Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Shaw S Hunter]

I was in on this thread quite early on, including some references to the original DOO dispute of over 30 years ago, but have kept out of it recently due to the severe lack of meaningful discussion. Now it seems to be nearing closure I wonder if all concerned are considering whether there are lessons to be learned.

From the employer's perspective it is clear, just as it was all those years ago, that "success" is more readily achieved by seeking to keep ASLEF out of it as RMT (NUR of old) is powerless on its own to provide effective resistance. Of course ASLEF severely misplayed its hand with the GatEx 12car situation and was sidelined by the court ruling that a local agreement cannot trump a contract of employment. Which is actually a reasonable conclusion. It would also appear that where a TOC already has a significant proportion of DOO working, with the appropriate driver contracts in place, it is relatively easy to dispense with any remaining guards. As one of our members can testify; remember London Overground? So guards on South Eastern are probably doomed, and those working electric trains on Greater Anglia are also vulnerable.

But at TOCs which currently have no DOO at all a different scenario is possible, depending on how determined ASLEF members are to resist. Namely to insist as part of a pay deal that their contracts of employment make it clear that their prime task is the safe movement of trains and not the management of the Platform Train Interface. In other words to insist that they be contractually excluded from any door operation at platforms. This will seem Luddite to some but equally there are many drivers who believe that PTI safety should have absolutely nothing to do with them, a feeling made much worse by recent court cases. Of course this demand will understandably be refused. So it will be down to drivers to decide how much they really want to resist DOO at their TOC. Strike action would be inevitable and probably a very low pay settlement if such a change could be agreed. But many drivers already moan at how much tax they find themselves paying given the level to which their pay has risen.

From my time as a guard I know that plenty of drivers are utterly opposed to DOO but inter-union politics means that many in ASLEF believe that since DOO only threatens the continued of employment of guards rather than drivers (the I'm all right Jack syndrome) that RMT have to be seen to be defending their position first before drivers get involved. And I think we've seen how that ends up. It would seem that one or two drivers who are members here have already started thinking ahead about how this might unfold at their TOCs.

Of course another angle which has been very largely ignored is the issue of accessibility to Persons of Reduced Mobility. At some point it may well be that campaign groups may become more involved as they did, using "direct action" sometimes, when low-floor technology for buses first became available but operators and local authorities were reluctant to meet the then higher cost of such vehicles. It would also seem a nonsense to spend considerable sums of money improving accessibility to stations if PRMs then find the trains can only be used when the TOCs can be bothered to provide the requisite staffing.

Some here have noticed that the TSGN franchise actually being a management contract made it somewhat easier for the DfT to impose its will and that the more normal franchising situation at other TOCs may well make said TOCs rather reluctant to fight what is effectively a political battle. So those who think that DOO is now a "shoe-in" across the whole network as a result of what has happened at GTR-Southern will, I suspect, be disappointed.

 

[the sniper]

But now the battle is almost over, with the RMT on the losing side (as I always said it would be), I'm just glad that the long suffering GTR commuters will perhaps now be able to once again rely on the train service in GTR land.

GTR barely functioned properly as a franchise before Wilkinson's war, no problem has been solved by the screwing of the Guards. The only real problem with Guards was created by the DfT choosing to do anything possible to get rid of them. The biggest thing that has been achieved is that GTR now has a work force that largely despises its employer, so they've likely lost any goodwill that existed amongst Drivers and the remaining Guards pre-dispute that would have helped keep the job going in hard times. GTR will be left to fall on their sword now...

Oh, I forgot, GTR gained the opportunity to blame all their problems on those nasty communist Guards going off sick... I wonder how long it'll be before that excuse wears thin in the eyes of the public on what will be a largely DOO network. :roll:

I'm assuming that, after the Southern 'success' it will be increasingly difficult to argue the point about doors/safety. No doubt the DfT will incorporate it in every future franchise, so will the operator receiving the franchise believe that the basic framework is now in place ?.

As GadgetMan said it will be much more difficult for TOCs without a DOO agreement in place with the drivers. We have seen what disruption the strikes caused when some routes were stopped due to the guards walking out, imagine nothing London Midland operated (for example as it seems to be the next one lined up) running at all.

Brave/Stupid company that does that.

Exactly. Southern was the easy target when it came to DOO expansion/conversion. I think the DfT thought it'd be an easy battle to win to kick off their war. Looking at the bare facts, they're right, it should have been. Drivers already contractually committed to and trained for working DOO, stock prepared for DOO, existing degraded working on many Guard worked trains (Driver releasing doors/10 on buzzer operation/lack of full Guard panels in cabs) rather than the Guard having full door control like elsewhere. It should have just been a matter of telling the Guards to f*** off... But I think the defence mounted by the RMT and ASLEF took the DfT by surprise, I honestly don't think they expected the long drawn out campaign they got. But having committed to this course of action they could not back down, they had to 'win' this one at least.

Going forward though it'll be interesting to see what happens. If people think the situation on Southern was ugly, we haven't see anything yet... Northern Rail, South West Trains, London Midland and Merseyrail will be entirely different beasts to take on. All have no precedent of DOO(P). Looking at each one individually:

Northern Rail
Required in ITT, published pre-Southern dispute. Large amount of new DOO ready stock coming in. Certain percentage required to be worked DCO post 2020. The battle lines are drawn, the DfT are already committed to DCO here, but post-Southern I can't see ASLEF giving any ground. Where no DOO(P) exists, I struggle to see what course can be taken by the TOC and DfT to force through DCO on Drivers without ASLEF cooperation. This will probably be the first battle where big money will start being thrown at Drivers, but post-Southern, I think a long drawn out conflict is inevitable, unless Northern can negotiate with the DfT to permit the Scottish interpretation of DCO to be introduced instead.

South West Trains
First ITT in the wake of the Southern battle and realisation that this isn't going to be easy? ITT adopts the non-committal line "[Initiatives] could include the implementation of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). Where DCO is proposed[...]". Both bidders would be wise to avoid the fight, but the level of competition might drive them to propose DCO on the 'red routes' (with little short term benefit) where 707s are being introduced and 455s could be replaced with new stock. If the DfT were wise, they'd probably find it easier to defer DCO on SWT territory until when Crossrail 2 essentially starts afresh. SWT Drivers and Guards have already won one DOO battle in the late 90s, their non DOO(P) T&Cs were hard fought, they'll be ready to defend themselves again.

London Midland
Another post Southern battle ITT, another 'could implement DCO' suggestion. The West Midlands franchise has never been the most fancied proposition, MTR pulled out of the running early on. Doesn't seem like any new stock is coming, so DCO would mean 323s retrospectively being fitted with cameras at what'll be nearly two-thirds of the way through their working life. Will either bidder feel the need to go extravagant and take on a prolonged DCO battle? ASLEF are strong in LM. Many LM Guards would fight to the death in order to avoid being a lone TTE on the Cross City line at all hours of the day, redundancy would be preferable!

Merseyrail
A concession rather than a franchise. It'll be interesting to see what happens here. Merseytravel have said they want DCO, but in an area that is fairly notoriously left leaning and pro union, I could see them settling for Scottish DCO, given that they're not fixed to the ideology of Wilkinson and Co at the DfT.


Finally, to all the usual suspects taking great joy in saying that the RMT should have settled long ago, that they've robbed their members and inevitably lost, you need to look at the bigger picture. While I appreciate you're just enjoying kicking these screwed rail staff while they're down, it'll be a couple of years before we can judge all the tactics of the RMT. This was a battle in a much bigger war. While Southern Guards ended up fighting a losing battle, their prolonged resistance has shown they DfT that this grade will not be destroyed with the ease I think they expected. The ugly prolonged situation on Southern probably contributed to Transport Scotland giving up on DCO, seeing that the negligible benefits weren't worth the cost if you don't intend to use DCO as an easier route to DOO, like the DfT. The difficulty in getting DCO through on Southern may also be the reason why DCO hasn't been demanded in the West Mids or South West franchise ITT. If the sacrifice of the Southern Guards, which you all say was inevitable, ends up saving the positions of many hundreds of other Guards across the country, were the RMT so foolish after all? We'll find out next year whether any company chooses to take up the DOO war on those franchises.

The other thing I'd say is that I was actually surprised by Charles Horton sticking the boot into his new OBS, rubbing their noses in the idea that the RMT 'lost' them £2000. I don't know why, it should be expected, as it just shows his true colours. While various folk here would hate it, he could have offered them the money as a kind, 'let bygones be bygones, let's move forward together', but instead chose to take the p*** out of them. Yes, I'm sure the OBS will be a valued addition to the GTR franchise... :roll:

Time to dig in and give Wilkinson the War he wanted on 'his' railway. Can't speak for others but I've got atleast 6 months worth of wages in savings so I'd happily go on a 6 month continuous strike should the need arise, hopefully others will be preparing similarly.

I now fairly consistently work 18 out of 19 days, have two days off, then do it all again. The main reason I do this is because I intend to be ready for the day that they come for us.

 

[Dave1987]

I see this thread has descended into union bashing again. Time to leave as people who actually know what they are talking about are just perceived as backward, outdated etc. What a country we live in, where people are lambasted for fighting for trying to protect their jobs and safety.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some here have noticed that the TSGN franchise actually being a management contract made it somewhat easier for the DfT to impose its will and that the more normal franchising situation at other TOCs may well make said TOCs rather reluctant to fight what is effectively a political battle. So those who think that DOO is now a "shoe-in" across the whole network as a result of what has happened at GTR-Southern will, I suspect, be disappointed.

The mention made of "a political battle" is indeed one that a certain number of contributors to this thread had suspected from the start, noting the political leanings of those in the highest positions of the RMT, which nicely now shoehorns with the Momentum connection to the current Labour party, as just another part of "the struggle".

 

[embers25]

We don't enjoy kicking "screwed rail staff" as you call them, but in the 21st century I for one don't want a government that caves to unions and it is ridiculous and wrong for the RMT to demand jobs for life. GTR was not great before the RMT tried to run it into the ground but it certainly wasn't bad compared to FCC for example. Unfortunately we still have more strikes to come despite the battle being lost as the union would rather continue to lose it's members money than publicly admit the defeat it has suffered. This was always a "who would blink first" situation and the RMT blinked. The customers however continue to suffer due to their pointless and futile strikes. What are they striking over now as if these new contracts are so dangerous for passengers why would they agree with their comrades signing them and putting us all at risk! So the staff lose, the customers lose but the RMT keep raking in the cash....and yet still their comrades can't see the reality.

 

[Johnuk123]

It's always been interesting reading this thread esp as I am on the front line. There are things I could add, lies fixed, but as many of you know I'm very limited in what I can say on here.

But on an interesting note. I hear DOO test trains heading into SWT went well. I cannot give details, but the words fart and spacesuit comes to mind.

What a tease you are, zzzz.

 

[embers25]

I see this thread has descended into union bashing again. Time to leave as people who actually know what they are talking about are just perceived as backward, outdated etc. What a country we live in, where people are lambasted for fighting for trying to protect their jobs and safety.

Its not and never will be a safety argument...period. Unless you actually have hard statistics to prove this point...but given no-one has produced them yet at any point the whole safety argument is purely hypothetical and not a proven fact. Protecting jobs is one thing but this dispute had been fought on "money going to France" and a flawed safety argument. Most people would like a second member of staff on their train but that's not been the RMT argument until every other flawed argument failed, by which point we'd already seen their hidden agenda and so weren't interested. The RMT has got their members into this mess and cost them money and public support and thats not union bashing its fact.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see this thread has descended into union bashing again. Time to leave as people who actually know what they are talking about are just perceived as backward, outdated etc. What a country we live in, where people are lambasted for fighting for trying to protect their jobs and safety.

Spoken like a true son of "The Red Flag"...

 

[Dave1987]

Its not and never will be a safety argument...period. Unless you actually have hard statistics to prove this point...but given no-one has produced them yet at any point the whole safety argument is purely hypothetical and not a proven fact. Protecting jobs is one thing but this dispute had been fought on "money going to France" and a flawed safety argument. Most people would like a second member of staff on their train but that's not been the RMT argument until every other flawed argument failed, by which point we'd already seen their hidden agenda and so weren't interested. The RMT has got their members into this mess and cost them money and public support and thats not union bashing its fact.

Suggest you read the Kentish Town RAIB report. What more proof do you want.
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Spoken like a true son of "The Red Flag"...

Dear oh dear oh dear, you have no idea how I voted. We live in a country now where people aren't allowed to fight for their jobs and livelihoods and are expected to just accept anything dished out to them. I'm sure your mortgage is paid off and you are on a lovely final salary pension. Wonder what the guards mortgage companies will be thinking now they are potentially out of a job in 5 years time!

 

[AlterEgo]

Suggest you read the Kentish Town RAIB report. What more proof do you want.

It would be helpful if you could remind everyone what the RAIB's recommendations were, because I don't recall "put a guard back on the train" being one of them.

(Awaits answer along the lines of RAIB being bought and prostituted by the DfT and GTR)

 

[Dave1987]

It would be helpful if you could remind everyone what the RAIB's recommendations were, because I don't recall "put a guard back on the train" being one of them.

(Awaits answer along the lines of RAIB being bought and prostituted by the DfT and GTR)

So what about Watford tunnel then? Think guards were useless there? Kentish Town highlighted how much of a risk passenger self detraining is and even the RSSB have acknowledged the risks of passengers self detraining. There have been more incidents recently as well. Second members of staff on the train eleviates this risk by keeping passengers informed leaving the driver to get on with dealing with the situation in hand.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wonder what the guards mortgage companies will be thinking now they are potentially out of a job in 5 years time!

That is a situation that the guards themselves should be giving a great deal of thought to rather than the mortgage companies, as it will be no use whatsoever expecting the RMT to intercede when large numbers of house repossessions take place as the mortgagees find that after a certain period of time, they do not have the funds to pay off their mortgages, which is a situation that has occurred for many years now for a sizable number of the populace at large from all spectrums of the political divide.

If certain people feel that adhering to their political beliefs overrides their responsibilities to their family, then if financial disaster would be a direct result of dogma over responsibility, the price that will be paid will be high.

 

[Dave1987]

What I find amazing is train drivers and the union ASLEF are making a big thing about something we find very important to safety. Yet people are just regarding it as backward and not the future etc. Wonder how many people are on the BALPA website telling pilots their concerns over flying hours are nonsense? I find it utterly bonkers that the people who do the actual job day in day out are completely ignored and not those who have never driven a train in their lives believe they know better than those of us that actually do the job.

 

[bb21]

If certain people feel that adhering to their political beliefs overrides their responsibilities to their family, then if financial disaster would be a direct result of dogma over responsibility, the price that will be paid will be high.

Do you think this fight is all about political beliefs rather than anything else?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you think this fight is all about political beliefs rather than anything else?

From what I have read on this thread since inception, it seems a common trait of logic from those who do indeed see it as part of "The Struggle", unfortunately.

 

[Dave1987]

That is a situation that the guards themselves should be giving a great deal of thought to rather than the mortgage companies, as it will be no use whatsoever expecting the RMT to intercede when large numbers of house repossessions take place as the mortgagees find that after a certain period of time, they do not have the funds to pay off their mortgages, which is a situation that has occurred for many years now for a sizable number of the populace at large from all spectrums of the political divide.

If certain people feel that adhering to their political beliefs overrides their responsibilities to their family, then if financial disaster would be a direct result of dogma over responsibility, the price that will be paid will be high.

What an utterly heartless thing to say.

 

[gavin]

@PA

#Breaking Southern Railway is taking legal action to try to stop a series of strikes from tomorrow, RMT union says

 

[mandub]

Re the Northern Rail requirements.

Here is the ITT document - "after 1 January 2020 until
the end of the Franchise Term, will operate a minimum of 50 per cent of all
passenger train mileage under the driver’s full operational control. For the
avoidance of doubt this means that the train must be fitted with the necessary
equipment, the driver must be suitably trained, and all other necessary steps
must have been taken to enable the train to be operated in passenger
service without the need for a second member of staff on board. This
requirement does not oblige the Franchisee to reduce levels of on-train
staffing, and Delivery Plan 4.1 specifies requirements regarding the
continued provision of trained customer-facing staff."

Am I reading too much into the phrasing here to think it might leave wriggle room for the TOC to get 50% of routes/mileage "capable" of running DOO by 2020, but in practice carrying on with guards doing current door & safety duties (or guards closing doors etc).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What an utterly heartless thing to say.

Heartless, not at all. Just citing a fact of life that many families from both sides of the political divide have faced every year.

 

[LowLevel]

That is a situation that the guards themselves should be giving a great deal of thought to rather than the mortgage companies, as it will be no use whatsoever expecting the RMT to intercede when large numbers of house repossessions take place as the mortgagees find that after a certain period of time, they do not have the funds to pay off their mortgages, which is a situation that has occurred for many years now for a sizable number of the populace at large from all spectrums of the political divide.

If certain people feel that adhering to their political beliefs overrides their responsibilities to their family, then if financial disaster would be a direct result of dogma over responsibility, the price that will be paid will be high.

If the problem is that widespread Paul do you really not think that somewhere the system has gone really very wrong?

As someone from a distinctly right wing Conservative heartland, with an absolutely confusing (and that's just to me) array of thoughts and opinions on different issues from all elements of the political spectrum I'm extremely concerned about how things are. We've sleepwalked into a position where the world at large owes billions mainly to a vanishingly small percentage of the human population and we just keep rolling over the debt and interest. Would it really cause too much harm to actually say 'yeah, we're starting over as the system is broke - sorry if it causes you issues because you've set yourself up to make money out of a global problem'.

You don't have to be left wing, right wing or anything else to see that what we have isn't working for everyone and at some point that issue is going to have to be confronted and resolved, because at the minute it looks to me like I'll be dead before the country's economy is properly productive again (IE no debt or deficit) if it ever happens at all.

 

[Antman]

What an utterly heartless thing to say.

It seemed a perfectly reasonable comment to me quite honestly, any of us could potentially be out of work in five months let alone five years, such is life!

 

[Don King]

Personally I hope all the pro DOO types either lose their jobs or get swamped with additional duties on top of their job which lead to death or imprisonment if they screw them up.

Anyone who says DOO is safe who has never dispatched a train is utterly clueless. Why should I take repsonsibility for drunks / late runners and criminal behaviour on platforms as well as drive the damn things, just because some greedy corporatists want to smash unions?

If Horton / Grayling and the DFT want DOO then it should be them sacked or jailed if there is a PTI incident and the drivers absolved of all blame. If it is so safe they won't have to worry about their careers / pension or personal freedom will they...

Incidentally CCTV is the most dangerous method of dispatch possible. Zero field of vision nor view of the whole platform (which mirrors at least give), let alone no communication with passengers on the platform. Guards or RA by dispatch staff are the only safe method.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what about Watford tunnel then? Think guards were useless there? Kentish Town highlighted how much of a risk passenger self detraining is and even the RSSB have acknowledged the risks of passengers self detraining. There have been more incidents recently as well. Second members of staff on the train eleviates this risk by keeping passengers informed leaving the driver to get on with dealing with the situation in hand.

This debate has already been had on the Watford Tunnel threads, so to go over old ground would be futile, especially as the incident is still under investigation and no report has been produced for us to pore over.

Nonetheless, it would be helpful to know how having a guard on the FCC train at Kentish Town would have helped. The train was crush loaded and the driver had difficulty getting through the train. Passengers decided to detrain primarily because the environment on the train was intolerable, with a lack of information only a secondary factor. The PA system was inoperable. A guard would have been unable to open doors and put barriers up in every coach because there was a risk that passengers would detrain through the open door a situation he wouldn't have been able to supervise alone. The guard and driver alone would not have been able to move 700 people along the track in a controlled evacuation and keep all those people safe. I'd genuinely like to know what a single additional member of staff on board the FCC train would have been able to do.

 

[Antman]

Personally I hope all the pro DOO types either lose their jobs or get swamped with additional duties on top of their job which lead to death or imprisonment if they screw them up.

Anyone who says DOO is safe who has never dispatched a train is utterly clueless. Why should I take repsonsibility for drunks / late runners and criminal behaviour on platforms as well as drive the damn things, just because some greedy corporatists want to smash unions?

If Horton / Grayling and the DFT want DOO then it should be them sacked or jailed if there is a PTI incident and the drivers absolvef of all blame. If it is so safe they won't have to worry about their careers / pension or personal freedom will they...

This is just getting ridiculous now, I don't think anybody on here is particularly "pro DOO" they just see both sides of the argument.

 

[Don King]

Its not and never will be a safety argument...period. Unless you actually have hard statistics to prove this point...but given no-one has produced them yet at any point the whole safety argument is purely hypothetical and not a proven fact. Protecting jobs is one thing but this dispute had been fought on "money going to France" and a flawed safety argument. Most people would like a second member of staff on their train but that's not been the RMT argument until every other flawed argument failed, by which point we'd already seen their hidden agenda and so weren't interested. The RMT has got their members into this mess and cost them money and public support and thats not union bashing its fact.

So if it is not a safety argument then you will be happy if I propose that drivers face no action whatsoever if people are trapped and dragged or fall under trains, Chris McGhee should be compensated and his criminal record revoked and the trial against Martin Zee should be terminated, because after all train dispatch is simply no more of a safety risk than putting paper in a printer or sending an email...

 

[AlterEgo]

This is just getting ridiculous now, I don't think anybody on here is particularly "pro DOO" they just see both sides of the argument.

Indeed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if it is not a safety argument then you will be happy if I propose that drivers face no action whatsoever if people are trapped and dragged or fall under trains, Chris McGhee should be compensated and his criminal record revoked and the trial against Martin Zee should be terminated, because after all train dispatch is simply no more of a safety risk than putting paper in a printer or sending an email...

No, train dispatch, and operating trains generally is a dangerous business that requires a very high standard of care and attention.

McGee's prosecution was correct. He failed to take proper care. He dispatched the train when a girl was leaning against it. He was correctly sent to prison for her death. I'm afraid you have a duty of care to everyone, whether they're drunk, high, or stone cold sober.

Zee on the other hand seems much less clear. I haven't seen anything so far which makes me think he did anything wrong. His trial was pushed back until next year (I think). Part of me suspects the CPS are stalling for time to find a cool moment to drop the case.

 

[Don King]

Indeed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No, train dispatch, and operating trains generally is a dangerous business that requires a very high standard of care and attention.

McGee's prosecution was correct. He failed to take proper care. He dispatched the train when a girl was leaning against it. He was correctly sent to prison for her death. I'm afraid you have a duty of care to everyone, whether they're drunk, high, or stone cold sober.

And this is precisely why dispatch should be solely in the hands of a guard and dispatch staff.

Drivers have enough to do without more distractions especially when they do not have the field of vision, ability to position themselves where they see fit, nor communication with those on the platform, not to mention know who is on the train / station. Guards and dispatch staff can identify potentially dangerous situations, odd or impaired behaviour, or vulnerable passengers before something goes wrong. Something CCTV will never do.

 

[gtr driver]

Time we had pilot only planes on every route:

- Computer can fly the plane now

- Pilot is in touch with the ground all the time via radio

- Pilot can open and close the doors and there's on tarmac dispatch at every airport

- He's got a PA so he can communicate with the passengers

- No one can get on without a ticket

- If there's a disaster chances are extra staff won't be able to do anything anyway

- And ALL airports sell coffee and food so we don't even need them for that

Furthermore, it's an easy job, they just sit there and the computer does everything, so time we reduced the training time, the pay and make them work longer hours with less time between shifts.

 

[pompeyfan]

This is just getting ridiculous now, I don't think anybody on here is particularly "pro DOO" they just see both sides of the argument.

I don't even see how there is an argument FOR DOO for passengers, the people paying the wages won't see their ticket prices fall, and with more and more guards and drivers doing 'full crew working', in times of disruption having a train run DOO won't make any difference as the drivers will still be subject to the same rest rules as they are now.

Basically, the passengers will receive the same or less service (assuming GTR do hold up their promise of OBS on every train), for the same money, but have a higher risk of an incident and have fewer people capable of reacting in the event of an emergency. What exactly is in it for the people who pay the shareholders dividends?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

South West Trains
First ITT in the wake of the Southern battle and realisation that this isn't going to be easy? ITT adopts the non-committal line "[Initiatives] could include the implementation of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). Where DCO is proposed[...]". Both bidders would be wise to avoid the fight, but the level of competition might drive them to propose DCO on the 'red routes' (with little short term benefit) where 707s are being introduced and 455s could be replaced with new stock. If the DfT were wise, they'd probably find it easier to defer DCO on SWT territory until when Crossrail 2 essentially starts afresh. SWT Drivers and Guards have already won one DOO battle in the late 90s, their non DOO(P) T&Cs were hard fought, they'll be ready to defend themselves again.

Don't forget that a number of the "red routes" will be going over to LO at some point - do any LO trains have guards, even if it's just peak time only services?