TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[AM9]

This. They're no longer sufficient to meet the requirements of the ITT without yet further work.

While the sensible decision for the ROSCOs is to probably take some of the sunk cost on the chin, they're not yet in that kind of mindset. New trains will be an almost no-brainer IMO.

Maybe with the plummeting pound and it's potential to trigger inflation, the era of cheap new trains is coming to an end.

 

[HH]

Maybe with the plummeting pound and it's potential to trigger inflation, the era of cheap new trains is coming to an end.

That may well be the case, but bidders for SW will already have agreed an amount, either in Euros (say) or hedged the currency, so I don't see this saving the 455/456.

 

[hwl]

This. They're no longer sufficient to meet the requirements of the ITT without yet further work.

While the sensible decision for the ROSCOs is to probably take some of the sunk cost on the chin, they're not yet in that kind of mindset. New trains will be an almost no-brainer IMO.

Given that the 455s and 456s can hang around post 2020 with the work already underwaythe bidders aren't bullied into delivery in hurry so could have a later in franchise slower delivery schedule than Anglia's ASAP!

The interesting thing will be the future of some of SE networkers too...

 

[HH]

There'll be a lot of interesting things on the SE franchise I think. I hope the next franchise finds a better way to make use of the Javelins for example.

 

[Antman]

There'll be a lot of interesting things on the SE franchise I think. I hope the next franchise finds a better way to make use of the Javelins for example.

What did you have in mind? Just curious.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Given that the 455s and 456s can hang around post 2020 with the work already underwaythe bidders aren't bullied into delivery in hurry so could have a later in franchise slower delivery schedule than Anglia's ASAP!

The interesting thing will be the future of some of SE networkers too...

Would the roof structure of 465s permit the installation of pan wells without compromising the crash structure? Looking at pics of them it doesn't look like they have a plated over pan well

 

[HH]

What did you have in mind? Just curious.

Do you know how they operate at the moment? Around half their mileage is spent at ~40mph (a lot of it carrying fresh air). You might think that's not exactly the best use of hi-speed rolling stock. You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

I'm hoping that the bidders can find something better to do with them.

 

[Emblematic]

Would the roof structure of 465s permit the installation of pan wells without compromising the crash structure? Looking at pics of them it doesn't look like they have a plated over pan well

The welded aluminium construction would make this very difficult to achieve successfully. As the 465s were never designed for AC use there will be no provision for the transformer, HV wiring or anything else - just because it was done for the later AC Networkers doesn't mean it can be retrofitted. And with all of the recent orders for new trains, particularly the complete renewal of the AGA fleet, there will shortly be a surplus of older AC units, so point at all looking to convert similarly-aged DC stock.

 

[Antman]

Do you know how they operate at the moment? Around half their mileage is spent at ~40mph (a lot of it carrying fresh air). You might think that's not exactly the best use of hi-speed rolling stock. You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

I'm hoping that the bidders can find something better to do with them.

That's inevitable once they come off the high speed line, I can't see that changing significantly.

 

[HH]

Nothing in this world is inevitable, except death and taxes.

How they're used now wasn't what was originally planned. It's a mess, with guards not even knowing what their train does, so no chance for Joe Public.

 

[Goldfish62]

The decisions to re-traction and update for 2020 were taken well before DfT issued the latest ITT, that's the fundamental problem.

And as has been explained before the retractioning would have taken place regardless. It is being done to extend the maintenance intervals so that a new depot is not required for the Class 707s.

 

[Antman]

Nothing in this world is inevitable, except death and taxes.

How they're used now wasn't what was originally planned. It's a mess, with guards not even knowing what their train does, so no chance for Joe Public.

What is a mess? Surely they are on board managers rather than guards as they have no door opening and closing duties? What are they supposed to know about their train that they don't know?

 

[theironroad]

I see tfl and the mayor are back in the news today saying they can dramatically improve inner suburban rail services like they did with london overground and creating thousands of jobs and houses with it.

The mayor needs to be careful here with what he proposes as failed promises can come back to bite at reelection time.

London overground was an under utilised Cinderella service which euston aside doesn't terminate at a central London terminal.

Quite how the mayor's office think they can get longer, more frequent trains into Waterloo in the morning rush hour is beyond me with him spending billions on automatic train operation upgrades to stock and track and I'd imagine it's a similar picture at other central London terminals.

Yes new trains, new paint, more station staff has all helped london overground turn around to provide a good service, but it won't be that simple for a lot of other inner suburban services.

 

[matt_world2004]

I see tfl and the mayor are back in the news today saying they can dramatically improve inner suburban rail services like they did with london overground and creating thousands of jobs and houses with it.

The mayor needs to be careful here with what he proposes as failed promises can come back to bite at reelection time.

London overground was an under utilised Cinderella service which euston aside doesn't terminate at a central London terminal.

Quite how the mayor's office think they can get longer, more frequent trains into Waterloo in the morning rush hour is beyond me with him spending billions on automatic train operation upgrades to stock and track and I'd imagine it's a similar picture at other central London terminals.

Yes new trains, new paint, more station staff has all helped london overground turn around to provide a good service, but it won't be that simple for a lot of other inner suburban services.

It runs into Liverpool street as well and tfl rail will run into paddington.

 

[theironroad]

It runs into Liverpool street as well and tfl rail will run into paddington.

I'm pretty sure london overground don't run into Liverpool St and that it was the mayor is making his claims against.

The tfl rail services from Liverpool St to Shenfield were never london overground and they are just babysitting (when they took them from Abellio ) them until crossrail is finalised.

What services will tfl run into paddington terminal?

 

[87015]

I'm pretty sure london overground don't run into Liverpool St and that it was the mayor is making his claims against.

Err LO operate 8tph out of Liverpool St off-peak on the West side. With what you describe as "paint and staff" all the performance (as in both PPM and soft issue) scores are massively improved on the AGA operation.

 

[Envy123]

I wonder if TfL will also improve local connectivity to future LO stations?

New Southgate has much less bus routes than the nearby Arnos Grove, and people who live in the nearby Whetstone area prefer to go all the way by bus to Arnos Grove. Rather than bus then 5 minute walk to New Southgate.

 

[Antman]

I'm pretty sure london overground don't run into Liverpool St and that it was the mayor is making his claims against.

The tfl rail services from Liverpool St to Sheffield were never london overground and they are just babysitting (when they took them from Abellio ) them until crossrail is finalised.

What services will tfl run into paddington terminal?

I think you mean Shenfield rather than Sheffield?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Err LO operate 8tph out of Liverpool St off-peak on the West side. With what you describe as "paint and staff" all the performance (as in both PPM and soft issue) scores are massively improved on the AGA operation.

I can't say I've noticed any great improvement.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm pretty sure london overground don't run into Liverpool St and that it was the mayor is making his claims against.

The tfl rail services from Liverpool St to Sheffield were never london overground and they are just babysitting (when they took them from Abellio ) them until crossrail is finalised.

What services will tfl run into paddington terminal?

It does run into Liverpool street and when tfl rail take over heathrow connect they will run into paddington mainkine and crossrail will run into paddington mainline during disruption and engineering works,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you mean Shenfield rather than Sheffield?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I can't say I've noticed any great improvement.

Takes more than 15 months to buy and build new trains. This is what the first overground trains looked like a few years after launch, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k8sivCsFT...U/P_oH7GsFGww/s1600/313103_at_Stratford_2.jpg

 

[Antman]

It does run into Liverpool street and when tfl rail take over heathrow connect they will run into paddington mainkine and crossrail will run into paddington mainline during disruption and engineering works,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Takes more than 15 months to buy and build new trains.

I'm sure it does, so what are these improvements that were previously mentioned?

 

[theironroad]

Err LO operate 8tph out of Liverpool St off-peak on the West side. With what you describe as "paint and staff" all the performance (as in both PPM and soft issue) scores are massively improved on the AGA operation.

My error. Thanks for pointing out.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm sure it does, so what are these improvements that were previously mentioned?

What improvements you mean apart from gatelines, first to last train staffing at every station cheaper fares and all day network wide freedom pass acceptance,

These are what the trains on the east anglia lines are going to be like

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/07/22/11/Overground2018.jpg

 

[theironroad]

I think you mean Shenfield rather than Sheffield?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.

Haha, thanks, now corrected. Though maybe Liverpool St to Sheffield could be a new flow for loco hauled 442 operations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What improvements you mean apart from gatelines, first to last train staffing at every station cheaper fares and all day network wide freedom pass acceptance,

I agree in these areas london overground did make big improvements overall but the mayor's office assertions that allowing LO to take over all inner suburban services is going to mean no trains break down, no signals fail and capacity is going to double are just unrealistic. A tfl rail integrated inner suburban network is a good idea but they need to manage expectations because changing the operator cannot solve all the daily issues that hamper a good train service.

 

[matt_world2004]

Haha, thanks, now corrected. Though maybe Liverpool St to Sheffield could be a new flow for loco hauled 442 operations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree in these areas london overground did make big improvements overall but the mayor's office assertions that allowing LO to take over all inner suburban services is going to mean no trains break down, no signals fail and capacity is going to double are just unrealistic. A tfl rail integrated inner suburban network is a good idea but they need to manage expectations because changing the operator cannot solve all the daily issues that hamper a good train service.

I don't think the mayor promised no trains will ever break down or that there will never be any signal failures just that the services would be more reliable now. And even if the improvements listed above were the only improvements offered in the service that's still a better deal for the public than they are getting now .

A blind donkey could provide a faster more reliable train service than southern now.

 

[plcd1]

The Mayor has today published the TfL business case for taking over more suburban rail services. This is a pretty substantive document, 99 pages, with costs, benefits, extra train numbers and future service patterns and frequencies all set out. The investment needed to support the improved services is also set out. This has gone to the DfT so it looks like something is going on - there is also a pretty decent list of supporters and supporting letters.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf

I know the forum rule is to cut and paste the document but 99 pages is rather too much so I hope I can be excused from breaking the rule on this occasion. Here is the summary.

1 Summary

1.1 The purpose of this paper is to set out the case for further transfer of responsibility for the provision of some rail passenger services from the
Department for Transport (DfT) to the Mayor and Transport for London (TfL).

Significant improvement in the quality of services for passengers

1.2 Further devolution of inner suburban rail services within London will deliversignificant economic, financial and customer benefits by 2020 through:
 More reliable and better services for passengers, delivered through a concession contracting model where the provider of train services
focuses purely on reliability and customer satisfaction
 TfL’s proven ability to work with Network Rail sharing resources between them and London Underground
 Seamless and integrated fares, ticketing, branding and information for passengers across public transport services in London, which not only
encourages more people to use public transport, but also reduces fare evasion
 A greater ability to plan and deliver the cost effective provision of public transport and associated projects across all local services, including
buses, walking and cycling

1.3 Taken together, one impact will be to generate additional demand and revenue. On the recently devolved West Anglia services this has increased 27 per cent since devolution in May 2015. TfL expects an increase of 14 per cent in southeast London. The additional revenue can itself be re-invested in service enhancements

1.4 The package has a quantified benefit cost ratio of 4.3 : 1, based on railway passenger benefits, which shows that this offers high value for money.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm pretty sure london overground don't run into Liverpool St and that it was the mayor is making his claims against.

The tfl rail services from Liverpool St to Shenfield were never london overground and they are just babysitting (when they took them from Abellio ) them until crossrail is finalised.

What services will tfl run into paddington terminal?

my bold

I am 100% sure that you are wrong!

See:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-overground-network-map.pdf

 

[theironroad]

my bold

I am 100% sure that you are wrong!

See:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-overground-network-map.pdf

See my post at 12:10!

 

[Wolfie]

See my post at 12:10!

My bad... I really must read to the end of the thread before posting...

 

[philthetube]

What improvements you mean apart from gatelines, first to last train staffing at every station cheaper fares and all day network wide freedom pass acceptance,

These are what the trains on the east anglia lines are going to be like

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/07/22/11/Overground2018.jpg

whenever I see staffing mentioned from first to last trains I wonder about knockholt.

 

[Antman]

whenever I see staffing mentioned from first to last trains I wonder about knockholt.

And Sundridge Park:cry: