Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Deepgreen]

Apologies for the reminder - can anyone clarify *why* the strikes are still going ahead ?. There's plenty of RMT members on here so, presumably, they all know - it's probably just me that has lost track of the reasoning behind it. Thanks.

As I understand it, because the RMT has advised its members to accept the new titles/contracts for now to avoid dismissals, but are still fighting the basis of thise contracts - hence the strikes.

 

[Bellbell]

Perhaps, being born in 1945, I was in my 30s in the 1970s when the Trades Union movement were endeavouring to have more power than any elected government and anarchy was never too far removed from the realities of life. You will most probably consider Derek "Red Robbo" Robinson, the bête noire of the British car industry, to have had no Communist leanings. Many on this thread were not born or were only children in the 1970s and cannot comment on an adult perception of the industrial disputes of that time period in the same way that I can and it is the memories of that period that immediately relate to the current style of industrial disputes in the rail industry.

So just to be clear, we can't comment on what you say because we don't have first experience of it? Like, say, someone who doesn't work on the railway couldn't comment on what's said by those of us who do?

I have no need to make sweeping statements about the RMT as their very own 21st century press releases, couched in a language of the 1970's time period that is meaningless in the 21st century, speak for themselves.

Wait, are you criticising the old fashioned language used by the RMT? Must. Bite. Tongue.

 

[XDM]

So if you were working for ASLEF, which high profile battle would you choose to flight?

I asked the question previously but didn't get an answer. Perhaps I need to ask it 14 times! Not that I have any technical faults here.

So why didn't they go for the last minute injunction? Did they think they would lose?

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Yes. You've got to remember that judges are human beings,with hates,loves & vices like the rest of us. That's why they have to dress in ermine & wigs,sit above mortals on a high platform & have an usher in the court whose only job is to frequently tell the rest of us to standup & sit down: i.e. to disguise the fact that they have to breath like the rest of us. Judges all having all been very good barristers, their career skill is representing people who they know are already murderers & selecting the arguments to get them off,or representing the CPS & using every skill & trick to get innocents like the Birmingham six convicted, even though they may doubt it. In other words by necessity they have no morality.
So depending on their world view, as judges they will be influenced by their emotions & use their considerable ex Barrister skills to present excellent reasons that stand up for their finding. An ex matrix chamber,(Cherie Booth's ex chamber),judge would have found reasons to find for ASLEF. Most other judges would have found against ASLEF. The appeal judge also found against ASLEF. But why should Govia risk going for an injunction now when they are in the final straight & the RMT runner is a basketcase? If they lost it would risk their DOO victory. But later when guards can't be brought back they may bite the bullet. Govia will be likely to win,but if not it won't bring back Southern guards who will be discarded pawns forgotten by RMT..
ASLEF,like most of us who loose, are smarting & wanting to have another go via a new strike. But why waste a war chest,someone said he'd burn 6 months post tax wages,on fighting a lost battle for guards? A serious attack on the pension fund, forcing route learning only by DVD & stopping road refreshers, fitters driving ecs from depot to station(as Isle of Wight fitters do into the platform at Ryde st Johns)& other changes, which all drivers can imagine,could lead to a serious erosion of driver's power, But to lose weeks of wages for RMT! I hope ASLEF big wigs are too clever to fall for that.

 

[Bellbell]

A poster mentioned earlier having saved sufficient funds that they could stage a 6 month walk out if necessary. Another basically commented me too we are ready when the come for us.

Just out of interest between now and any dispute with other TOCs regards DCO/DOO. Will there be a concerted effort to encourage all conductors/guards to do the best job they can.

Let me guess the answer. A very belligerent NO, AND WHY SHOULD WE?

I always do the best job I can. You've attempted to make this point so many times on this thread. The fact that some guards are not good at customer service (not their primary duty, for the nth time) doesn't mean we should all be fired. In the same way that bad social workers, police officers, doctors, bankers, teachers, cleaners, pilots don't mean we should get rid of all of them.

I'm honestly bewildered by your reliance on this argument. The whole crux of this issue is that safety will be compromised. To a lesser extent, customer service, particularly when trains operate without OBS. If you don't see a problem with the introduction of the OBS role you acknowledge that you think it's fine for trains to run completely DOO. Then there will be no contribution towards safety OR customer service from the OBS that isn't required on the service. Since you're OK with that, why do you care about the level of customer service a minority of guards give currently?

 

[infobleep]

Yes. You've got to remember that judges are human beings,with hates,loves & vices like the rest of us. That's why they have to dress in ermine & wigs,sit above mortals on a high platform & have an usher in the court whose only job is to frequently tell the rest of us to standup & sit down: i.e. to disguise the fact that they have to breath like the rest of us. Judges all having all been very good barristers, their career skill is representing people who they know are already murderers & selecting the arguments to get them off,or representing the CPS & using every skill & trick to get innocents like the Birmingham six convicted, even though they may doubt it. In other words by necessity they have no morality.
So depending on their world view, as judges they will be influenced by their emotions & use their considerable ex Barrister skills to present excellent reasons that stand up for their finding. An ex matrix chamber,(Cherie Booth's ex chamber),judge would have found reasons to find for ASLEF. Most other judges would have found against ASLEF. The appeal judge also found against ASLEF. But why should Govia risk going for an injunction now when they are in the final straight & the RMT runner is a basketcase? If they lost it would risk their DOO victory. But later when guards can't be brought back they may bite the bullet. Govia will be likely to win,but if not it won't bring back Southern guards who will be discarded pawns forgotten by RMT..
ASLEF,like most of us who loose, are smarting & wanting to have another go via a new strike. But why waste a war chest,someone said he'd burn 6 months post tax wages,on fighting a lost battle for guards? A serious attack on the pension fund, forcing route learning only by DVD & stopping road refreshers, fitters driving ecs from depot to station(as Isle of Wight fitters do into the platform at Ryde st Johns)& other changes, which all drivers can imagine,could lead to a serious erosion of driver's power, But to lose weeks of wages for RMT! I hope ASLEF big wigs are too clever to fall for that.

So which high profile battle should ASLEF fight next?

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[Barn]

Yes. Judges all having all been very good barristers, their career skill is representing people who they know are already murderers & selecting the arguments to get them off,or representing the CPS & using every skill & trick to get innocents like the Birmingham six convicted, even though they may doubt it. In other words by necessity they have no morality.

Putting aside everything else, there are other fields of law beside crime, you know...

 

[AlterEgo]

As I understand it, because the RMT has advised its members to accept the new titles/contracts for now to avoid dismissals, but are still fighting the basis of thise contracts - hence the strikes.

But that doesn't make any sense. The contracts are in, the members were advised to sign them by the RMT (under duress, no doubt, but sign them they did). Now they're striking because of the principles of the contract they signed? Or am I misunderstanding?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes. You've got to remember that judges are human beings,with hates,loves & vices like the rest of us. That's why they have to dress in ermine & wigs,sit above mortals on a high platform & have an usher in the court whose only job is to frequently tell the rest of us to standup & sit down: i.e. to disguise the fact that they have to breath like the rest of us. Judges all having all been very good barristers, their career skill is representing people who they know are already murderers & selecting the arguments to get them off,or representing the CPS & using every skill & trick to get innocents like the Birmingham six convicted, even though they may doubt it. In other words by necessity they have no morality.
So depending on their world view, as judges they will be influenced by their emotions & use their considerable ex Barrister skills to present excellent reasons that stand up for their finding. An ex matrix chamber,(Cherie Booth's ex chamber),judge would have found reasons to find for ASLEF. Most other judges would have found against ASLEF. The appeal judge also found against ASLEF. But why should Govia risk going for an injunction now when they are in the final straight & the RMT runner is a basketcase? If they lost it would risk their DOO victory. But later when guards can't be brought back they may bite the bullet. Govia will be likely to win,but if not it won't bring back Southern guards who will be discarded pawns forgotten by RMT.
ASLEF,like most of us who loose, are smarting & wanting to have another go via a new strike. But why waste a war chest,someone said he'd burn 6 months post tax wages,on fighting a lost battle for guards? A serious attack on the pension fund, forcing route learning only by DVD & stopping road refreshers, fitters driving ecs from depot to station(as Isle of Wight fitters do into the platform at Ryde st Johns)& other changes, which all drivers can imagine,could lead to a serious erosion of driver's power, But to lose weeks of wages for RMT! I hope ASLEF big wigs are too clever to fall for that.

This post makes literally no sense.

 

[XDM]

Putting aside everything else, there are other fields of law beside crime, you know...

And the same principles apply. If you despise Russian oligarchs you can use your ex barrister skills to find against them. If you like big BHS yachts you can find reasons to find for them. In many cases you may not care,but how any of us find we have been guided by our emotions when we did not realise it? I am not criticising judges, until we can put all the facts into a computer,let it go through algorithms & then automatically deduct the sum owed from the loser's account, I cannot think of a better way than using judges to decide. And more than anyone, judges are very skilled at marshalling the facts they want for their case & presenting them powerfully.

 

[Bookd]

I have read this thread from the start, and try to appreciate the points on both sides of the argument. It is now coming down to personal abuse - please desist!

 

[Tetchytyke]

But that doesn't make any sense. The contracts are in, the members were advised to sign them by the RMT (under duress, no doubt, but sign them they did). Now they're striking because of the principles of the contract they signed? Or am I misunderstanding?

Signing the contract under duress still means you can go back from it, or otherwise claim for constructive or unfair dismissal, but there is a very short period in which to do so. After that, you're deemed to have accepted the change, even if you did it under duress and even if your only other choice was a P45 and an ET1.

Striking about the duress would be legitimate, of course it would. Whether it is productive is, of course, an entirely different matter.

 

[Carlisle]

So which high profile battle should ASLEF fight next?

They're extremely well paid with generous rest periods and T&Cs so don't really need to fight any large high profile battles right now or is it a typically British cultural thing to constantly moan about our jobs regardless of how good we actually have it

 

[Dave1987]

They're extremely well paid with generous rest periods and T&Cs so don't really need to fight any large high profile battles right now or is a typically British cultural thing to constantly moan about our jobs regardless of how good we actually have it

now you are just trolling, pure and simple.

 

[AlterEgo]

Signing the contract under duress still means you can go back from it, or otherwise claim for constructive or unfair dismissal, but there is a very short period in which to do so. After that, you're deemed to have accepted the change, even if you did it under duress and even if your only other choice was a P45 and an ET1.

Thanks, that explains things a bit better.

 

[jon0844]

Mick Lynch from the RMT was on BBC News earlier still saying guardless trains aren't safe, and giving a lot of reasons/examples.

He wasn't asked why other lines operate a guardless service, but Mick did at least state it was the DfT behind all of this. Not that this comment was picked up by the interviewer, at least from the brief bit of the interview I heard.

 

[Carlisle]

now you are just trolling, pure and simple.

So you don't consider the 4 day working week many drivers now enjoy to be reasonably generous already ?

 

[Dave1987]

So you don't consider the 4 day working week many drivers now enjoy to be reasonably generous already ?

Not when you consider shift lengths, booking on times, how rosters change from very early mornings one week to very late night the next week. The 4 day week simply enables drivers to actually get enough rest so they can see their families. I've had days off before that are simply a process of converting from late nights to early mornings, spent the entire day feeling shattered and gone to bed very early for a 3am alarm call. Even in a 4 day week you still work 35 hrs a week you just have longer shift lengths. But don't let the truth get in the way will you! Ow and the T&C's unions have negotiated are there so drivers have some certainty as to what time they will be working each day. Or would you rather drivers didn't have adequate rest and never knew from one day to the next exactly what shifts they are working?

 

[HH]

Not when you consider shift lengths, booking on times, how rosters change from very early mornings one week to very late night the next week. The 4 day week simply enables drivers to actually get enough rest so they can see their families. I've had days off before that are simply a process of converting from late nights to early mornings, spent the entire day feeling shattered and gone to bed very early for a 3am alarm call. Even in a 4 day week you still work 35 hrs a week you just have longer shift lengths. But don't let the truth get in the way will you! Ow and the T&C's unions have negotiated are there so drivers have some certainty as to what time they will be working each day.

I know this will go around the houses, but many people work more than 8 hours 45 a day and 5 or more days a week. But OFC this includes some drivers who will also work a Sunday (and some of those have to).

 

[LowLevel]

Some of my rostered weeks on a 4 day Sundays outside contract are well over 50 hours. It's the price you pay for a few days off bunched together without being permanently subject to things like never being able to drink alcohol.

 

[physics34]

So you don't consider the 4 day working week many drivers now enjoy to be reasonably generous already ?

Because we do a 4 day week we do a 9-10 hour day.....so we get with one and and give with the other

 

[Antman]

Because we do a 4 day week we do a 9-10 hour day.....so we get with one and and give with the other

Excuse me whilst I get the violins out but some people have to do 9-10 hours or more 5-6 days a week just to get a decent wage.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have never seen a thread with so much union/TrainCrew bashing. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts forum. A Minority are certainly enthusiastic about bashing the actual people who work on the railway.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As for CCTV, buses in the 80s had CCTV systems in place, rudimentary as they were. And the cost of vandalism went through the roof. Stagecoach in Newcastle had to get rid of their entire fleet of modern double deckers because they were getting trashed so often in the early 2000s.

As an aside, though admittedly not really relevant to this thread, the last conductor operated route in the North East, OK Travel's flagship 724 Bishop Auckland -Newcastle route didnt dispose of their conductors until Go Ahead started sniffing around for a takeover in the late 1990s. When they retired reliability of the route slumped as driver only they were unable to maintain the timings. Eventually once Go Ahead took over the route was recast and diverted to run via Durham permanently as opposed to the evening only shared diversion and became 21, swapping out the former OK Leyland Olympians (Fx UEF. Kx YVN) for new (51 plate) Plaxton Presidents and absorbing the Newcastle-Durham leg of the 722/723 route shared with United (Arriva) The Durham Darlington leg of the 723 route became the current route 7.

Stagecoach Newcastle now run almost a universal fleet of single decker ALX300s and double decker ALX400's (think thats them), whereas Sunderland run single deckers. vandalism of the top deck isnt unique to Newcastle tho, only a few weeks ago on a 192 service I had to chastise a couple of youths who were smoking cannabis in front of my 4 year old daughter. (and its not been the first time I jave seen this on this route) When other people started abandoning the top deck and complained to the driver they made a hasty exit a couple of stops down. It seems to be universally accepted that the naughty seats are those at the rear of the top deck!

 

[Antman]

I have never seen a thread with so much union/TrainCrew bashing. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts forum. A Minority are certainly enthusiastic about bashing the actual people who work on the railway.

It's just a normal healthy debate, it would all be rather pointless if everybody agreed.

 

[the sniper]

Excuse me whilst I get the violins out but some people have to do 9-10 hours or more 5-6 days a week just to get a decent wage.

Don't be silly now. How was what he said anything other than just a statement of fact?!

 

[Antman]

Don't be silly now. How was what he said anything other than just a statement of fact?!

What that he has to do a 35-40 week?

 

[Carlisle]

As an aside, though admittedly not really relevant to this thread, the last conductor operated route in the North East, OK Travel's flagship 724 Bishop Auckland -Newcastle route didnt dispose of their conductors until Go Ahead started sniffing around for a takeover in the late 1990s. When they retired reliability of the route slumped as driver only they were unable to maintain the timings. Eventually the route was recast and diverted to run via Durham permanently as opposed to the evening only shared diversion and became 21, absorbing the Newcastle-Durham leg of the 722/723 route shared with United (Arriva) The Durham Darlington leg became the current route 7.

Just after National Bus was privatised in the 80s some of the new companies decided to reintroduce conductors and highlighted this fact on the front of their vehicles and in the marketing of their services, Solent Blue lLine was one example

 

[the sniper]

What that he has to do a 35-40 week?

Was he asking for sympathy?

 

[Antman]

Was he asking for sympathy?

You'll have to ask him that, I'm not sure what response he was expecting?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

OK's 724 was timetabled quicker than the Northern/united 723, and their olympians were known for some very spirited running between Pity Me and Chester le st, especially when trying to make up time!

 

[the sniper]

You'll have to ask him that, I'm not sure what response he was expecting?

No need to ask, there is no other sensible interpretation to take. Your sarcy comment was ill-judged.