Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[BestWestern]

Are you seriously saying that if the union could have said each guard takes X% of their salary in revenue. That reports from passengers say that they provide an excellent service plus the safety aspect. The DFT would be so adamant in extending DOO

Yes!!

Guards already take money and passengers already value them (other than your good self, of course). Neither of those things are part of the equation.

Let me try a different angle you are a passenger you have 3 choices of system

a/ A belligerent person with an attitude problem sits in the rear cab and adds an extra level of safety when a train leaves the platform and can assist in an emergency

b/ A customer focussed person walks up and down the train providing information selling tickets, making sure people are not acting like morons but they are not involved in the despatch process. which does add a level of risk

c/A customer focussed person, who is happy to help passengers in anyway they can. Sell tickets provide information make sure people are not being numpties. Plus they are able to assist in an emergency and despatch trains

I know which I would chose

I think the biggest attitude problem in these parts is is firmly yours my good man. There is one hell of a 'chip on shoulder' issue going on, but the one I can see doesn't belong to Guards. As I said previously, it's getting rather tiresome. Could we interest you in a different thread (or forum...) ??

Why would a 'belligerent' Guard - which clearly, according to your expertise, every single one is - suddenly become a customer service superstar when they've been demoted, demotivated, and left in no doubt that they are a turd on the DfT's shoe? Do you really think that sets people up to value their job?!

 

[tsr]

Theoretically the conductors can take as much, or more, revenue as OBSs. Indeed I seem to remember one document about the beginning of this year which said that it was possible that some OBSs would work in pairs/teams etc. on some services requiring extra revenue support. That idea seems to have gone quiet for now, probably pending decisions on diagrams and whether GTR can commit enough staff to do that.

The fact of the matter is that the depots keeping conductors are very varied in terms of revenue collection statistics and it's certainly not something which correlates to any guarantee of a member of staff being onboard (ie. a "traditional" conductor).

 

[HH]

Their findings revealed:
* The need for on board Passenger Information Systems to be both visual and audible. On at least one journey, the audio message was not working. This placed the blind passenger at a disadvantage
* The use of Class 313 trains built in 1976-77 which had no toilet facilities on board; a particular concern to older travellers
* The absence of a ramp at least at one station (Fishbourne), despite the platform having been widened to accommodate wheelchair users
* Numerous occasions where ramps were incorrectly deployed without positioning lugs to properly secure them in place
* Lack of platform staff, and a reliance on guards to assist travellers with restricted mobility
* An over-reliance on PRM booking ahead, which is often unreliable and unrealistic in a real-life journey scenario
* Poorly sited Help Points on stations, unhelpful operators and a Call Centre situated outside the UK where it is unreasonable to expect operators to know why stations are unstaffed

Looking at this list it's clear that many of these problems exist DOO or not. Some of them are unfortunate, but don't show that Southern are doing anything legally wrong. The important one is around help at stations, whether it's provided by station staff or guards. Reducing the accessibility would be an issue, so I agree that OBS would need to be diagrammed where such a situation existed.

But then I've always said that; where they might make a saving is by not having an OBS on for the whole route, e.g. if there was a part of the service where every station is staffed. Retaining the role doesn't mean that there won't be reductions over time.

 

[tsr]

Looks like agencies are recruiting staff for the OBS role, both on a permanent and fixed-term basis, firstly as per this post (over in the Careers sub-forum):

Got an email from GTR about the OBS Role, stating;

"your application is being held and will be progressed as and when we have requirements and training arranged for the appropriate depots near your location. Separate to this we now have a number of positions within this role as a Fixed Term Contract for a 12 month period with an immediate start. If you are successful, you will neeed to start working for us immediately.

It also states that its being managed on behalf on Ontrak Recruitment.

...and secondly as demonstrated in links like this one: http://ata-recruitment.co.uk/jobs/customer-service-advisor-2147587/

 

[Anvil1984]

Looks like agencies are recruiting staff for the OBS role, both on a permanent and fixed-term basis, firstly as per this post (over in the Careers sub-forum):



...and secondly as demonstrated in links like this one: http://ata-recruitment.co.uk/jobs/customer-service-advisor-2147587/

So 12 month fixed term agency contracts, well that's not going to do anything to calm the situation down. You would have thought OBS would be managed in house on a permanent contract

 

[HowardGWR]

If the drivers are on board with DOO(P) then there isn't much the guards can do to stop it. But the drivers are not on board with it. This is why the dispute at GWR has gone quiet- I assume GWR originally thought they could get DOO(P) in through the Thames Turbo drivers, in a similar way to GTR have managed it- and why the dispute at VTEC is about VTEC trying to make guards also take on the role of the catering crew leader (pushing them out of the job instead).

That role would equate to flight chief steward, a role I think should be standard on Inter-City trains, thus safety-trained as well. Indeed, a chief steward on a plane will tell you that cabin staff are there primarily for the safety of pax.

I have no idea how the guard on my Brighton to London Tuesday 18th 1823 from Gatwick, 1758 ex Brighton (thus inter-city, er, ???), running very late, could have assisted if a drunken lout had started running amok in my coach, or any other mishap or crash, as the whole train was rammed to the gills, as indeed all trains seemed to be, including the Gatwick Expresses that I observed en route.

Admittedly it was a strike day, so perhaps the crush was explicable. What impressed me was the professionalism and courtesy the guard displayed in his announcements. I don't think English was his first language, but his messages were delivered slowly and clearly and preceded by 'Ladies and Gentlemen' which form of address I always admire being used.

There have been comments about Southern Guards remaining closeted in their compartments. I would have liked to see how our guard could have managed to emerge from his, given the crush.

 

[455refurb]

Press Association: Southern strike on 3rd November suspended by the RMT following a request from the British Legion.

https://twitter.com/PA/status/789070349845532673

 

[Deepgreen]

So 12 month fixed term agency contracts, well that's not going to do anything to calm the situation down. You would have thought OBS would be managed in house on a permanent contract

Not when the roles are transparently not going to be permanent!

 

[BestWestern]

That role would equate to flight chief steward, a role I think should be standard on Inter-City trains, thus safety-trained as well. Indeed, a chief steward on a plane will tell you that cabin staff are there primarily for the safety of pax.

I have no idea how the guard on my Brighton to London Tuesday 18th 1723 from Gatwick (thus inter-city, er, ???) could have assisted if a drunken lout had started running amok in my coach, or any other mishap or crash, as the whole train was rammed to the gills, as indeed all trains seemed to be, including the Gatwick Expresses that I observed en route.

Admittedly it was a strike day, so perhaps the crush was explicable. What impressed me was the professionalism and courtesy the guard displayed in his announcements. I don't think English was his first language, but his messages were delivered slowly and clearly and preceded by 'Ladies and Gentlemen' which form of address I always admire being used.

There have been comments about Southern Guards remaining closeted in their compartments. I would have liked to see how our guard could have managed to emerge from his, given the crush.

In the event of an accident, the important work takes place outside of the train, of course.

 

[Sprinter153]

Looks like agencies are recruiting staff for the OBS role, both on a permanent and fixed-term basis, firstly as per this post (over in the Careers sub-forum):



...and secondly as demonstrated in links like this one: http://ata-recruitment.co.uk/jobs/customer-service-advisor-2147587/

Et voila, this is the makings of exactly what a lot of us were worried about. Agency staff being brought into the role practically from day one. To me that's a further indication that they want costs down, the first step down the road to binning the role altogether.

There's a lot of waffle there about 'world class' customer service and all that jazz but if they're going to be trained anything like the On Trak gateline staff there will be nothing 'world class' about it. One of them asked me the other day where Guildford is. Not their fault but the training seemingly has very, very little substance.

 

[Deepgreen]

Et voila, this is the makings of exactly what a lot of us were worried about. Agency staff being brought into the role practically from day one. To me that's a further indication that they want costs down, the first step down the road to binning the role altogether.

There's a lot of waffle there about 'world class' customer service and all that jazz but if they're going to be trained anything like the On Trak gateline staff there will be nothing 'world class' about it. One of them asked me the other day where Guildford is. Not their fault but the training seemingly has very, very little substance.

Although it is pretty pitiful not to know where somewhere like Guildford is, especially if you are trying to gain employment in a role in transport which one might hope would involve some knowledge of the very basic geography of the south of England!

 

[HowardGWR]

In the event of an accident, the important work takes place outside of the train, of course.

Note, I made a mistake about time of train - it was 1823 from GTW, running very late (corrected in OP).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X34716/2016/10/18/advanced

I agree that is so, but I happen not to think that this part of the role of OBS, or guard, is the most significant one in the very rare instance of a train crash. From the daily reports of yob behaviour on trains, all over the country, the bouncer type is the most useful person to employ as an OBS. By the way, with air travel, the typical build of a chief steward(or -ess), unless trained in martial arts, would not be able to stand up to anyone in such a case, from my observations.

 

[tsr]

Et voila, this is the makings of exactly what a lot of us were worried about. Agency staff being brought into the role practically from day one. To me that's a further indication that they want costs down, the first step down the road to binning the role altogether.

There's a lot of waffle there about 'world class' customer service and all that jazz but if they're going to be trained anything like the On Trak gateline staff there will be nothing 'world class' about it. One of them asked me the other day where Guildford is. Not their fault but the training seemingly has very, very little substance.

I don't have as much of an issue with agencies carrying out recruitment of permanent staff - effectively as 3rd party selection, interviewing and screening - as I do with the fact that temporary contracts are so evidently being freely advertised without any apparent transparency or details to assure any permanence of the role. In other words, broadly speaking I agree with your concerns.

What I would say is that ATA do at least feature in my list of "decent" agencies who tend to be reasonably good at choosing staff, and already have experience in getting hold of folks who have gone on to become permanent employees of Southern. Indeed, on a purely customer-service-oriented basis, they are pretty good. I've worked with numerous people they've employed with only a tiny proportion of "bad apples", if I may judge them as such! As for Ontrak, I do find their selections rather variable and I think I'd be rather less excited by them recruiting for train crew.

 

[Antman]

Although it is pretty pitiful not to know where somewhere like Guildford is, especially if you are trying to gain employment in a role in transport which one might hope would involve some knowledge of the very basic geography of the south of England!

I was on a Southeastern train not long ago and the guard didn't know where Winchester was let alone have any idea how to get there!

 

[Robertj21a]

That role would equate to flight chief steward, a role I think should be standard on Inter-City trains, thus safety-trained as well. Indeed, a chief steward on a plane will tell you that cabin staff are there primarily for the safety of pax.

I have no idea how the guard on my Brighton to London Tuesday 18th 1823 from Gatwick, 1758 ex Brighton (thus inter-city, er, ???), running very late, could have assisted if a drunken lout had started running amok in my coach, or any other mishap or crash, as the whole train was rammed to the gills, as indeed all trains seemed to be, including the Gatwick Expresses that I observed en route.

Admittedly it was a strike day, so perhaps the crush was explicable. What impressed me was the professionalism and courtesy the guard displayed in his announcements. I don't think English was his first language, but his messages were delivered slowly and clearly and preceded by 'Ladies and Gentlemen' which form of address I always admire being used.

There have been comments about Southern Guards remaining closeted in their compartments. I would have liked to see how our guard could have managed to emerge from his, given the crush.

What would have happened on the same line, about the same time, if it had been a Thameslink (DOO) train ?

 

[HowardGWR]

What would have happened on the same line, about the same time, if it had been a Thameslink (DOO) train ?

Well, nothing 'happened'. I am not sure I understand your question. I was merely remarking that, despite the strike and the difficult circumstances, our guard handled the business of giving information with courtesy and aplomb, so clearly not a person with any chip on his shoulder about his job. very commendable. The stops, Gatwick, East Croydon and Victoria all have oodles of platform staff, who, as I observed at Gatwick, were assiduous in warning people not to stand beyond the yellow line*. The platform 4 is very narrow at several points. DOO would make no difference at these stations, as dispatch staff are right on top of the dangers. thankfully.

* Mind you, I had to tell one young lady, deep in her smart phone, that staff had been vigorously whistling at her to stand back and then shouting at her over the tannoy.

Some people are beyond saving from their self-induced fate!

 

[infobleep]

Someone posted this link on WNXX. Whilst assistance may not necessarily be given by a train guard, perhaps GTR will have to maintain a particular level of staffing after all?

This explains why trains need a second member of staff and many other posts explain why it is better for them to be saftey trained, in my humble opinion. But what would I know. I don't work on the railway but support the guards role continuing!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at this list it's clear that many of these problems exist DOO or not. Some of them are unfortunate, but don't show that Southern are doing anything legally wrong. The important one is around help at stations, whether it's provided by station staff or guards. Reducing the accessibility would be an issue, so I agree that OBS would need to be diagrammed where such a situation existed.

But then I've always said that; where they might make a saving is by not having an OBS on for the whole route, e.g. if there was a part of the service where every station is staffed. Retaining the role doesn't mean that there won't be reductions over time.

They may not be doing anything legally wrong now.

Or course years ago disability legislation didn't exist. Does that mean it shouldn't exist now or in the future?

Conversely I think all trains should have loos as some people cannot travel for very long without one. Legally it's fine to run long services without them of course and I consider anything running for more than 30 minutes as long in this case. Doesn't mean it has to be like that.

One might say get out at a station and use the loo but what if all the station loos are regularly locked out of use due to lack of station staff being employed. What is the service is every 30 minutes.

I'm using those example as reasons why things don't have to remain the same and what is legal now doesn't have to be legal forever.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Press Association: Southern strike on 3rd November suspended by the RMT following a request from the British Legion.

https://twitter.com/PA/status/789070349845532673

Perhaps they could substitute another day later on. Would that be allowed or would they need to ballot.

How about making it compulsory to ballot to call off a strike!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So 12 month fixed term agency contracts, well that's not going to do anything to calm the situation down. You would have thought OBS would be managed in house on a permanent contract

And agency staff can be got rid off immediately without redundancy pay

 

[John R]

And agency staff can be got rid off immediately without redundancy pay

Do we know that they are being employed on an agency contract? It looks to me as if Southern have employed the agency to undergo the recruitment process. Which would be a perfectly normal thing to do, especially for a role where there is likely to be a very high volume of applicants. The fact that it is a temporary contract in itself doesn't mean it's an agency contract.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do we know that they are being employed on an agency contract? It looks to me as if Southern have employed the agency to undergo the recruitment process. Which would be a perfectly normal thing to do, especially for a role where there is likely to be a very high volume of applicants. The fact that it is a temporary contract in itself doesn't mean it's an agency contract.

That's what I was thinking as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do we know that they are being employed on an agency contract? It looks to me as if Southern have employed the agency to undergo the recruitment process. Which would be a perfectly normal thing to do, especially for a role where there is likely to be a very high volume of applicants. The fact that it is a temporary contract in itself doesn't mean it's an agency contract.

It does seem to be a temporary contract with GTR, not the agency. It looks like it's just the agency advertising the vacancy.

 

[Deepgreen]

It does seem to be a temporary contract with GTR, not the agency. It looks like it's just the agency advertising the vacancy.

By "temporary contract" - does this imply that this can be terminated without notice? If so, the same principle of job vulnerability applies.

 

[AlterEgo]

By "temporary contract" - does this imply that this can be terminated without notice? If so, the same principle of job vulnerability applies.

Having had a look at the job post again, it says "permanent". Didn't notice that before! Wonder if it changed?

GTR would definitely be the employer here.

http://ata-recruitment.co.uk/jobs/customer-service-advisor-2147587/

 

[HH]

I'm using those example as reasons why things don't have to remain the same and what is legal now doesn't have to be legal forever.

That's pretty obvious, but so what? If it changes then everyone has to adjust to the change.

 

[Deepgreen]

Having had a look at the job post again, it says "permanent". Didn't notice that before! Wonder if it changed?

GTR would definitely be the employer here.

http://ata-recruitment.co.uk/jobs/customer-service-advisor-2147587/

So, likely to be anything but "permanent" then, even if GTR sees out its current franchise term!

 

[HH]

So, likely to be anything but "permanent" then...

What is permanent, except death?

 

[sarahj]

Seems to be permanent for a year, then if your good enough, and GTR know how many obs's they need, then extended. It seems since they are taking on about 100 they are using ontrack to filter out the numbers, then do further training themselves.

 

[plastictaffy]

Christ, I wouldn't want to be one of the agency OBS's walking into a messroom full of ex-conductors. Awkward........

 

[AlterEgo]

Christ, I wouldn't want to be one of the agency OBS's walking into a messroom full of ex-conductors. Awkward........

There aren't going to be any OBSs employed by an agency. The employer is GTR. It's just the advert and initial sift is made by an agency.

 

[ainsworth74]

By "temporary contract" - does this imply that this can be terminated without notice? If so, the same principle of job vulnerability applies.

No you would still be entitled to your statutory minimum notice if you were being dismissed for misconduct (unless being dismissed for gross misconduct in which case dismissal can be instant) or were in redundancy situation. What it really means is that after the twelve months of the contract, unless the employer chooses to extend it, you'll be out of a job.