketing and the move to digital retail. Wilko's a man on a mission.

 

[Richard1960]

Quoting from Southern website

The offer guaranteed a job until 2021, above-inflation pay rises and guaranteed levels of overtime. GTR improved that offer last Monday by offering a £2,000 payment to all those in the new role in January.

If the RMT had reached agreement then there would have been a job for at least the next five years which is quite a long time. After that who knows but the strathclyde agreement in scotland has lasted over 20 years so I don't see why OBS won't last.

Who knows what will happen in the future. Driverless trains may be on the way. But we can say that OBS will now be worse off than if they had agreed to GTRs offer.

I have never had a job with guaranteed overtime ! either the work is there or not say if you are guaranteed overtime and its not really needed.

Perhaps things work differently in the rail industry.

 

[Dave1987]

Quoting from Southern website

The offer guaranteed a job until 2021, above-inflation pay rises and guaranteed levels of overtime. GTR improved that offer last Monday by offering a £2,000 payment to all those in the new role in January.

If the RMT had reached agreement then there would have been a job for at least the next five years which is quite a long time. After that who knows but the strathclyde agreement in scotland has lasted over 20 years so I don't see why OBS won't last.

Who knows what will happen in the future. Driverless trains may be on the way. But we can say that OBS will now be worse off than if they had agreed to GTRs offer.

Again I will take you back to what Wilkinson stated at the Transport Select Comittee. He clearly stated he wasn't interested in there being two staff members on a train. He would give no assurances that the OBS would continue after 2021. Now that says to me that this role won't exist in the future. The RMT tried to get conditions that would have guaranteed the OBS role survival, the DFT weren't interested in that. The OBS role will be no worse of than if they had rolled over at the start, in fact they have achieved a huge amount over what they were originally offered.

 

[JamesTT]

It amuses me how adamant people are that all OBS's will be got rid of between now and the end of the franchise. Maybe they will maybe they won't sorry but you cannot say this for definite. Oh and don't trot out the your naive line again, look what happened to GATEX hosts, can I point out they have reintroduced them in the form of dedicated GATEX OBS's.
Why is the company wasting money on the OBS staff why didn't they say we only need this number of guards you all need to reapply those that are unsuccessful will be offered other jobs or can take redundancy?
One thing that really strikes me is that those of you that are the OBS won't last. Don't appear to want to be proved wrong, I really do hope you won't behave in an immature and spiteful way and do your best to sabotage the role

 

[Chrisgr31]

If there was an intention for the OBS role to continue the DfT would have confirmed that the requirement to have them would be in the new franchise.

With ticket barriers, smart ticketing etc there will be no need for on-board staff, after all that must be why the revenue protection staff have vanished on Southern.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If there was an intention for the OBS role to continue the DfT would have confirmed that the requirement to have them would be in the new franchise.

With ticket barriers, smart ticketing etc there will be no need for on-board staff, after all that must be why the revenue protection staff have vanished on Southern.

RPIs are also being made OBS.

 

[Bishopstone]

Again I will take you back to what Wilkinson stated at the Transport Select Comittee. He clearly stated he wasn't interested in there being two staff members on a train. He would give no assurances that the OBS would continue after 2021. Now that says to me that this role won't exist in the future.

It would be extremely rash for any employer/Government to promise employment beyond 2021. It is very likely that we will still need nurses, teachers, soldiers, plumbers and coffee shop assistants in 2021, but none of them have an employer *guarantee* of future employment.

I am surprised even the 2021 pledge was made, and whilst I can understand GTR conductors leaving for other reasons - eg the nature of the role has changed quite substantively for the worse, and the atmosphere at work is awful - I don't get why you would leave in 2016 because someone at the DfT has hinted the role might not exist after 2021? Five years is quite a long time to draw a reasonable salary and accumulate (final salary?) pensionable service.

Presumably, even under the OBS contract, there would be redundancy payments if GTR/DfT decided to do-away with the role en mass? Or would it just be the statutory minimum?

 

[JamesTT]

If there was an intention for the OBS role to continue the DfT would have confirmed that the requirement to have them would be in the new franchise.

With ticket barriers, smart ticketing etc there will be no need for on-board staff, after all that must be why the revenue protection staff have vanished on Southern.

Haven't GTR said they would propose to keep OBS's in any future bid? Can the DFT say before 5 years before the new franchise what the obligations will be? Who knows we might have a huge recession mass unemployment and Jezza or Nige might get in to number 10

RPO's are now OBS's a much bigger change in job role than Conductor to OBS. But the RMT seem to have ignored this.

Barriers are often open ticket machines smart card readers don't work all the time. Some stations have no gates.

 

[infobleep]

Legal advice from the RMT solicitors to protect the staff from dismissal

Why could they get this legal advice before the deadline? Also is staff get dismissed, isn't that like redundancy with pay out. Wouldn't some staff prefer that to accepting the new roles?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It amuses me how adamant people are that all OBS's will be got rid of between now and the end of the franchise. Maybe they will maybe they won't sorry but you cannot say this for definite. Oh and don't trot out the your naive line again, look what happened to GATEX hosts, can I point out they have reintroduced them in the form of dedicated GATEX OBS's.
Why is the company wasting money on the OBS staff why didn't they say we only need this number of guards you all need to reapply those that are unsuccessful will be offered other jobs or can take redundancy?
One thing that really strikes me is that those of you that are the OBS won't last. Don't appear to want to be proved wrong, I really do hope you won't behave in an immature and spiteful way and do your best to sabotage the role

So why did they get rid of them on Gatwick Express to only reintroduce them? Sounds like a U turn. If they didn't need them before, why do they suddenly need them now? What's changed? I know they have knew rolling stock but both good carry an OBS.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[the sniper]

Barriers are often open ticket machines smart card readers don't work all the time. Some stations have no gates.

Yes, such is the value most TOCs attribute to maintaining and filling revenue protection related roles... :roll:

We should share your faith in the future of the OBS though, as they'll be an exception?

 

[infobleep]

Haven't GTR said they would propose to keep OBS's in any future bid? Can the DFT say before 5 years before the new franchise what the obligations will be? Who knows we might have a huge recession mass unemployment and Jezza or Nige might get in to number 10

RPO's are now OBS's a much bigger change in job role than Conductor to OBS. But the RMT seem to have ignored this.

Barriers are often open ticket machines smart card readers don't work all the time. Some stations have no gates.

Well if the future can't the written yet then GTR can't say they'd write it in their bid as no ITT has been issued. No different to government saying they can't guarantee. Although as the government gives overriding guidance, more chance they could guarantee than GTR ever could.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[JamesTT]

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So why did they get rid of them on Gatwick Express to only reintroduce them? Sounds like a U turn. If they didn't need them before, why do they suddenly need them now? What's changed? I know they have knew rolling stock but both good carry an OBS.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I suppose the lack of staff on Gatwick Express made a mockery of the premium service label. They are also proposing an onboard cleaner in addition to the OBS.

 

[XDM]

RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

TSGN has won the battle with the union accepting OBS


More Southern guards than on previous strike days told their managers & the union they would be reporting for duty this week & not striking. In the face of more trains running, RMT now looking for face saving talks so they can claim a victory to the media. The best they will get is the £2,000 per guard bonus. So RMT will present that as a triumph of unionism to the public.

 

[JamesTT]

Yes, such is the value most TOCs attribute to maintaining and filling revenue protection related roles... :roll:

We should share your faith in the future of the OBS though, as they'll be an exception?

How many revenue staff (not agency or on FTC's) been actually made redundant?

Hasn't the OBS role been introduced in part to hit ticketless travel targets and to protect revenue? All southern revenue staff are OBS I think that suggests they care about revenue protection.

 

[tony6499]

T

RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

TSGN has won the battle with the union accepting OBS


More Southern guards than on previous strike days told their managers & the union they would be reporting for duty this week & not striking. In the face of more trains running, RMT now looking for face saving talks so they can claim a victory to the media. The best they will get is the £2,000 per guard bonus. So RMT will present that as a triumph of unionism to the public.

Wishful thinking on your behalf, are you sure you're not adding 2+2 and getting 5 ? They've been advised to sign new contracts to protect them legally not as a surrender

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have read all 408 pages with interest and I have come to the conclusion that a minority of people who clearly couldn't care less what happens to the Guards. Then a middle ground that most people here seem to be which is can't stop GTR doing what they want to (with the DaFT's help) and then the people who work in the industry like myself who sees on a daily basis why Guards are needed. Safety will be corroded and peoples lives are wrecked but thats ok because it has happened to me/them/my brothers cousins friend. Some of the enthusiasts here do not care about the railway they care about their ego well to the minority of them hope your ego is in great shape because peoples lives have been flushed down the toilet. My time up north will come eventually just like eventually there will be an incident on a DOO service that lives are lost because of the lack of a guard. But then that will be too late. I am saddened by the responses from a minority of people (and I use that term loosely) on here and my heart goes out to my colleagues down south. Whatever happens Colleagues everywhere will give you their support.

 

[JamesTT]

Wishful thinking on your behalf, are you sure you're not adding 2+2 and getting 5 ? They've been advised to sign new contracts to protect them legally not as a surrender

How quickly do they have to decide whether to stick or twist?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have read all 408 pages with interest and I have come to the conclusion that a minority of people who clearly couldn't care less what happens to the Guards. Then a middle ground that most people here seem to be which is can't stop GTR doing what they want to (with the DaFT's help) and then the people who work in the industry like myself who sees on a daily basis why Guards are needed. Safety will be corroded and peoples lives are wrecked but thats ok because it has happened to me/them/my brothers cousins friend. Some of the enthusiasts here do not care about the railway they care about their ego well to the minority of them hope your ego is in great shape because peoples lives have been flushed down the toilet. My time up north will come eventually just like eventually there will be an incident on a DOO service that lives are lost because of the lack of a guard. But then that will be too late. I am saddened by the responses from a minority of people (and I use that term loosely) on here and my heart goes out to my colleagues down south. Whatever happens Colleagues everywhere will give you their support.

Do you think there was enough information given out by the RMT about such incidents? Are things reported sufficiently so the stats are available to show DOO is the much unsafer option? Did the RMT push their booklet about the importance of the guard enough?

Tell someone who has been long term unemployed that you class someone who has a £30k plus a year job until 2021 with all the other benefits as having their life flushed down the toilet. I can imagine what the response would be

 

[Dave1987]

It amuses me how adamant people are that all OBS's will be got rid of between now and the end of the franchise. Maybe they will maybe they won't sorry but you cannot say this for definite. Oh and don't trot out the your naive line again, look what happened to GATEX hosts, can I point out they have reintroduced them in the form of dedicated GATEX OBS's.
Why is the company wasting money on the OBS staff why didn't they say we only need this number of guards you all need to reapply those that are unsuccessful will be offered other jobs or can take redundancy?
One thing that really strikes me is that those of you that are the OBS won't last. Don't appear to want to be proved wrong, I really do hope you won't behave in an immature and spiteful way and do your best to sabotage the role

So why wasn't Wilkinson happy to say that the role will be honoured post 2021 then eh? Why did he say he wasn't interested in two staff on a train eh?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So why did they get rid of them on Gatwick Express to only reintroduce them? Sounds like a U turn. If they didn't need them before, why do they suddenly need them now? What's changed? I know they have knew rolling stock but both good carry an OBS

Indeed and why did they only reintroduce them after it was pointed out by the union that they got rid of them on the Gat Express!

 

[JamesTT]

So why wasn't Wilkinson happy to say that the role will be honoured post 2021 then eh? Why did he say he wasn't interested in two staff on a train eh?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed and why did they only reintroduce them after it was pointed out by the union that they got rid of them on the Gat Express!

Wilkinson might be in a totally different industry by the time the ITT are being drafted for the next franchise.

Then that is surely a mini victory for the union the company perhaps only for 5 years have reintroduced hosts to the Gat Express services

 

[Dave1987]

Do you think there was enough information given out by the RMT about such incidents? Are things reported sufficiently so the stats are available to show DOO is the much unsafer option? Did the RMT push their booklet about the importance of the guard enough?

Tell someone who has been long term unemployed that you class someone who has a £30k plus a year job until 2021 with all the other benefits as having their life flushed down the toilet. I can imagine what the response would be

That's an extremely poor argument. Any of them is able to apply for guards jobs. The pay is directly related to the amount of responsibility and training required. You can't train a guard in 5 mins like you can a till assistant in a supermarket.

 

[LowLevel]

That's an extremely poor argument. Any of them is able to apply for guards jobs. The pay is directly related to the amount of responsibility and training required. You can't train a guard in 5 mins like you can a till assistant in a supermarket.

Not to mention that the job security is all well and good until you remember just how many years you need to work to pay off a mortgage to buy a very average house in 2016 in this mismanaged excuse for a country.

Even buying a home at all is a gamble nowadays and if the Government chooses to take action to force you towards redundancy the help they give you to cover said mortgage that you are effectively forced to take is worth bugger all (when I last checked which was admittedly a while back they paid the interest only while you were receiving benefits).

The irony is that apparently this is now situation normal and to not be sure that as someone who wants to work hard and not cause trouble you won't be living under a bridge in 6 years is a bit hard to stomach.

 

[JamesTT]

That's an extremely poor argument. Any of them is able to apply for guards jobs. The pay is directly related to the amount of responsibility and training required. You can't train a guard in 5 mins like you can a till assistant in a supermarket.

Why is it a poor argument? Not talking about vacancies I am talking about people being told they have a guaranteed job for the next 5 years at least.

Based on the court injunction between GTR and ASLEF. They could have upgraded the lines stations etc introduced trains with cameras on all routes and said all GTR services are now DOO with no second person at all. Given notice of redundancy and they could have been gone within a few months. Government seem to find money for certain projects if they where that determined to scrap 2nd person on trains they could have found the funds to finance an upgrade and redundancy programme
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not to mention that the job security is all well and good until you remember just how many years you need to work to pay off a mortgage to buy a very average house in 2016 in this mismanaged excuse for a country.

Even buying a home at all is a gamble nowadays and if the Government chooses to take action to force you towards redundancy the help they give you to cover said mortgage that you are effectively forced to take is worth bugger all (when I last checked which was admittedly a while back they paid the interest only while you were receiving benefits).

The irony is that apparently this is now situation normal and to not be sure that as someone who wants to work hard and not cause trouble you won't be living under a bridge in 6 years is a bit hard to stomach.

So that is 6 years to perhaps take a course at night school or equivalent. 6 years to stand out from the crowd and really make a go of the new role. 6 years to do other in house courses and to gain transferrable skills.
Come the end of the franchise start of the new one no one can say what will happen.

 

[Robertj21a]

If there was an intention for the OBS role to continue the DfT would have confirmed that the requirement to have them would be in the new franchise.

With ticket barriers, smart ticketing etc there will be no need for on-board staff, after all that must be why the revenue protection staff have vanished on Southern.

Seriously - do you honestly believe that the DfT (or anyone really) can make a firm binding commitment about something 5 years away ? Many jobs have only a month's notice (3-6 months if you're lucky), who else has been guaranteed 5 years work !!

 

[ComUtoR]

I have never had a job with guaranteed overtime ! either the work is there or not say if you are guaranteed overtime and its not really needed.

Perhaps things work differently in the rail industry.

Makes you wonder why there is some much of it and why they are able to guarantee overtime. This IS NOT a good thing.

 

[Bellbell]

Why is it a poor argument? Not talking about vacancies I am talking about people being told they have a guaranteed job for the next 5 years at least.

Based on the court injunction between GTR and ASLEF. They could have upgraded the lines stations etc introduced trains with cameras on all routes and said all GTR services are now DOO with no second person at all. Given notice of redundancy and they could have been gone within a few months. Government seem to find money for certain projects if they where that determined to scrap 2nd person on trains they could have found the funds to finance an upgrade and redundancy programme
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So that is 6 years to perhaps take a course at night school or equivalent. 6 years to stand out from the crowd and really make a go of the new role. 6 years to do other in house courses and to gain transferrable skills.
Come the end of the franchise start of the new one no one can say what will happen.

Except that in this role it's impossible to take a course at night since we're often at work or asleep when the course is on. Same with a morning course. Saturday course. You get the picture. How many in house courses do you think guards are offered?

We're paid well. I don't know if this is necessarily true but it's always seemed to me that's partly because of the limits on our free time and developing any routines in that free time. We can't upskill ourselves very easily. We do have transferrable skills but at the same time work in a pretty niche role and anyone hiring outside the industry is possibly not going to understand our skills as well as they'd understand someone from a more mainstream industry.

Those things above are not unique to the guard's role or to the industry, before I get jumped on, but it was undeniably easier for me to access internal and external training in a mon-fri, 9-5 more traditional, common role.

 

[infobleep]

How quickly do they have to decide whether to stick or twist?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do you think there was enough information given out by the RMT about such incidents? Are things reported sufficiently so the stats are available to show DOO is the much unsafer option? Did the RMT push their booklet about the importance of the guard enough?

Tell someone who has been long term unemployed that you class someone who has a £30k plus a year job until 2021 with all the other benefits as having their life flushed down the toilet. I can imagine what the response would be

So are Southern now going to fill vacant posts with the long term unemployed?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[WatcherZero]

Makes you wonder why there is some much of it and why they are able to guarantee overtime. This IS NOT a good thing.

Unions usually negotiate to increase overtime entitlement, it allows their members to top up their earnings if they choose to.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unions usually negotiate to increase overtime entitlement, it allows their members to top up their earnings if they choose to.

There has been a number of times where TOC's have been caught out with cancellations due to staffing levels. If you look through this forum there are a number of threads about TOC's relying on overtime and how ludicrous it is.

It's cheaper to pay overtime than employ a functional level of staffing.

Remind me what happened to Southern recently where overtime was banned and even when it was reinstated there was little to no staff volunteering to work.

 

[HH]

It's cheaper to pay overtime than employ a functional level of staffing.

Sometimes, but even then it's not by a great deal. Certainly not enough to make that the reason for relying on overtime. In my opinion there are other, more likely reasons:

1. There's a headcount cap, set by someone at HQ (or above) who decided that they don't want to increase the numbers over last year, and the local management haven't got the balls to tell them that (for instance) the TT changed.

2. Local management don't manage the staff; meaning that they have days with too many staff and days with too few.

3. Local management want a bit of overtime to keep some staff sweet, so they'll help them out if they get in a hole (usually of their own making).

You might notice a common element here...