Croydon Tram Crash

[rebmcr]

There had been other trams before this one although I'm not sure why that is relevant?

The first vehicle of the day has to deal with a whole night's buildup of railhead contaminants (ice, leaf mulch, etc), rather than just the accumulation since the preceding vehicle.

 

[richw]

I dont see why the driver was arrested when as far as i am aware there is no indication that it was his fault? It doesnt seem right to make arrests when so little information is known. Also was this the first tram of the day or were there trams earlier than this?

The police and people on the scene will know a lot more than us being made available to us the public.
The police will probably know things like speed already- the trams have data recorders, a breathalyser test the outcome of which is instant.
These are examples the police would know and are not what's happened.

 

[berneyarms]

There's been a tram crash. Some people have died. Can I suggest that you take any issues concerning the BBC off to a more suitable forum.

RIP to all concerned.

Not sure why you're picking my post out - I actually only replied to others.

But of course, RIP to the people who have lost their lives, and a speedy recovery to anyone injured - it is a tragic accident.

 

[Taunton]

Does this curve have a check rail?

 

[D1009]

I can't help thinking that a heavy rail accident involving overturned coaches and similar loss of life would have attracted far greater media coverage, US election or no election.

Does anyone know whether there is any kind of driver monitoring, OTMR equivalent installed on Croydon trams?

 

[transmanche]

This is notable as being the first major light rail accident, and also the first fatal one, since we started opening second generation tramways in 1992.

It may be the first time that a passenger on board a (second generation) tram has been killed, but it is not the first fatal incident connected with the Tramlink network.

• As noted above, Andrjez Karcz was killed in 2008 when a bus he was a passenger on hit a tram in Croydon. The bus driver was sentenced to four years in prison for causing death by dangerous driving.
• At least one cyclist has been killed when he slipped whilst cycling over the tram tracks on a poorly designed crossing and was then hit by a bus.
• There have been at least four other fatalities involving pedestrians or cyclists being hit by trams.

 

[Deepgreen]

Very tragic for all involved and my best wishes go to those affected. I do not however see the point in making it national news other than scaring the hell out of people in to not using public transport and putting them in cars instead, and then putting every car crash on the national headlines. You could have a separate news paper just to report them all.

It is national news because it is a rare event that has caused significant loss of life and injury. Many of the more severe road accidents also make national news - motorway 'pile-ups' in fog for example. The very rarity of this crash means that I can't see anyone being put off using public transport in favour of the much-safer car! On the basis of your point, just about every news item should be reported only in the area of its occurrence!
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Does this curve have a check rail?

Not that I can see in any of the photos I've seen. None of the four tracks that have very sharp curves here appear to have check rails.

 

[fowler9]

It is national news because it is a rare event that has caused significant loss of life and injury. Many of the more severe road accidents also make national news - motorway 'pile-ups' in fog for example. The very rarity of this crash means that I can't see anyone being put off using public transport in favour of the much-safer car! On the basis of your point, just about every news item should be reported only in the area of its occurrence!

You see mate that wasn't the basis of my point. My sympathy goes to those affected and I am sure following a thorough investigation it will never happen again under the same circumstances.

 

[tony6499]

Daily Mail reporting that according to passengers 'the driver fell asleep at the wheel', I'm not sure how accurate that statement is

 

[rogger13]

Unless you are on site how on earth can you comment about why or why they weren't arrested?

The authorities don't release everything to the media, and rightly so.

There are also standard procedures they follow following any serious incident.

A screening breath test will take place after any safety critical incident.

 

[bengley]

I am certain that recommendations by the RAIB will include the fitting of some kind of overspeed sensor - it's very surprising that there is nothing fitted especially with what I would classify as a particularly high risk curve (at the end of a straight after a tunnel)

 

[rogger13]

correct.

 

[Simon11]

BBC news

Croydon tram: Five dead and 50 injured after derailment

 

[neonison]

RAIB alert confirms direction etc.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

 

[Zoidberg]

The RAIB has given some factual information at

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

RAIB is investigating a fatal accident that occurred near to Sandilands Junction on the London Tramlink system. At around 06:10 hrs on Wednesday 9 November 2016, a tram derailed on the approach to the junction, and turned onto its side. The accident resulted in a number of fatalities and serious injuries (confirmed numbers will be included as an update in due course).

The tram was operating an ‘inbound’ service from New Addington to Wimbledon via Croydon town centre. Sandilands Junction is the point where inbound trams from the Beckenham Junction/Elmers End and New Addington routes converge, shortly before they arrive at Sandilands tram stop (to the east of Croydon town centre). Trams approaching from the New Addington direction have to negotiate a sharp, left-hand curve with a speed limit of 20 km/h (12 mph) before reaching the junction. The derailment occurred on the curve and initial indications suggest that the tram was travelling at a significantly higher speed than is permitted.

...

Edit: Snap, neoison!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I am certain that recommendations by the RAIB will include the fitting of some kind of overspeed sensor - it's very surprising that there is nothing fitted especially with what I would classify as a particularly high risk curve (at the end of a straight after a tunnel)

Do any UK tramways have automatic overspeed intervention? The Manchester Metrolink doesn't either

 

[transmanche]

Does anyone know whether there is any kind of driver monitoring, OTMR equivalent installed on Croydon trams?

Yes. This RAIB report into an earlier fatal collision notes that the trams are equipped with forward-facing CCTV and an On-Tram Data Recorder which "records a number of parameters including the vehicle speed, and the driver’s operation of the power and brake controls and the warning bell and horn".
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The RAIB has given some factual information at

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

Specifically of note is that:

... initial indications suggest that the tram was travelling at significantly higher speed than is permitted.

(Incidentally, this quote from the RAIB was also reported by the BBC at 16:42).

Hopefully, they will quickly be able to ascertain the reason for the excess speed.

 

[Antman]

I am certain that recommendations by the RAIB will include the fitting of some kind of overspeed sensor - it's very surprising that there is nothing fitted especially with what I would classify as a particularly high risk curve (at the end of a straight after a tunnel)

All the times I've travelled that stretch of line and I had automatically assumed that some sort of tripcock (or whatever the correct terminology is?) was in place that would apply the brakes if the tram hadn't reduced speed sufficiently?
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Yes. This RAIB report into an earlier fatal collision notes that the trams are equipped with forward-facing CCTV and an On-Tram Data Recorder which "records a number of parameters including the vehicle speed, and the driver’s operation of the power and brake controls and the warning bell and horn".
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Specifically of note is that:


Hopefully, they will quickly be able to ascertain the reason for the excess speed.

Almost certainly poor rail conditions?
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Not sure why you're picking my post out - I actually only replied to others.

But of course, RIP to the people who have lost their lives, and a speedy recovery to anyone injured - it is a tragic accident.

Neither do I, I don't think you've said anything inappropriate.
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Daily Mail reporting that according to passengers 'the driver fell asleep at the wheel', I'm not sure how accurate that statement is

There are also reports on social media that the driver had suffered some sort of medical problem, anyway it'll all come out later.

 

[bnm]

Can I suggest that you take any issues concerning the BBC off to a more suitable forum.

Who resigned and made you moderator?

I think it is perfectly valid to criticise the UK broadcast media's woeful coverage of this story as it broke. Instead concentrating on a result across the pond that wasn't going to change - repeating everything every 15 minutes.

 

[Simon11]

At this moment in time considering the number of people that have passed away in this tragic incident, can we just focus on the incident, the families and the latest developments in this story.

 

[transmanche]

I think it is perfectly valid to criticise the UK broadcast media's woeful coverage of this story as it broke. Instead concentrating on a result across the pond that wasn't going to change - repeating everything every 15 minutes.

As noted above, it was well covered by the broadcast media - particularly so when it became clear (five hours after the incident) that fatalities were involved.

The fact it may not have been covered by TV programmes covering the US Election results is another matter.

 

[Antman]

Who resigned and made you moderator?

I think it is perfectly valid to criticise the UK broadcast media's woeful coverage of this story as it broke. Instead concentrating on a result across the pond that wasn't going to change - repeating everything every 15 minutes.

But looking at the postings on here, a rail forum, it seems that more people are interested in the result across the pond so what do you really expect?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

To be honest, having the media endlessly speculate and show images of a fatal crash is far from pleasant, particularly for families of those involved. This minimal coverage is the only blessing on a dark day.

 

[Antman]

To be honest, having the media endlessly speculate and show images of a fatal crash is far from pleasant, particularly for families of those involved. This minimal coverage is the only blessing on a dark day.

I think you've hit the nail on the head!

 

[bb21]

Can we refrain from speculation please? It is neither necessary nor helpful.

 

[Robertj21a]

Who resigned and made you moderator?

I think it is perfectly valid to criticise the UK broadcast media's woeful coverage of this story as it broke. Instead concentrating on a result across the pond that wasn't going to change - repeating everything every 15 minutes.

So do I think it's valid to criticise the BBC - but that doesn't mean that this thread - about a tram accident and resultant deaths/injuries - is the correct place for it.

 

[Bungle965]

More information about how fast the tram was travelling, this from Nigel Harris from RAIL.

Very rapid RAIB conclusion that fatal Croydon tram was travelling significantly in excess of 12mph limit on sharp left hand curve.

I would also like to send my own condolences to all those involved in today's tragic events.
Sam

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

[QueensCurve]

More information about how fast the tram was travelling.

This has just had a brief mention on Radio 4's PM Prog.

 

[amcluesent]

Surely the 'dead man's handle' is there to stop such events when a driver 'blacks out' as some media sources are reporting?

 

[AlterEgo]

Awful. It makes you wonder how five people can be killed and others to lose limbs. It all looks rather innocuous from the pictures. One wonders about the crash worthiness of those vehicles.
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Surely the 'dead man's handle' is there to stop such events when a driver 'blacks out'?

Not in a tram, which is a light rail vehicle operated on sight using a simple signalling system.