Trivia - biggest London and non-London rail markets with no direct service

[Islandexpress]

Burnley to Manchester WOULD have been, and is still underserved? Bradford to Sheffield or Wakefield? (Not inc GC)

 

[imagination]

There's a peak hours only service direct from London to Sheerness and vice versa.

On that sort of line, I wonder how many people travel from Marlow to London...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

York is the second city! Followed by Norwich.

Not sure if serious. Maybe way back when they were but in terms of modern society and commerce it's definitely a two horse race between Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[anti-pacer]

I don't know how much demand there would be for direct services from Mansfield, Cleethorpes/Grimsby, Bury St Edmunds to London.

Markets not covered by direct trains include Cardiff-Liverpool, Cardiff-Scotland, Norwich-Birmingham, Nottingham-Coventry.

 

[g22]

The Network Rail Long Distance Market Study only covered 13 cities in detail but it seemed that out of those 13 for non-London flows Liverpool to Glasgow, Liverpool to Edinburgh and Leicester to Manchester were the largest. I guess Bristol to Oxford is up there as well if that is thought of as long distance. But it seems we will never know for sure.

 

[deltic]

I don't know how much demand there would be for direct services from Mansfield, Cleethorpes/Grimsby, Bury St Edmunds to London.

Markets not covered by direct trains include Cardiff-Liverpool, Cardiff-Scotland, Norwich-Birmingham, Nottingham-Coventry.

Wonder if Newmarket is a big as Bury St Edmunds given the horse racing market.

East Midlands to north east and Scotland also seems underserved (from Nottingham and Leicester at least)

 

[crispy1978]

Got to be Altnabreac surely? That place is huge!

 

[Groningen]

Chandlers Ford

 

[tbtc]

Cardiff-Liverpool

Good shout. See also Liverpool - Wrexham, Liverpool - north Wales coast, Liverpool to most places.

Birmingham/ Stoke - Manchester Airport seems an omission, since it's apparently important that it's essential for Cleethorpes/ Barrow/ Middlesbrough etc to have regular services to the Airport (but nearer cities have no such link).

Stansted Airport has pretty terrible links - but then the track layout would make some services uncompetitive (e.g. Stansted - Ipswich would be quite a circuitous route).

Same kind of situation with Heathrow - no service to Reading/ Slough/ Oxford/ Basingstoke

Glasgow to Blackpool would be rammed a handful of times a years! (but fairly quiet at other times).

If Norwich needs a through service to Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool (as is often pointed out on "should the through service be cut" threads) then do Stansted/ Cambridge not similarly "deserve" a through service? It existed in Central Trains days.

Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol? Oops, sorry, everything has to go via Cardiff these days. Bristol to Swansea too?

A few Scottish ones too (Edinburgh to Kilmarnock/ Greenock... Glasgow to Leuchars...).

 

[Firesprite]

Wonder if Newmarket is a big as Bury St Edmunds given the horse racing market.

The trains are now three coaches, But with the shorten platform at Newmarket, the service can not cope with race day traffic. Maybe with bimodes there may be the return of through race day trains from London, but only if the platform is lengthen. It is a shame that too much railway land was solded off, preventing the installing of a second track and platform.

 

[Busaholic]

Camelot could do with a service or two.

 

[rg177]

Camelot could do with a service or two.

This did make me giggle but I assume you mean Camelon [emoji38]

Simplest solution would be to stop the VTEC service there, maybe just the Stirling at first to test the waters. Depends on platform lengths and potential passenger numbers I suppose.

 

[anti-pacer]

What about Ardrossan-London via Troon, Ayr and Dumfries?

There are options by rail and boat from Dublin to London but not really any from Northern Ireland. Added to this a large part of Scotland with no direct connection to points south of the border.

 

[Phil.]

The trains are now three coaches, But with the shorten platform at Newmarket, the service can not cope with race day traffic. Maybe with bimodes there may be the return of through race day trains from London, but only if the platform is lengthen. It is a shame that too much railway land was solded off, preventing the installing of a second track and platform.

The platform at Newmarket last time that I was there - about three years ago - is plenty long enough. it's just been artificially shortened by putting a barrier across it at the Cambridge end.

 

[cuccir]

On last year's station use figures, and excluding the multiple stations in Greater London+Gatwick, then it is Birmingham to Brighton which are the busiest stations without connections. The remainder of the top 5 would be various locations to/from Brighton. Removing the Brighton anomaly, and examples where conurbations are already connected, the busiest unconnected stations are then Liverpool to Edinburgh and Glasgow to Reading.
--
Going further into the data - Huddersfield is undoubtedly the busiest station in an urban area that does not otherwise have a London connection. As far as I can tell, Paisley and Bolton are next, though these could both be described as part of Glasgow and Manchester. As far as I can tell the next stations down which are in towns that are truly separate from larger cities are in fact Ormskirk, Ayr, Barnsley and only then Middlesbrough, although this of course doesn't inherently reflect unmet demand.

 

[Taunton]

As a generic issue, the most common flows not connected are those which lie across London, Manchester and Glasgow, where historically separate termini thwart through journeys. Thameslink has done a bit for travelling to Gatwick and Brighton from the north, but these are still a nuisance from the Euston or Liverpool Street main lines. Glasgow is a particular issue dividing east from west Scotland.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't know how much demand there would be for direct services from Mansfield, Cleethorpes/Grimsby, Bury St Edmunds to London.

Markets not covered by direct trains include Cardiff-Liverpool, Cardiff-Scotland, Norwich-Birmingham, Nottingham-Coventry.

Leicester-Coventry is definitely a strong local flow.

I'll also throw in Bolton-Liverpool.

 

[Richard_B]

As a generic issue, the most common flows not connected are those which lie across London, Manchester and Glasgow, where historically separate termini thwart through journeys. Thameslink has done a bit for travelling to Gatwick and Brighton from the north, but these are still a nuisance from the Euston or Liverpool Street main lines. Glasgow is a particular issue dividing east from west Scotland.

the outer areas of Birmingham struggle with the terminals problem. It is easier to go 15 miles to the other side of the city than 5 miles sideways. But each individual flow will be small.

 

[HowardGWR]

Burnley to Manchester WOULD have been, and is still underserved? Bradford to Sheffield or Wakefield? (Not inc GC)

Bradford to almost anywhere really. There used to be a direct train from Bradford to Paignton through Bristol (The Devonian).

 

[Taunton]

the outer areas of Birmingham struggle with the terminals problem. It is easier to go 15 miles to the other side of the city than 5 miles sideways. But each individual flow will be small.

Birmingham actually came close in the 1970s to having just one station for all directions, but then Moor Street, followed by Snow Hill, had a renaissance, and now the HS2 station is going to lead to four separate ones.

 

[tbtc]

Leicester-Coventry is definitely a strong local flow.

I'll also throw in Bolton-Liverpool.

Two good shouts.

Are there any "direct" services from Kirkcaldy to Dunfermline these days? (or does everything officially terminate at Thornton? (see also Kirkcaldy - Cowdenbeath etc).

There must be a few around Cardiff - either places lacking direct services to Cardiff Bay, or places that are on different valleys (Merthyr to Aberdare etc)?

Round these parts, Mansfield lacks a Sheffield service, Retford lacks a Nottingham service, Alfreton lacks a Derby service, that kind of thing. None may be "massive" markets, but probably more passengers per day than some places I've seen on this thread.

But then is this about the direct link that would raise the most revenue/ direct link that would increase passengers the most/ be of most use to existing passengers (without necessarily boosting revenue/ passenger numbers)?

On last year's station use figures, and excluding the multiple stations in Greater London+Gatwick, then it is Birmingham to Brighton which are the busiest stations without connections

That looks like a good suggestion - big enough places.

Maybe if we had a co-ordinated railway, rather than two TOCs competing on the New Street - Coventry - Milton Keynes - Watford - Euston corridor, we'd have some New Street - Coventry - Milton Keynes - Watford - Shepherd's Bush - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - Gatwick - Brighton services? That would link up a few places. But, with competition, TOCs will go with the approach of maximising Euston services.

The remainder of the top 5 would be various locations to/from Brighton. Removing the Brighton anomaly, and examples where conurbations are already connected, the busiest unconnected stations are then Liverpool to Edinburgh and Glasgow to Reading.
--
Going further into the data - Huddersfield is undoubtedly the busiest station in an urban area that does not otherwise have a London connection. As far as I can tell, Paisley and Bolton are next, though these could both be described as part of Glasgow and Manchester. As far as I can tell the next stations down which are in towns that are truly separate from larger cities are in fact Ormskirk, Ayr, Barnsley and only then Middlesbrough, although this of course doesn't inherently reflect unmet demand.

I'm not sure how many daily passengers there would be for a lot of these (though I recommend Londoners try a day out in Barnsley).

Barnsley is one of a number of places in northern England without a direct Manchester service (Wakefield, Rotherham, Birkenhead), which would probably be of more practical use day in day out.

 

[cuccir]

I'm not sure how many daily passengers there would be for a lot of these (though I recommend Londoners try a day out in Barnsley).

Barnsley is one of a number of places in northern England without a direct Manchester service (Wakefield, Rotherham, Birkenhead), which would probably be of more practical use day in day out.

I agree with this. I think what that search shows is that, Huddersfield aside, pretty much everywhere with a well used train station has a direct London service. I wonder too though if the presence of Paisley and Ayr on the list of unconnected stations might suggest viability for a through service onto the Ayrshire Coast Line from London? I realize that such a service would have to reverse back out of Glasgow Central and might not even be possible with the local infrastructure....

 

[anti-pacer]

I agree with this. I think what that search shows is that, Huddersfield aside, pretty much everywhere with a well used train station has a direct London service. I wonder too though if the presence of Paisley and Ayr on the list of unconnected stations might suggest viability for a through service onto the Ayrshire Coast Line from London? I realize that such a service would have to reverse back out of Glasgow Central and might not even be possible with the local infrastructure....

As per my suggestion on a previous post, couldn't an Ayrshire-London service run via Dumfries?

Dublin has a sail and rail option to London, Belfast doesn't really. Would such a proposal be useful to our friends in Ulster?

 

[cuccir]

As per my suggestion on a previous post, couldn't an Ayrshire-London service run via Dumfries?

Dublin has a sail and rail option to London, Belfast doesn't really. Would such a proposal be useful to our friends in Ulster?

It's a nice thought but in practice I'm not sure about the demand. Realistically, an Ayrshire-London service would be more likely as an extension to a current Glasgow-London service, in the way that current services to Blackpool, Sterling, Skipton etc etc are extensions of existing routes

 

[jhy44]

Two good shouts.
There must be a few around Cardiff - either places lacking direct services to Cardiff Bay, or places that are on different valleys (Merthyr to Aberdare etc)?

As a resident of Cardiff Bay, the station is useless to get to anywhere other than the Valleys without a connection into Cardiff Central. No one bothers doing Bay - Queen Street, Queen Street - Central, Central - Rest of UK - they just jump in a Taxi to Central to cut a 15/25 min journey into a 4 minute one.

Would it really have involved that much investment to divert the line into Central? All the Queen Street services go through Central anyway so it wouldn't have affected anyone negatively. But that's Wales for you - no one in the Assembly seems capable of doing anything right.

Whoever previously mentioned Birmingham - Swansea, completely agree, it is a big market as you see people flood off the trains in from West Wales at Central and then make their way to the Nottingham.

Relatedly, the lack of Birmingham-Lincoln/Grimsby always struck me as odd as Birmingham is the nearest 'Big Top 3' city to Lincolnshire. Thus turning the Nottingham - Cardiff into a Grimsby/Lincoln - Swansea service would do a world of good for connections.

Always seemed a bit illogical to have Swansea served by a very slow hourly Manchester train when it would probably be quicker to change at Birmingham anyway via two faster XCs.

 

[route101]

I agree with this. I think what that search shows is that, Huddersfield aside, pretty much everywhere with a well used train station has a direct London service. I wonder too though if the presence of Paisley and Ayr on the list of unconnected stations might suggest viability for a through service onto the Ayrshire Coast Line from London? I realize that such a service would have to reverse back out of Glasgow Central and might not even be possible with the local infrastructure....

Pretty sure they used to be a through service in the intercity days , in SPT timetable i have from 1989 the royal scot is listed starting at Ayr . Cant imagine a pendo starting at Ayr , not sure if they are cleared that way .

 

[deltic]

Demand for travel to London from Scotland outside the very largest cities is pretty small - not surprisingly people look to Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than to London.

 

[Richard_B]

Whoever previously mentioned Birmingham - Swansea, completely agree, it is a big market as you see people flood off the trains in from West Wales at Central and then make their way to the Nottingham.

Relatedly, the lack of Birmingham-Lincoln/Grimsby always struck me as odd as Birmingham is the nearest 'Big Top 3' city to Lincolnshire. Thus turning the Nottingham - Cardiff into a Grimsby/Lincoln - Swansea service would do a world of good for connections.

The train might go to Nottingham but do they all get off at Gloucester and Cheltenham? (I honestly don't know)

Not convinced that Birmingham to Lincolnshire is a big untapped flow tbh. By the Grimsby end you are far closer to Leeds than Birmingham, so really only Lincoln area would need Birmingham for 'big' city things, and as much I want to blow Birminghms trumpet as a native there is Nottingham far closer to Lincoln for many of the city things you might want

 

[Starmill]

I've always thought Exeter - Cardiff - Swansea.

Maybe Manchester to Derby, Leicester or Lincoln? Most I can think of seem edge cases, but that's mostly because I find them relatively easy journeys because I'm pretty much always happy to change and know which are the best trains to get. In fact many are easier and quicker to drive, but that's not usually an option for me.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Going from Kent to Gatwick Airport is a bit of a pain - it is essentially our "local" airport. Nobody used Kent's Manston Airport even before it was shut down, so Gatwick was (and continues to be) the only real option!

I must imagine Bromley South to Gatwick Airport gets some travel - and the only two ways you could do it would be via Victoria, or via Beckenham Jn and East Croydon.