Southern train departs station with the doors open.

[swt class 450]

Just seen this tweet on Twitter that says that a train left Reedham (Greater London) with the doors open.

https://twitter.com/Spikethetec/status/795512547239723008

@SouthernRailUK carriage 77590 on 0625 purley to London Bridge pulled out of Reedham with door still open!! Closed by passenger !!

I dont know the full facts but this does sound very worrying and unsafe. This train is DOO so this is another reason to keep Guards on trains. Coach number 77590 is part of 455 806. I know that 455s can move with the cab doors open but i am surprised that it managed to move with the passenger doors open? Does anyone know more about this incident?

 

[maniacmartin]

I was under the impression that interlock technology means this should not be able to happen. Perhaps there was a fault with the unit?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

@SouthernRailUK carriage 77590 on 0625 purley to London Bridge pulled out of Reedham with door still open!! Closed by passenger !!

Presumably only slightly open if a passenger could push the doors together .

I dont know the full facts but this does sound very worrying and unsafe. This train is DOO so this is another reason to keep Guards on trains.

I don't support DOO, but a guard might not have helped this - unless they were in the same carriage, they probably would not have been able to see a door not completely closed, it could be 8 cars away. Their door closing system is the same as the drivers use.

 

[SPADTrap]

I was under the impression that interlock technology means this should not be able to happen. Perhaps there was a fault with the unit?

It definitely can and has, I know of an Electrostar that has gained interlock and reached line speed with a set of doors fully open recently.

 

[Phil.]

Just seen this tweet on Twitter that says that a train left Reedham (Greater London) with the doors open.

https://twitter.com/Spikethetec/status/795512547239723008

@SouthernRailUK carriage 77590 on 0625 purley to London Bridge pulled out of Reedham with door still open!! Closed by passenger !!

I dont know the full facts but this does sound very worrying and unsafe. This train is DOO so this is another reason to keep Guards on trains. Coach number 77590 is part of 455 806. I know that 455s can move with the cab doors open but i am surprised that it managed to move with the passenger doors open? Does anyone know more about this incident?

I was on a 455 (B.R. days) that left Wimbledon with a set of doors open - fully open, both leaves. I pushed them closed as the train was passing what was the B&Q warehouse. When asked, the Guards stated that he had the interlock light and dispatched the train on the bell. Train OOS at Clapham on the Junction. Never did hear back from Wimbledon Park as to what the cause of the fault was. Guard was also unable to explain how and why he didn't see that the doors were open.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Well look at this random 455 photo of mine:



Within the length of two cars, it is almost impossible to see the doors clearly, go another four cars down and you couldn't see much at all.

 

[Deepgreen]

What about the orange door indicator light(s) - would they be able to extinguish if a door was still open?

 

[northwichcat]

I dont know the full facts but this does sound very worrying and unsafe. This train is DOO so this is another reason to keep Guards on trains.

While I understand the level of concern that guards must have about their operator introducing DOO, trying to blame DOO when you don't have the full facts is as bad as Farage's 'blame the Eastern European immigrants for everything' comments.

All these problems only supposedly occur on DOO services yet I've been on trains with guards where doors have been released on a unit that was supposed to be locked out-of-use and is off the end of the platform. Also where a set of doors haven't opened but the guard doesn't realise and passengers get over carried. Also where doors haven't properly closed before departing (never fully open though.) Yet no-one has ever used the argument that platform dispatch staff are required at all stations as an extra pair of eyes in case guards miss any safety critical incidents.

 

[edwin_m]

Within the length of two cars, it is almost impossible to see the doors clearly, go another four cars down and you couldn't see much at all.

Plug doors would be much easier than pocketed ones, in this respect at least!

 

[Antman]

While I understand the level of concern that guards must have about their operator introducing DOO, trying to blame DOO when you don't have the full facts is as bad as Farage's 'blame the Eastern European immigrants for everything' comments.

All these problems only supposedly occur on DOO services yet I've been on trains with guards where doors have been released on a unit that was supposed to be locked out-of-use and is off the end of the platform. Also where a set of doors haven't opened but the guard doesn't realise and passengers get over carried. Also where doors haven't properly closed before departing (never fully open though.) Yet no-one has ever used the argument that platform dispatch staff are required at all stations as an extra pair of eyes in case guards miss any safety critical incidents.

Are you totally obsessed about Nigel Farage?

Like most people I'd assumed this couldn't happen, back in the days of slammers I saw a few trains on the move with doors open.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

What about the orange door indicator light(s) - would they be able to extinguish if a door was still open?

Presumably they work on the same system as the interlocking in the driver's cab or guard's control panel displays, so if interlock registers closed, then the lights will go out.

 

[Class377/5]

What about the orange door indicator light(s) - would they be able to extinguish if a door was still open?

A lot depends on the doors. Remember below 3mph you cash move with doors open. Far too little is know by public so everyone is guessing in the dark really. RAIB will be told and sure a report will be out in due course if needed.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you totally obsessed about Nigel Farage?

Like most people I'd assumed this couldn't happen, back in the days of slammers I saw a few trains on the move with doors open.

I was going to say Daily Mail style journalism but I couldn't make it work properly in a sentence. You can still substitute Farage and Eastern Europeans for Trump and Mexicans if you desire.

 

[Phil.]

I've just remembered an HST that left Fishguard with a door open and swinging. I seem to remember that there was a photograph of it in one of the railway magazines.

Still, it's nothing new.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mind...ves-station-with-them-still-open-6420999.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/doors-packed-tube-train-open-2484003

 

[IKB]

The comments re guard v DOO are clutching at straws.

The doors on a 455 are leaf doors, not plug. As someone mentioned above, if a guard was stood at the local door looking down the side of the train, bar the two immediate sets of doors nearest to them, they wouldn't be able to see if the doors were open or closed on the other carriages.

If the BILs are extinguished and you've gained interlock then you're within your rights to believe that the doors are closed. DOO driver/guard then does the train safety check to make sure nobody is trapped in the doors by way of clothing. For who say "you should never assume" etc - well, thats why the interlock technology is there. The alternative is a DOO driver/guard walking the length of the train at every station to check every door. Good luck with that.

If, in the incident referred to at the beginning, the driver was able to take power with a set of doors open then clearly this suggests there's something awry with the interlock circuits on that unit.

You can, theoretically, coast at line speed on a 455 with the doors open (e.g. due to a egress) as breaking the interlock won't cause the breaks to apply, you just can't take power. Perhaps one reason why they should be phased out!

 

[D Foster]

PLEASE! Anyone seeing a door open on a train on the move - DO NOT approach the door! Use the Pascom. (previously known as the "communication cord"). Stay away from the door and encourage anyone near it to get clear of it toward safety. Get the train stopped and then dealt with by trained staff.
This will delay the train - but nowhere near as much as you falling out will delay several trains and definitely delay you - possibly permanently.

 

[Phil.]

The comments re guard v DOO are clutching at straws.

The doors on a 455 are leaf doors, not plug. As someone mentioned above, if a guard was stood at the local door looking down the side of the train, bar the two immediate sets of doors nearest to them, they wouldn't be able to see if the doors were open or closed on the other carriages.

If the BILs are extinguished and you've gained interlock then you're within your rights to believe that the doors are closed. DOO driver/guard then does the train safety check to make sure nobody is trapped in the doors by way of clothing. For who say "you should never assume" etc - well, thats why the interlock technology is there. The alternative is a DOO driver/guard walking the length of the train at every station to check every door. Good luck with that.

If, in the incident referred to at the beginning, the driver was able to take power with a set of doors open then clearly this suggests there's something awry with the interlock circuits on that unit.

You can, theoretically, coast at line speed on a 455 with the doors open (e.g. due to a egress) as breaking the interlock won't cause the breaks to apply, you just can't take power. Perhaps one reason why they should be phased out!

So what you're saying is that a DOO 455 is no less safer than a DOO 455 with a Guard. Hmmmm.

 

[D365]

PLEASE! Anyone seeing a door open on a train on the move - DO NOT approach the door! Use the Pascom. (previously known as the "communication cord"). Stay away from the door and encourage anyone near it to get clear of it toward safety. Get the train stopped and then dealt with by trained staff.
This will delay the train - but nowhere near as much as you falling out will delay several trains and definitely delay you - possibly permanently.

+1. I think this needs to be the big pointer to take away from any kind of discussion.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

People on here are normally eagle-eyed for details yet no-one has mentioned that the tweet talked about a departure from Purley when the station where the incident occurred (Reedham) was the stop before Purley, and also that the unit involved would have coupled to another set (ex Caterham) at Purley. From RTT it appears that said unit also over-nighted at Tattenham Corner before commencing this journey. As has rightly been said the presence of guard would likely have made no difference although had a guard been available to carry out a door test at the start of the day the problem might have been detected. It would be interesting to know what happened that allowed the train to continue its journey to London Bridge rather than being taken out of service for investigation.

 

[bramling]

Just seen this tweet on Twitter that says that a train left Reedham (Greater London) with the doors open.

https://twitter.com/Spikethetec/status/795512547239723008

@SouthernRailUK carriage 77590 on 0625 purley to London Bridge pulled out of Reedham with door still open!! Closed by passenger !!

I dont know the full facts but this does sound very worrying and unsafe. This train is DOO so this is another reason to keep Guards on trains. Coach number 77590 is part of 455 806. I know that 455s can move with the cab doors open but i am surprised that it managed to move with the passenger doors open? Does anyone know more about this incident?

From my experience (not with class 455), there are three scenarios which spring to mind where it's possible for a train to depart a platform with a door open.

1) A serious wrong-side failure of the interlock on that particular door, or the train's interlock circuit in general. This is *extremely* rare, although not unheard of. Naturally this would be treated extremely seriously.

2) Where I am we had an incident where a train managed to depart a platform with a set of double doors fully open. What happened was some kids had operated a butterfly cock just as the train had started moving, meanwhile the driver was departing slowly and coasting out of the platform, I think due to restrictive signal aspects ahead. It was a new driver who was going particularly slowly and didn't notice the interlock lamp had gone out, the section concerned was on a falling gradient therefore the train was able to pick up speed and reach the next station. We did a complete reconstruction, operating/driving the train exactly as was done, and it was possible to re-create the scenario. On the type of rolling stock concerned the interlock was/is connected to the traction system but not to the brakes.

3) If the interlock has been cut out on the car concerned because the doors were unable to be closed, this is the only way to get the train moving. In this case the train would be out of service and measures would be taken to prevent people boarding through the doors.

 

[WatcherZero]

Last train I was on where the doors kept coming open (Northern) guard would just hold them shut when initially setting off before retreating to his cab and passengers didn't bat an eyelid.

 

[TEW]

From my experience (not with class 455), there are three scenarios which spring to mind where it's possible for a train to depart a platform with a door open.

1) A serious wrong-side failure of the interlock on that particular door, or the train's interlock circuit in general. This is *extremely* rare, although not unheard of. Naturally this would be treated extremely seriously.

2) Where I am we had an incident where a train managed to depart a platform with a set of double doors fully open. What happened was some kids had operated a butterfly cock just as the train had started moving, meanwhile the driver was departing slowly and coasting out of the platform, I think due to restrictive signal aspects ahead. It was a new driver who was going particularly slowly and didn't notice the interlock lamp had gone out, the section concerned was on a falling gradient therefore the train was able to pick up speed and reach the next station. We did a complete reconstruction, operating/driving the train exactly as was done, and it was possible to re-create the scenario. On the type of rolling stock concerned the interlock was/is connected to the traction system but not to the brakes.

3) If the interlock has been cut out on the car concerned because the doors were unable to be closed, this is the only way to get the train moving. In this case the train would be out of service and measures would be taken to prevent people boarding through the doors.

I am aware of an incident on SWT recently with a 455, as it was leaving a station a set of doors on the non-platform side opened by themselves. This broke the interlock and the crew brought the train to a stand, but still a potentially dangerous incident and it could appear that the train left the station with a set of doors open.

 

[jamieP]

People on here are normally eagle-eyed for details yet no-one has mentioned that the tweet talked about a departure from Purley when the station where the incident occurred (Reedham) was the stop before Purley, and also that the unit involved would have coupled to another set (ex Caterham) at Purley. From RTT it appears that said unit also over-nighted at Tattenham Corner before commencing this journey. As has rightly been said the presence of guard would likely have made no difference although had a guard been available to carry out a door test at the start of the day the problem might have been detected. It would be interesting to know what happened that allowed the train to continue its journey to London Bridge rather than being taken out of service for investigation.

A door test would have been carried out by a driver when prepping the unit.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How does the interlock circuit and/or hazard light detect if the doors are closed properly?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

So what you're saying is that a DOO 455 is no less safer than a DOO 455 with a Guard. Hmmmm.

In this exact scenario, yes. Unless it happened to be the be the guard's local door it might have made no difference, the train would still have departed.

Of course a guard could react quicker and get to the problem coach quicker if the passcom was pulled.

As per the comments on the previous page, trying to say that this incident is proof that DOO is dangerous is misleading and weakens the argument - like people who tout nationalisation as a panacea for all problems.

 

[Class377/5]

In this exact scenario, yes. Unless it happened to be the be the guard's local door it might have made no difference, the train would still have departed.

Of course a guard could react quicker and get to the problem coach quicker if the passcom was pulled.

As per the comments on the previous page, trying to say that this incident is proof that DOO is dangerous is misleading and weakens the argument - like people who tout nationalisation as a panacea for all problems.

Even if we did have fable guards on the 455s, how would they react quicker if units are physically seperae like on the 455 fleet?. Don't fall into the trap of assuming the guard can be at all points in a train at the same time. They cannot and it's foolish to suggest, as you ahve, other wise.

 

[scrapy]

Last train I was on where the doors kept coming open (Northern) guard would just hold them shut when initially setting off before retreating to his cab and passengers didn't bat an eyelid.

Was this a pacer by any chance? If so the guard may have had to force the doors shut but certainally wouldn't have been holding them shut. Power couldn't be obtained without the waist locks engaged. They may have been leaning on the doors whilst observing the train leave the platform but wouldn't be holding them shut.

 

[Antman]

PLEASE! Anyone seeing a door open on a train on the move - DO NOT approach the door! Use the Pascom. (previously known as the "communication cord"). Stay away from the door and encourage anyone near it to get clear of it toward safety. Get the train stopped and then dealt with by trained staff.
This will delay the train - but nowhere near as much as you falling out will delay several trains and definitely delay you - possibly permanently.

I think that is rather stating the obvious, I did exactly that on a slammer some years ago when a door had somehow 'just come open', well according to the kids who were larking about nearby. It's the only time I ever got to pull the communication cord and the sharp braking slammed it closed again.

 

[DarloRich]

PLEASE! Anyone seeing a door open on a train on the move - DO NOT approach the door! Use the Pascom. (previously known as the "communication cord"). Stay away from the door and encourage anyone near it to get clear of it toward safety. Get the train stopped and then dealt with by trained staff.
This will delay the train - but nowhere near as much as you falling out will delay several trains and definitely delay you - possibly permanently.

THIS - most certainly this. Clear the area, move people back, keep them away and call for help.

 

[WatcherZero]

Was this a pacer by any chance? If so the guard may have had to force the doors shut but certainally wouldn't have been holding them shut. Power couldn't be obtained without the waist locks engaged. They may have been leaning on the doors whilst observing the train leave the platform but wouldn't be holding them shut.

They wouldnt close fully on their own (concertina design), he would pull them together when setting off from stations then leave and they would gradually return to near fully open again after a couple of minutes. Next station departure he would repeat the process, pull them together