Southern train departs station with the doors open.

[Antman]

THIS - most certainly this. Clear the area, move people back, keep them away and call for help.

Somebody else stating the obvious!

Whether the passcom should be used immediately or alert staff at the next station would depend on location and circumstances.

 

[physics34]

Once drove a 455 that could take power without interlock. I discovered it after realising that one of the relays can't have been working (you get a distinctive CLICK when you gain interlock on a 455 aswell as a blue interlock light). I was empties at the time.

The fault was so rare they had to stripe the 455 down in places to look at all the wires. The fault was attributed to a short circuit in the "door key switch" panel.

 

[tsr]

I was under the impression that interlock technology means this should not be able to happen. Perhaps there was a fault with the unit?

That is correct - there are a number of different interlock systems on a 455, and you should not be able to take power with any door open, other than either of the cab doors adjacent to an active Door Key Switch. With conductor operation, you shouldn't be able to give the driver 2 on the bell either.

Presumably only slightly open if a passenger could push the doors together .

455s do have a tendency for doors to fail or stick part-way open or closed (not necessarily with a wrong-side failure such as is being alleged here) and it is often possible to push them fully open or closed unless something has broken or jammed up completely. I've done it... not on the move, I hasten to add.

I don't support DOO, but a guard might not have helped this - unless they were in the same carriage, they probably would not have been able to see a door not completely closed, it could be 8 cars away. Their door closing system is the same as the drivers use.

Well look at this random 455 photo of mine:

[PHOTO]

Within the length of two cars, it is almost impossible to see the doors clearly, go another four cars down and you couldn't see much at all.

Yup, the Southern paint job is even worse for conductors to be able to tell the exact position of doors, as the colour contrast is, in layman's terms, all wrong!

It definitely can and has, I know of an Electrostar that has gained interlock and reached line speed with a set of doors fully open recently.

That is, to be fair, both an entirely different type of traction (and different interlock systems too). Still deeply worrying and I have certainly heard of interlock issues of a similar magnitude too. But rarely...

What about the orange door indicator light(s) - would they be able to extinguish if a door was still open?

Not in normal circumstances, no. Additionally, I recall a few 455s I have dealt with which have had "sticky" doors, requiring two or more attempts to close from the remote "door close" button on the panel. In none of these scenarios did the orange BIL lamp extinguish with the door only partially closed. Indeed, the light still illuminates if all the doors on the coach are locked out, but the overall command is given to release all doors on the train. This can be observed in the now-rare event of an 8 coach 455 working to Horsham with the rear 2 coaches locked out.

All these problems only supposedly occur on DOO services yet I've been on trains with guards where doors have been released on a unit that was supposed to be locked out-of-use and is off the end of the platform.

Local instructions vary, but this is often deemed acceptable if the doors on the unit are locked out of use and passengers cannot access the coaches in question. On some stock, you cannot deselect the rear unit but have to give a release on it anyway, even if the doors are not actually able to be opened. If doors are released on a coach which is in service but not on the platform, this is generally not acceptable (a few exceptions exist, which I believe includes the EMT HST fleet).

Also where a set of doors haven't opened but the guard doesn't realise and passengers get over carried.

Whilst often massively inconvenient, provided the egresses would still function in an emergency and fire regs have not been compromised, this is effectively a "right side" failure - the doors have failed in their most restrictive state. Also, unless your train is very quiet, or you have a very good memory or x-ray vision, it's impossible to tell from standing on the platform if someone wants to alight much further down the train. If the door is bouncing half-open and closed, clearly preventing someone leaving who is attempting to do so, that would be something of a different matter; if the BIL lamp illuminates and the rest of the doors seem OK, but a few remain closed, unfortunately it's often hard to tell the difference remotely between nobody wanting to alight and something being amiss. It's worth pulling the passcom in such an event, whilst still at a stand at the station, as the door will need looking at.

Also where doors haven't properly closed before departing (never fully open though.)

Certainly shouldn't ever happen, agreed!

Yet no-one has ever used the argument that platform dispatch staff are required at all stations as an extra pair of eyes in case guards miss any safety critical incidents.

A perfectly valid argument at certain locations, particularly busy ones or where visibility may be seriously compromised.

Plug doors would be much easier than pocketed ones, in this respect at least!

Yes, I much prefer them for visibility of any door faults or obstructions.

A lot depends on the doors. Remember below 3mph you cash move with doors open. Far too little is know by public so everyone is guessing in the dark really. RAIB will be told and sure a report will be out in due course if needed.

That's a sweeping statement. Not all stock can move with doors open up to 3mph, indeed on a 455 an active door release should bring it to a stand (as an example, a handful of drivers on DOO routes still release doors fractionally before the train is stopped, and you will find that doing this will lead to a brake application). The "3mph" idea, strictly speaking 5km/h on most newer stock (consult line-of-route manual where applicable), usually applies to the timing for full release of the door locking after an emergency egress application.

I've just remembered an HST that left Fishguard with a door open and swinging. I seem to remember that there was a photograph of it in one of the railway magazines.

Yes, but as I understand it, CDL on an HST will work even if the door is open or indeed not there at all! Therefore it is down to the manual visual checks at dispatch to identify any such open door, which may be what failed. No doubt the magazine had more commentary on whether it was a fault, human error or vandalism.

The comments re guard v DOO are clutching at straws.

The doors on a 455 are leaf doors, not plug. As someone mentioned above, if a guard was stood at the local door looking down the side of the train, bar the two immediate sets of doors nearest to them, they wouldn't be able to see if the doors were open or closed on the other carriages.

The thing is, although on Southern 455s it is very difficult to tell the exact position of the doors due to their construction and the paint scheme (as I have said), you can often tell the nuances of how the doors are working, and whether or not there's a fault, by the noise they make, as well as walking slightly up and down the platform. Drivers, especially those using platform mirrors or monitors, may not have this luxury, or may simply not carry out degraded working (dispatch whilst standing on the platform, from cab door panels) because they are unaware they need to look out for a fault.

If the BILs are extinguished and you've gained interlock then you're within your rights to believe that the doors are closed. DOO driver/guard then does the train safety check to make sure nobody is trapped in the doors by way of clothing. For who say "you should never assume" etc - well, thats why the interlock technology is there. The alternative is a DOO driver/guard walking the length of the train at every station to check every door. Good luck with that.

If you suspect there is an issue with the doors then you would walk down to check, in which case the train can wait whilst you do that. Agreed that gaining interlock usually means the door closure has proceeded successfully, but it's all about being as alert as possible to any issue that still remains. The train safety check requires a full view of the dispatch corridor to ensure it is safe to dispatch, and there may be times when you are alerted to issues beyond the question of whether someone is obviously trapped. Peripheral vision, and checking the side of the train and its environment for all manner of problems, is very important and one of the reasons why mirrors/monitors can be inadequate, or at least no better than a guard's duties.

If, in the incident referred to at the beginning, the driver was able to take power with a set of doors open then clearly this suggests there's something awry with the interlock circuits on that unit.

Yes, quite.

You can, theoretically, coast at line speed on a 455 with the doors open (e.g. due to a egress) as breaking the interlock won't cause the breaks to apply, you just can't take power. Perhaps one reason why they should be phased out!

It actually depends on which door it is and whether any other fault has occurred in tandem.

PLEASE! Anyone seeing a door open on a train on the move - DO NOT approach the door! Use the Pascom. (previously known as the "communication cord"). Stay away from the door and encourage anyone near it to get clear of it toward safety. Get the train stopped and then dealt with by trained staff.
This will delay the train - but nowhere near as much as you falling out will delay several trains and definitely delay you - possibly permanently.

As the passcom on 455s could be either above or adjacent to the door in question, it would be safest to move to the next vestibule or coach. Indeed, moving to the next coach in an emergency is probably the first thing to advise in many types of incident.

As has rightly been said the presence of guard would likely have made no difference although had a guard been available to carry out a door test at the start of the day the problem might have been detected. It would be interesting to know what happened that allowed the train to continue its journey to London Bridge rather than being taken out of service for investigation.

Southern conductors would not normally carry out door tests on 455s.

From my experience (not with class 455), there are three scenarios which spring to mind where it's possible for a train to depart a platform with a door open.

1) A serious wrong-side failure of the interlock on that particular door, or the train's interlock circuit in general. This is *extremely* rare, although not unheard of. Naturally this would be treated extremely seriously.

2) Where I am we had an incident where a train managed to depart a platform with a set of double doors fully open. What happened was some kids had operated a butterfly cock just as the train had started moving, meanwhile the driver was departing slowly and coasting out of the platform, I think due to restrictive signal aspects ahead. It was a new driver who was going particularly slowly and didn't notice the interlock lamp had gone out, the section concerned was on a falling gradient therefore the train was able to pick up speed and reach the next station. We did a complete reconstruction, operating/driving the train exactly as was done, and it was possible to re-create the scenario. On the type of rolling stock concerned the interlock was/is connected to the traction system but not to the brakes.

3) If the interlock has been cut out on the car concerned because the doors were unable to be closed, this is the only way to get the train moving. In this case the train would be out of service and measures would be taken to prevent people boarding through the doors.

Without wishing to speculate, this is a good post with plausible scenarios for how this type of event may occur. That said, in such a scenario as 3 on a 455 you would often require the Traction Interlock Switch to be activated, from my experience, rather than just something on a single car (though there are MCBs to be considered for door fault-finding in each coach, too).

I am aware of an incident on SWT recently with a 455, as it was leaving a station a set of doors on the non-platform side opened by themselves. This broke the interlock and the crew brought the train to a stand, but still a potentially dangerous incident and it could appear that the train left the station with a set of doors open.

Sounds like the crew did well, and as required, and I am sure the circumstances in that case could at least be clarified to any concerned passengers in the vicinity.

How does the interlock circuit and/or hazard light detect if the doors are closed properly?

On Southern 455s, the interlock circuit should relate to all the doors other than those in the cab with the active Modified Door Key Switch (used to activate the door controls). The BIL lamp on the side of the coach should relate to whether or not the doors are detected as closed on that coach only. Thus the BIL lamps should extinguish as the doors close on each coach, and then interlock should be gained. This should be done by electrical system effectively detecting that there is a continuous circuit of locked doors around the train.

Of course a guard could react quicker and get to the problem coach quicker if the passcom was pulled.

The train should stop if any passcom is pulled on a 455 but not having a conductor does impact performance and also access to any rear unit on a Southern formation (remembering that Southern conductors, where provided, have to travel in the rear unit of an 8 coach 455, and that Southern 455s don't have gangways of any sort between units).

Even if we did have fable guards on the 455s, how would they react quicker if units are physically seperae like on the 455 fleet?. Don't fall into the trap of assuming the guard can be at all points in a train at the same time. They cannot and it's foolish to suggest, as you ahve, other wise.

Potentially, because then you would have one member of staff per unit, rather than one between two (plus it is much quicker for a conductor to shut down their cab than it is for a driver to shut down theirs, so investigations can begin more quickly).

Somebody else stating the obvious!

Whether the passcom should be used immediately or alert staff at the next station would depend on location and circumstances.

If the passenger doors were open in transit, it would almost alway be best to use any passcom not in the same vestibule. A rare exception might be if this was realised just as the train was approaching the next stop, for which the brakes were already being applied.

Once drove a 455 that could take power without interlock. I discovered it after realising that one of the relays can't have been working (you get a distinctive CLICK when you gain interlock on a 455 aswell as a blue interlock light). I was empties at the time.

The fault was so rare they had to stripe the 455 down in places to look at all the wires. The fault was attributed to a short circuit in the "door key switch" panel.

I think I heard about that one! Fortunately it's much more common to find interlock has been achieved but the blue light has broken. Those DKSs are quite sturdy stuff so it's a bit concerning if it's misinterpreting which doors need to be interlocked! Presumably the short circuit may have got the local door exception muddled with the whole train.

 

[455refurb]

.....

 

[DarloRich]

Somebody else stating the obvious!

Whether the passcom should be used immediately or alert staff at the next station would depend on location and circumstances.

well it clearly isnt obvious if people are talking about shutting the doors on the move!

 

[Francis]

Any film or documentary about Indian railways can give you lots of ideas about open doors.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A door test would have been carried out by a driver when prepping the unit.

Southern conductors would not normally carry out door tests on 455s.

Sadly it was my experience on Northern, where of course all passenger services have guards, that at least some drivers did not know how to carry out a door test correctly. To an extent this may come from a training culture that says, in essence, that the driver is responsible for everything below the floor and the guard for everything above it except the cabs/equipment cabinets. I was also aware that some traincrew, both guards and drivers, considered the pre-service door test to be something of a nuisance and under-valued its significance to passenger safety. The numbers were likely very small but it always bothered me hearing talk which demonstrated such an attitude. Given the sheer number of times that doors have to operate during a normal day it would make sense to ensure that such tests are always carried out when specified by diagrams and done to the correct standard. Perhaps more management effort is required.

 

[Class377/5]

That's a sweeping statement. Not all stock can move with doors open up to 3mph, indeed on a 455 an active door release should bring it to a stand (as an example, a handful of drivers on DOO routes still release doors fractionally before the train is stopped, and you will find that doing this will lead to a brake application). The "3mph" idea, strictly speaking 5km/h on most newer stock (consult line-of-route manual where applicable), usually applies to the timing for full release of the door locking after an emergency egress application.

Its not a sweeping statement but one of fact about the subject at hand.

 

[55003]

Should have been investigated by RAIB under this . Strangely it hasn't!
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1992/schedule/1/paragraph/9/made

 

[4069]

That requirement is for notifiication to RAIB. The only mandatory investigations are where there has been death or multiple serious injuries.

 

[BestWestern]

So what you're saying is that a DOO 455 is no less safer than a DOO 455 with a Guard. Hmmmm.

A Guard performing the 'train safety check' on the platform is looking more for people trapped in or obstructing doors, as well as any hazards in the peripheral area (people running towards the train, etc). Part of the disptach process of course includes observing the doors close and hazard lights extinguish, but as long as that happens and all doors are visibly clear of obstruction, it would be perfectly acceptable to deem that the train is safe to depart. The risk of a door, with no obvious obstruction, failing to close yet not keeping the hazard light lit, is tiny. The other hazards constitute by far the lion's share of the risk the Guard is looking out for.

 

[Class377/5]

Should have been investigated by RAIB under this . Strangely it hasn't!
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1992/schedule/1/paragraph/9/made

Why investigate when the cause is known?

 

[Domh245]

Why investigate when the cause is known?

Is it the exact cause that is know, or are all of the contributory causes known as well? But it ought to be investigated as that is what the rules say:

9. An accident or incident which under slightly different conditions might have led to a death, serious injury or extensive damage to rolling stock, the infrastructure or the environment.

(my bold)

 

[Class377/5]

Is it the exact cause that is know, or are all of the contributory causes known as well? But it ought to be investigated as that is what the rules say:


(my bold)

Known.

 

[WatcherZero]

RAIB chosen not to investigate because cause is known. Driver released brakes before closing doors and train rolled a carriage length before halting.

 

[Deepgreen]

According to the BBC news web site, Southern has described the event as being "unusually rare" - so their corporate illiteracy extends beyond just their information provision and complaints responses! It also calls the same staff role a "conductor" and "guard" in the same sentence.

 

[tsr]

RAIB chosen not to investigate because cause is known. Driver released brakes before closing doors and train rolled a carriage length before halting.

Ah, so "left Reedham" was a bit of an exaggeration (first post) then! Departing with the doors open is very, very different to rolling forwards or backwards in the platform. Also not necessarily part of dispatch, though if it happened that the driver made a conscious effort to release the brakes at departure time, that could in theory (and not wishing to speculate) point to errors made with their sequencing of events in the dispatch procedure.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

RAIB chosen not to investigate because cause is known. Driver released brakes before closing doors and train rolled a carriage length before halting.

Do modern units have the brakes linked into the interlock circuit to prevent the brakes being released if the doors are open?

 

[aleggatta]

Do modern units have the brakes linked into the interlock circuit to prevent the brakes being released if the doors are open?

377's don't, and as far as I am aware anything older than that you would generally classify as not being linked... but the 387s do have an emergency brake application linked to door interlock (this was the reason for the 387/2 387/1 and 377 recovery from LBG on the initial introduction of the /2s AIUI)

 

[t_star2001uk]

Ah, so "left Reedham" was a bit of an exaggeration (first post) then! Departing with the doors open is very, very different to rolling forwards or backwards in the platform. Also not necessarily part of dispatch, though if it happened that the driver made a conscious effort to release the brakes at departure time, that could in theory (and not wishing to speculate) point to errors made with their sequencing of events in the dispatch procedure.

But for journalistic purposes rolling forward is not as newsworthy as leaving with the doors open....