Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Phil.]

However, the enforcement of first class, for example, has disappeared (and never actually appeared at all on Thameslink in my experience!), and I have not noticed any change in the regime on Southern now that some OBSs are supposedly in place to provide the much-vaunted passenger service.

There are also significant holes in the gated network - Redhill's platform 3 is a huge one where there is almost never any form of checking.

It can't be that difficult to install those remotely monitored gates like that are extant at Reigate.

 

[Don King]

Jobs may change but can you show evidence other than union scare stories that prove people are going to be put on the dole anytime soon as a result of any recent or proposed DOO scheme unless they personally choose to take voluntary severance, remember plenty of non DOO TOCs have cut back on onboard, station and other staff over the years, or do the unions just want to conveniently ignore that reality

And why does the job "change"? Corporate greed and union hating ideology. There is absolutely no reason as things stand to remove guards from trains, or dispatch staff for that matter, other than cost cutting - and the same people recommending or promoting this change end up with very lucrative jobs on the TOC director / RSSB / government revolving door.

If technology automated the dispatch process and there were secure walkways by all railway lines for passengers to self evacuate to, then there may be a technology argument. CCTV and putting the driver solely responsible (and liable) for everything on top of their own duties is not technology. It is cost cutting and nothing else. Drivers don't want it, guards don't want it, station staff don't want it, the bulk of managers don't want it and I have yet to hear any real support amongst the general public for axing guards and station staff. Even the directors of First Group and GNER backed the RMT stance in 2003 over the guards' role.

It is a change being driven for no good reason by some very greedy / nasty / incompetent people.

Furthermore staff have been made redundant due to DOO. Where are all the Gatwick Express welcome hosts? These used to operate with a guard, let alone a host. Where are the on train staff on the Thames Valley 165s, South Eastern 465s, Thameslink or London Tilbury and Southend network?

There was a poster on here who was a London Overground guard who had to go to Wales to get a platform job after redundancy.

 

[Deepgreen]

It can't be that difficult to install those remotely monitored gates like that are extant at Reigate.

One would think so, but, as with Reigate, they would be left open all the time that no-one is available to man/monitor them, so that presumably rules out any point in Redhill receiving them, given the amount of time the main entrance gates are left open!
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Maybe, but you forget that DfT has quite tough ticketless travel targets; when you add the fines for missing those then ignoring some routes gets much less attractive.

I can't see TOCs bidding to stop protecting revenue and the DfT turns the bid into commitments. That's why I feel confident that there will still be jobs; almost as confident as I am that there will be less than there are today.

No doubt GTR are exempt from those targets as they seem to be from most other forms of performance regulation and penalties.

 

[HH]

No doubt GTR are exempt from those targets as they seem to be from most other forms of performance regulation and penalties.

They are not exempt. It is possible that the targets have been (ahem) relaxed though. But I wasn't talking about GTR, I was talking about post-GTR, when the OBS role is no longer guaranteed.

 

[infobleep]

Interesting, didnt know this.

Its no surprise the negotiations broke down today. Southern say they plan to have a 2nd member of staff on every train that currently has but wants ability to run them without the 2nd member.

RMT want it guaranteed but Southern won't. Southern wont because they dont plan to have the 2nd member of staff in disruption if they get held up elsewhere.

Presumably the RMT suspect there will be times when the 2nd member of staff isnt even rostered on the train. So maybe the RMT should be pushing for the 2nd member of staff to be rostered and it only runs without them if they have become unavailable during their shift.

The RMT also should have been seeking a guarantee about the 2nd member of staff on the longer trains.

Its also odd because the OBS roll is meant to be to enhance customer experience, you need that customer experience more in times of disruption!

You also might be some safety critical help during times of disruption.

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Ok but times change and workers need to move too i currently work alongside folk that face actual redundancy rather than the Southern restructuring, so what's your answer to them ?

My answer is redundancy.

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[tsr]

It can't be that difficult to install those remotely monitored gates like that are extant at Reigate.

Redhill will have gatelines on all entrances under the rebuilding plans for the entrances/booking hall and car parks. These are currently being revised, though I believe the rear entrance is still the first part of the station expected to see redevelopment. Apparently this is now due for 2018 onwards. Maybe...!

I can't comment on station staffing proposals. Of course, do be aware that remote gatelines seem somewhat more prone to abuse than staffed ones, so the deterrent is a bit less anyway, even if they are properly staffed and in operation.

 

[thelem]

There is a lesson to be learned for ASLEF here, to be sure, which is don't agree to caveats to help someone out in disruption, because they'll use it to force you to do it all the time.

The RMT have certainly understood this lesson loud and clear, which is why they're not prepared to accept Connex Charlie's mealy-mouthed assurances at face value. The man clearly and obviously cannot be trusted, as ASLEF learned the expensive way.

Southern have stated that they have asked the RMT to work with them to produce a list of circumstances where it would be acceptable to run a train DOO, but the RMT wouldn't move past "never".

That may be the biggest place that the RMT have let down their members. If they had drawn up a restrictive list then they could have used that to prevent creeping DOO.

 

[infobleep]

Southern have stated that they have asked the RMT to work with them to produce a list of circumstances where it would be acceptable to run a train DOO, but the RMT wouldn't move past "never".

That may be the biggest place that the RMT have let down their members. If they had drawn up a restrictive list then they could have used that to prevent creeping DOO.

Was the same thing asked for in Scotland and did they refuse there?

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[sarahj]

Southern have stated that they have asked the RMT to work with them to produce a list of circumstances where it would be acceptable to run a train DOO, but the RMT wouldn't move past "never".

That may be the biggest place that the RMT have let down their members. If they had drawn up a restrictive list then they could have used that to prevent creeping DOO.

The problem with this is you end up with circumstances open to interpretation. As I mentioned earlier we have a set of local rules called DRI and CRI, but they are full of where possible and so on. This is what tripped up the drivers. There are times in a day that what delays a train can change, so train A may be delayed for one reason, but train B delayed due to the crew on train A being stuck. Which rule do you run to, the one affecting Train A or Train B?. Result, discussions, arguments and no-one is quite sure.


In addition. I know it's been dwarfed by the weeks events, but 1Fxx and 1Exx went fully DOO north of Haywards Heath on Monday. Trains are now splitting at HHE that have sometimes had no staff member on board checking tickets and making sure folks are in the right section, or even giving notice of passengers needed assistance. I was handed over a train on the monday at Lewes (12 F4 SEF/ M4 EBN / R4 Ore) and was told, only manned from the Heath, don't know if there are any punters needed assistance and had not had time to check. So my time on the train (which included a stop at Berwick) included a rush through the train to check for any wheelchairs and such, and quick look at first class. If there has been a wheel chair in the rear 4, for Lewes, well.....I would have found them for Polegate.(my new improved diagram did not mention the second split at Eastbourne, so I did not know, and more 'fun' there). Improved customer service??

 

[HH]

Was the same thing asked for in Scotland and did they refuse there?

Is it really relevant? Horses for courses...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Look at what the RMT did on the launch day of the new Northern franchise - they made reference to de-staffing of ticket offices when that had option had been dismissed as part of the consultation process and Arriva had won the franchise with a bid which included more ticket offices and longer staffing hours. Therefore, the RMT give the impression their press releases are poorly researched and they don't keep up-to-date with what is going on.....

Arriva do not have a contract to open more ticket offices. They have a contract to staff more stations, there is no information on how they intend to do this.

....I don't think there's been anything said about existing guards being sacked other than what the RMT think could possibly happen. If you tell me Arriva actually plan to sack you and replace you with someone who is currently a STM RPI who will have very limited training compared to what you have to reduce the franchise subsidy then I'll be more supportive of the RMT's stance than I am currently am....

Northern have been recruiting lots of Drivers for the forthcoming increases to service, particularly in light of the 'Connect' services that are due to implemented. Now, whilst I would have to concede that Guards are not put through the same length of training, there is currently no indication of an increase in the number of Guards for the new services and management are very quiet on the subject. The new units are apparently being built with both Guard and DOO dispatch facilities.

....Southern offered £2,000 last week, now thanks to the RMT they don't even have that, and are still where they started....

Realistically, Southern offered something they knew RMT would not agree to, it's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. They thought it would make them look like the good guys trying to find a solution, and turn people on the RMT for being "greedy" and wanting more.

As a ticket office clerk, I could earn £2,000 in a month. Guards earn more than me, so I don't think they've missed out on much.

And what did Arriva have to do with North West Trains/First North Western? You may remember Serco/Abellio's unsuccessful efforts to achieve harmonisation of traincrew T&Cs by reducing everyone to the worst combination of those which existed in the two previously separate franchises with minimal compensation. Traincrew west of the Pennines (ie who never worked for Arriva) overwhelmingly rejected them. You would do well to remember that there is a lot more to Northern than just Yorkshire, regardless of the attitude sometimes shown by Northern's head office staff.

We need a like button....

....ETA I cannot see the OBS role having any sort of longevity. It's not needed to run the business, a subcontracted gate dragon can do most of the revenue protection at half the cost, and the savings only kick in if you reduce headcount. As people leave they won't be replaced. Wages won't rise, so more will leave. And then they'll get rid of the rest in about 2020.

Sounds about right. Those who do get to "keep their Guards wage" will probably be held at that wage until they leave or the OBS pay catches up. Eventually RPIs will be contracted out

Maybe, but you forget that DfT has quite tough ticketless travel targets; when you add the fines for missing those then ignoring some routes gets much less attractive.

I can't see TOCs bidding to stop protecting revenue and the DfT turns the bid into commitments. That's why I feel confident that there will still be jobs; almost as confident as I am that there will be less than there are today.

Part of Arriva's bid for the Northern Franchise was introducing 55 "Travel Safe Officers", which have now been brought in under STM contract. What they failed to mention was that they are not supplementing the existing 22 Rail Response Officers, they replace them, so it's only really 33 new staff, and they're not even directly employed by Northern.

Another part of their bid was promising to get rid of "zero-hour contracts", but certain members of management have already commented to staff that they've already done everything they can as Northern doesn't have any "zero-hour" staff.

The devil, as they say, is in the detail. Making things look better than they actually are.

 

[Deepgreen]

They are not exempt. It is possible that the targets have been (ahem) relaxed though. But I wasn't talking about GTR, I was talking about post-GTR, when the OBS role is no longer guaranteed.

Exactly. While noting your reference to post-GTR (assuming they are not renewed - but nothing would surprise me!), perception at the moment is that GTR/Southern can pretty much do as they like without fear of any form of performance penalties.

 

[HH]

It will be post-GTR as the franchise will be split up. Hopefully it's also post-Govia, but that's in the lap of the DfT...

 

[Antman]

It is a change being driven for no good reason by some very greedy / nasty / incompetent people.

I appreciate that you don't agree with the changes but isn't this a little bit OTT?
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Redhill will have gatelines on all entrances under the rebuilding plans for the entrances/booking hall and car parks. These are currently being revised, though I believe the rear entrance is still the first part of the station expected to see redevelopment. Apparently this is now due for 2018 onwards. Maybe...!

I can't comment on station staffing proposals. Of course, do be aware that remote gatelines seem somewhat more prone to abuse than staffed ones, so the deterrent is a bit less anyway, even if they are properly staffed and in operation.

Definitely, those at Gravesend are often left open to avoid them being damaged by people forcing them open, surely all gatelines should be staffed for safety reasons as much as anything else?

 

[Carlisle]

My answer is redundancy.
S

So for the quiet life we should simply cave in to all the Unions demands,and allow workers in essential services armed with the the power to cause serious public disruption through strikes to get more and more for doing less or the same amount whilst merely turning a blind eye to everyone else

 

[Chrisgr31]

So for the quiet life we should simply cave in to all the Unions demands,and allow workers in essential services armed with the the power to cause serious public disruption through strikes to get more and more for doing less or the same amount whilst merely turning a blind eye to everyone else

Or we should admire those that have unions to represent them.

My political beliefs would not normally support unions but I do think we have reached a point to far in trying to provide services at the minimum cost

 

[HH]

Definitely, those at Gravesend are often left open to avoid them being damaged by people forcing them open, surely all gatelines should be staffed for safety reasons as much as anything else?

But I've seen some very convincing arguments in bids for "remote manning" of gatelines. Trouble is there's remote and there's remoooooote...

 

[infobleep]

Is it really relevant? Horses for courses...

I think it is relevant. After all its about what GTR ask.

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The problem with this is you end up with circumstances open to interpretation. As I mentioned earlier we have a set of local rules called DRI and CRI, but they are full of where possible and so on. This is what tripped up the drivers. There are times in a day that what delays a train can change, so train A may be delayed for one reason, but train B delayed due to the crew on train A being stuck. Which rule do you run to, the one affecting Train A or Train B?. Result, discussions, arguments and no-one is quite sure.


In addition. I know it's been dwarfed by the weeks events, but 1Fxx and 1Exx went fully DOO north of Haywards Heath on Monday. Trains are now splitting at HHE that have sometimes had no staff member on board checking tickets and making sure folks are in the right section, or even giving notice of passengers needed assistance. I was handed over a train on the monday at Lewes (12 F4 SEF/ M4 EBN / R4 Ore) and was told, only manned from the Heath, don't know if there are any punters needed assistance and had not had time to check. So my time on the train (which included a stop at Berwick) included a rush through the train to check for any wheelchairs and such, and quick look at first class. If there has been a wheel chair in the rear 4, for Lewes, well.....I would have found them for Polegate.(my new improved diagram did not mention the second split at Eastbourne, so I did not know, and more 'fun' there). Improved customer service??

Did 1Fxx and 1Exx run on Tuesday to Thursday north of Haywards Heath, now that it has gone fully DOO and if not why not? It's fully DOO. I'd rather it wasn't of course.

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[HH]

Part of Arriva's bid for the Northern Franchise was introducing 55 "Travel Safe Officers", which have now been brought in under STM contract. What they failed to mention was that they are not supplementing the existing 22 Rail Response Officers, they replace them, so it's only really 33 new staff, and they're not even directly employed by Northern.

Travel Safe Officers. Ah, that old chestnut (gets all misty eyed and nostalgic). I haven't worked out whether Arriva is incompetent in it's Customer Service plans or whether it is actually very cunning. Certainly they tend to promise the earth on a shoestring. I have no doubt that they then have to go through all sorts of contortions to both balance the books and deliver their commitments.

You mustn't forget that the winning bid doesn't have to excel in every area; as long as there's a good price, with not too much risk, and they score well on train planning and rolling stock, they'll be in with a good chance of winning the bid, despite their CS plans being marginal. It's all down to weighting...

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I think it is relevant. After all its about what GTR ask.

Every negotiation is different; Abellio are not Govia and, most importantly, TS are not DfT. It seems highly unlikely that the same approach was necessary. Still, it's a fair question; maybe someone knows the answer.

 

[Don King]

I appreciate that you don't agree with the changes but isn't this a little bit OTT?

No it is perfectly fair. The attitude of Southern / DFT / Wilkinson / Grayling / Perry and so on is a mixture of greed, outright nastiness and incompetency.
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So for the quiet life we should simply cave in to all the Unions demands,and allow workers in essential services armed with the the power to cause serious public disruption through strikes to get more and more for doing less or the same amount whilst merely turning a blind eye to everyone else

I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

 

[swt class 450]

I have had some good unofficial "Meet The Manager" sessions over the past three days with some of the management Guards. I made them aware of all my concerns about DOO and why they should listen to the RMT and keep Guards. I know they probably dont care what passengers think though. But it was good to talk to some managers face to face.

 

[gtr driver]

No it is perfectly fair. The attitude of Southern / DFT / Wilkinson / Grayling / Perry and so on is a mixture of greed, outright nastiness and incompetency.
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I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

Top post. Exactly my feelings and my experience of my colleagues too. Shame so many won't listen but have their view seemingly set in stone by what's happened in the past.

 

[BestWestern]

Southern have stated that they have asked the RMT to work with them to produce a list of circumstances where it would be acceptable to run a train DOO, but the RMT wouldn't move past "never".

That may be the biggest place that the RMT have let down their members. If they had drawn up a restrictive list then they could have used that to prevent creeping DOO.

No, they couldn't. This would presumably be an agreement similar to the 12 car agreement that GTR had a judge tear up as worthless and batter Aslef for half a million quid with?!

GTR & the DfT want trains to be DOO. They don't want Guards, either still employed as Guards or 'migrated' to something else. They don't want anything more than the slimmest bare minimum they can get away with, because their only aim is to cut costs as much as they possibly can. There is even a document from the RSSB which sets out the 'pathway' to DOO and lists the varying alleged cost benefits. That is the sole intended outcome, widespread DOO and Guards on the dole queue. This really is not hard to grasp, I struggle with the suggestion that some apparently cannot see it!

Once the OBS mission is complete, GTR can do whatever they like. The Drivers cannot strike. And the downtrodden OBS grade can p*ss into the wind all they want, the management will barely even acknowledge it. Connex Charlie himself will probably come and personally spit in their dinners. The management of this outfit do not care, they have excelled at treating their own employees like canine excrement, and you'd need to be a fool of biblical proportions to think that their promises have any value whatsoever.

 

[JamesTT]

No, they couldn't. This would presumably be an agreement similar to the 12 car agreement that GTR had a judge tear up as worthless and batter Aslef for half a million quid with?!

GTR & the DfT want trains to be DOO. They don't want Guards, either still employed as Guards or 'migrated' to something else. They don't want anything more than the slimmest bare minimum they can get away with, because their only aim is to cut costs as much as they possibly can. There is even a document from the RSSB which sets out the 'pathway' to DOO and lists the varying alleged cost benefits. That is the sole intended outcome, widespread DOO and Guards on the dole queue. This really is not hard to grasp, I struggle with the suggestion that some apparently cannot see it!

Once the OBS mission is complete, GTR can do whatever they like. The Drivers cannot strike. And the downtrodden OBS grade can p*ss into the wind all they want, the management will barely even acknowledge it. Connex Charlie himself will probably come and personally spit in their dinners. The management of this outfit do not care, they have excelled at treating their own employees like canine excrement, and you'd need to be a fool of biblical proportions to think that their promises have any value whatsoever.

So why bother introducing the OBS role why not make all guards redundant or displace them if they are not required?

 

[the sniper]

So why bother introducing the OBS role why not make all guards redundant or displace them if they are not required?

There are various reason to take this path. If they were just to make the Guards redundant it would have been a very expensive exercise, would have resulted in even more disruptive and determined industry action (I think the DfT thought OBS implementation would be easier than it has been) and would have been a much harder 'sell' to the public.

The way they're doing it is the smart way. You push the Guards into the OBS grade. You can pass this off to the public as being inconsequential to staff and beneficial to passengers. There will inevitably be a larger amount of natural wastage in the OBS grade, with people demoralised by having been downgraded and ending up with a worse job, so over the years the number employed will come down fairly quickly. You haven't had to pay anything to get rid of them. If they still have more on the payroll than they desire/require or want to maintain (they'll want the minimum necessary), you can then go about a restructuring, aiming for a much smaller 'more efficient' revenue department on less favourable T&Cs (a new role being given a 'Revenue Manager' title and grade, to justify this), making the rest redundant if they won't accept yet lower grade jobs, if available. Obviously the terms of the redundancy don't have to be overly good, certainly not what would have been offered to Guards being made redundant, as the OBS have no power to get a better deal or influence anything.

 

[LowLevel]

So why bother introducing the OBS role why not make all guards redundant or displace them if they are not required?

The RSSB answered that for you in their own case study. I can't quote it word for word as the cheeky little scamps have taken it off their website but essentially it was 'best returns on DOO come from making the guards redundant, however to avoid social issues in areas affected caused by making large numbers of people redundant at once, they might be redeployed to other roles to spread the impact'.

Their methodology assumes up to 20 years to 'achieve' this but the hope is that they end up with either a slimmer workforce they can pick and choose to do what they want or that the former guards find other jobs and avoid the 'social' issues caused by slinging comparatively well paid staff on the dole (defaulted mortgages, loss of spending in the local economy, claiming benefits, little things like suicide).

I'm no arm waving fist banging amateur at this and despite being a humble train guard I have had previous careers and am far more in touch with the matter than you might think. I made a choice to get out of them because they were unpleasant and I wanted a job I enjoy, which, ironically, someone now wants to take away from me.

 

[Minilad]

I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

Bravo, Sir. Absolutely true. Every last word of it

 

[Robertj21a]

No it is perfectly fair. The attitude of Southern / DFT / Wilkinson / Grayling / Perry and so on is a mixture of greed, outright nastiness and incompetency.
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I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

A good post, full of commonsense. I doubt, however, that you would have got away with it some weeks ago when your more vociferous and militant union colleagues were adamant that they would *never* do things which have now been accepted (albeit unwillingly). It's posts like yours that might have assured others on the forum that not everyone in the Rail industry still goes about needing to love Arthur Scargill......

 

[NSEFAN]

It's posts like yours that might have assured others on the forum that not everyone in the Rail industry still goes about needing to love Arthur Scargill......

You're the only one making that assertion here. I don't know what the heck Scargill has to do with a dispute between GTR/DfT and the train guards...

 

[LowLevel]

We are generally speaking quite chilled out and sensible nowadays. The RMT's press release rhetoric does my head in (something I moan about frequently as a member) but reflects little of what actually goes on day to day on the ground. I even know of one RMT guard's local level council which is made up entirely of members of the Conservative party including a local elections candidate of theirs.

I mostly just wish to be left alone to do the job I'm good at. Change management on the railway is rubbish so naturally I strike out at anything if it increases the risk of me losing my job at some stage.

Generally I like to think I'm mostly obliging and progressive, I just don't agree that progressive means getting rid of a role I do well and see the value of every day.