Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Carlisle]

STILL waiting for you to detail all the strike action taken by ASLEF in recent times.

ATW a few months ago for starters, plus so many on the tube I've lost count

 

[Dave1987]

Really,? Wasn't the Scotrail deal in practice just management conceding to 98% of the unions demands in return for a quiet life, but yes I suppose it's one of the options to consider on Southern .

Well considering that the northern end of the country is far more centre left - left wing and the current government only got into power by winning some very marginal seats from Labour and Lib Dems in the north and now the 'Northern Powerhouse' idea has been put on the back burner since the hard line right wing MPs got into the government minister positions I highly doubt the government will win the next GE in 2020 if it tries to quash union concerns in the north like it has done in south.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW a few months ago for starters, plus so many on the tube I've lost count

They had a single, one day strike. That is it. Before that East Midlands drivers had a strike many many years ago when the company tried to force drivers to leave the Railway Pensions scheme to go onto a company pensions scheme. You make it sound like ASLEF are striking at the drop of a hat every time there is an 'R' in the month!!

 

[Astradyne]

No if the grade was kept it would be decent pay. But the whole point is is that because they are not guaranteed to be on every train the grade can be axed very very easily in the future. And that is why the RMT (and ASLEF to a certain extent) are seeking for the OBS to be compulsory so the grade cannot be quietly axed in the future and there will always be a second member of staff to assist the driver in emergencies and assist passengers at unmanned stations.

I don't seriously see how any guarantees beyond 2021 can be given ... no guarantees to be the same TOC or same government. So if you could guarantee all these variables, they may be able to give you guarantees. Any guarantees given will be worthless if either change.

So over to you to sort out the franchise renewal and general election.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't seriously see how any guarantees beyond 2021 can be given ... no guarantees to be the same TOC or same government. So if you could guarantee all these variables, they may be able to give you guarantees. Any guarantees given will be worthless if either change.

So over to you to sort out the franchise renewal and general election.

If conditions state that a member of staff is needed for the service to run then they cannot be axed otherwise the service doesn't run. Just like the Gat Ex hosts were ditched because they weren't needed for the operation of the service so they could be axed easily. And I'm now hopeful that we only have to put up with the current government until 2020 which going by the current state of things looks likely.

 

[ainsworth74]

They had a single, one day strike. That is it. Before that East Midlands drivers had a strike many many years ago when the company tried to force drivers to leave the Railway Pensions scheme to go onto a company pensions scheme. You make it sound like ASLEF are striking at the drop of a hat every time there is an 'R' in the month!!

I think there's been one or two days in Northern/TPE land but that's over like the last five or six years.

 

[Robertj21a]

And I'm now hopeful that we only have to put up with the current government until 2020 which going by the current state of things looks likely.

Interesting, though off-topic (again). Has someone suddenly formed a new political party ? - or has that lost-cause party finally got rid of Corbyn ?

 

[Astradyne]

If conditions state that a member of staff is needed for the service to run then they cannot be axed otherwise the service doesn't run. Just like the Gat Ex hosts were ditched because they weren't needed for the operation of the service so they could be axed easily. And I'm now hopeful that we only have to put up with the current government until 2020 which going by the current state of things looks likely.

OK .... let say you get your guarantee and Stagecoach, Arriva, MTL or whoever win the next franchise and say they want to get rid OBSs? What then? We have another 18 month dispute? Do you really want to drive the British Railway system into ruin?

I would rather have a 99.9999% safe system that is reliable, than one that is 100% safe and unreliable. An unreliable railway will push people to use road transport that is far less safe and environmentally worse.

We need to get the issue resolved once and for all .... not be in a position to go through this all again

 

[bb21]

Well I for one appreciate all the work that goes on behind the scenes even if I think train planning are smoking some dodgy stuff in their offices at times

They must be seeing that I ran into our lot in the office on Saturday, three of them!

 

[infobleep]

OK .... let say you get your guarantee and Stagecoach, Arriva, MTL or whoever win the next franchise and say they want to get rid OBSs? What then? We have another 18 month dispute? Do you really want to drive the British Railway system into ruin?

I would rather have a 99.9999% safe system that is reliable, than one that is 100% safe and unreliable. An unreliable railway will push people to use road transport that is far less safe and environmentally worse.

We need to get the issue resolved once and for all .... not be in a position to go through this all again

Is that one where the TOC doesn't employ enough drivers so has to keep cancellating services?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't seriously see how any guarantees beyond 2021 can be given ... no guarantees to be the same TOC or same government. So if you could guarantee all these variables, they may be able to give you guarantees. Any guarantees given will be worthless if either change.

So over to you to sort out the franchise renewal and general election.

Simplest way to provide such a guarantee is not to bother with DOO. So trains have to have guards in order to comply with the rulebook for as long as the rulebook is still deemed to be a good idea. Simples!

That's not to say the role can't be "modernised", as indeed it has been already over the years, but by keeping it safety-critical you keep it in existence to the benefit of passengers rather than shareholders or political idealogues. As things stand it's a political argument above all else regardless of the spin coming from Grayling and his cohorts.

 

[Astradyne]

Is that one where the TOC doesn't employ enough drivers so has to keep cancellating services?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

It is far more reliable than one where the staff are consistently on strike!

 

[Dave1987]

OK .... let say you get your guarantee and Stagecoach, Arriva, MTL or whoever win the next franchise and say they want to get rid OBSs? What then? We have another 18 month dispute? Do you really want to drive the British Railway system into ruin?

I would rather have a 99.9999% safe system that is reliable, than one that is 100% safe and unreliable. An unreliable railway will push people to use road transport that is far less safe and environmentally worse.

We need to get the issue resolved once and for all .... not be in a position to go through this all again

Well you do what they do right now with the ITT. Just like you have the minimum service requirement for stations, you stipulate a minimum staffing requirement for trains and minimum standard of training for those on board staff. If a particular company doesn't want to comply with the franchise spec you politely tell them not to bother bidding. Unions are happy, passengers and particularly disabled passengers are happy. Only if you want to destroy the unions would you do what they are currently doing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They must be seeing that I ran into our lot in the office on Saturday, three of them!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Simplest way to provide such a guarantee is not to bother with DOO. So trains have to have guards in order to comply with the rulebook for as long as the rulebook is still deemed to be a good idea. Simples!

That's not to say the role can't be "modernised", as indeed it has been already over the years, but by keeping it safety-critical you keep it in existence to the benefit of passengers rather than shareholders or political idealogues. As things stand it's a political argument above all else regardless of the spin coming from Grayling and his cohorts.

Precisely!

 

[Astradyne]

Simplest way to provide such a guarantee is not to bother with DOO. So trains have to have guards in order to comply with the rulebook for as long as the rulebook is still deemed to be a good idea. Simples!

That's not to say the role can't be "modernised", as indeed it has been already over the years, but by keeping it safety-critical you keep it in existence to the benefit of passengers rather than shareholders or political idealogues. As things stand it's a political argument above all else regardless of the spin coming from Grayling and his cohorts.

Unfortunately it is too late to say don't bother with DDO .... 30% of the network already is.

If it was 0% ... then that maybe a different story.

So if 30% of the system is already DDO, which rulebook says a train must have a guard? Because 30% of the network would never operate if that was the rulebook.

 

[highdyke]

Really? I don't look down on anyone who is paid less than I am. I have worked damn hard to get into the position I am in and made huge sacrifices in my life to accomplish that. Anyone who works hard deserves decent wages and decent conditions. The government is very keen say about how many people are in work in this country, but shy away from the fact that thousands of people in work are classed as in poverty, and that is disgraceful.

Good luck to you, put you have no right or basis implying I don't give a monkeys about people less well off. Most people are free to join unions if they wish, but you are hardly promoting them as reasonable bodies interested in solving problems. Instead this dogma will cause more harm than good as it did in the 1970s.

There are many companies out there that could pay their staff a decent wage but it would mean that their profit figures wouldn't look as good and their top bosses wouldn't get their bonuses at the end of the year. I'm glad you acknowledge that there are very good unions out there. In my experience ASLEF do not take action lightly. And usually there will have been lots and lots of goings on behind the scenes trying to sort out disputes before you get to the industrial action stage.

I said I don't support those companies and people should join Unions. However, I'm against the Unions running the railways and subverting democracy.

I believe I have commented elsewhere on these forums how much I dispare of seeing any job losses, yet others see job losses as "progress". Shows what a shambolic country we live in.

Nope, that's how the economy works. Blacksmiths, Inn keepers, Canal workers and owners all lost their jobs when the railways appeared. It's sad, but things move on and people must move beyond protest to develop skills for the future.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Unfortunately it is too late to say don't bother with DDO .... 30% of the network already is.

If it was 0% ... then that maybe a different story.

So if 30% of the system is already DDO, which rulebook says a train must have a guard? Because 30% of the network would never operate if that was the rulebook.

Any passenger train not run as DOO, and therefore meeting certain criteria, has to have a guard. I have already made the point, in various posts in different threads, that the massive rise in passenger numbers since DOO was first introduced means there really needs to be a top-to-bottom review of DOO to confirm where it can be operated safely and where it can't. And I have no doubt any such review would open the door to DOO on routes currently without it but would also ban it from some routes where it exists today. Unfortunately nobody in a position of influence is interested as it would mean backing down from an idealogical position. And that goes for both sides of the argument.

 

[HowardGWR]

What "howler"? Do you think he should have said 'fomenting'? "Fermenting" is completely appropriate in the context of his comment (a definition : 'a state of confusion, change, and lack of order or fighting'.).

No, of course it isn't, unless he was insulting the union leaders, by suggesting they are confused and stupid. On the other hand..........

 

[Astradyne]

Any passenger train not run as DOO, and therefore meeting certain criteria, has to have a guard. I have already made the point, in various posts in different threads, that the massive rise in passenger numbers since DOO was first introduced means there really needs to be a top-to-bottom review of DOO to confirm where it can be operated safely and where it can't. And I have no doubt any such review would open the door to DOO on routes currently without it but would also ban it from some routes where it exists today. Unfortunately nobody in a position of influence is interested as it would mean backing down from an idealogical position. And that goes for both sides of the argument.

OK there must be a precedent and process put in place for getting services/routes approved for DDO.

If Southern have fulfilled their requirements and RMT and ASLEF burying their head in the sand saying no more DDO at any cost .... it is the unions trying to change an established process, rather than the train company introducing more change.

DDO is already established on some of the busiest commuter trains in the country .... so sorry ... it does not wash with me that quieter routes can not cope.

If there were set routes that are unsuitable .... then fine .... the current blanket no more is just wrong

 

[infobleep]

It is far more reliable than one where the staff are consistently on strike!

Which isn't saying much compared to South West Trains where they are not cons entry cancelling services due to shortage gwent or drivers and every service has a guard.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[highdyke]

DDO is already established on some of the busiest commuter trains in the country .... so sorry ... it does not wash with me that quieter routes can not cope.

I believe the ORR told ASELF today that DOO is safe based on all the available evidence, and they've inspected everything at Southern and given it all a clean bill of health.

 

[LateThanNever]

Any passenger train not run as DOO, and therefore meeting certain criteria, has to have a guard. I have already made the point, in various posts in different threads, that the massive rise in passenger numbers since DOO was first introduced means there really needs to be a top-to-bottom review of DOO to confirm where it can be operated safely and where it can't. And I have no doubt any such review would open the door to DOO on routes currently without it but would also ban it from some routes where it exists today. Unfortunately nobody in a position of influence is interested as it would mean backing down from an idealogical position. And that goes for both sides of the argument.

Agreed some DOO trains are long indeed and, never mind the safety, a 'customer facing representative' makes for a much better travelling environment for the passenger. And that is also how trains win custom.

 

[Astradyne]

Which isn't saying much compared to South West Trains where they are not cons entry cancelling services due to shortage gwent or drivers and every service has a guard.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Not sure what that post is trying to prove, but fact is more services are presently getting cancelled by industrial action than any other single reason. If Southern are as bad as you are making out .... the Unions are doing a damn fine job of disguising it and giving someone else to blame.

 

[infobleep]

Not sure what that post is trying to prove, but fact is more services are presently getting cancelled by industrial action than any other single reason. If Southern are as bad as you are making out .... the Unions are doing a damn fine job of disguising it and giving someone else to blame.

I'm pointing out no industrial action is not occurring on South West Trains. They don't need to.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Astradyne]

Agreed some DOO trains are long indeed and, never mind the safety, a 'customer facing representative' makes for a much better travelling environment for the passenger. And that is also how trains win custom.

Take it you have never used peak Southern DOO trains. They are rammed. They certainly have no issue attracting custom, and seriously don't need any extra. A guard would not make the experience of having your head shoved into someone else's armpit any more pleasant.

 

[DT611]

It is far more reliable than one where the staff are consistently on strike!

Actually it isn't. In fact it could be argued it's even less reliable as when they're is a strike people know what won't be running.

Unfortunately it is too late to say don't bother with DDO .... 30% of the network already is.

Yet 70% isn't, so it's not to late to say don't bother with it, in fact it would be easy to say don't bother with DOO.
Oh and it's "DOO" not " DDO" . Once again, it's DOO, not DDO.

If it was 0% ... then that maybe a different story.

and if it was over 50% then it would be to late to say don't bother with DOO. But as it's only 30%, they're is still time to get rid.

I'm against the Unions running the railways and subverting democracy.

The unions aren't running the railways and subverting democracy.

 

[highdyke]

The unions aren't running the railways and subverting democracy.

Really, so why don't employees do as they are bloody told then? The democratically elected government doesn't believe in nationalisation. What gives you the right to try and force the issue?

 

[Astradyne]

I'm pointing out no industrial action is occurring on South West Trains. They don't need to.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Is the next SWT contract going to be a management contract .... need to introduce DOO in preparation for Crossrail 2
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone heard the Labour mayor say his DOO Overground services are unsafe? Is he rushing to introduce guards? No to both.

So both parties support DOO

 

[bb21]

Is the next SWT contract going to be a management contract .... need to introduce DOO in preparation for Crossrail 2

No.

And Crossrail 2 is still a pipe dream.

From a reliable source I understand that relationship between the mayor and TfL are not good atm, due to the former making unrealistic promises for political gains, and the latter lacking the resources to implement many of the mayor's pledges.

 

[Astradyne]

No.

##

OK, thanks for the correction

 

[DT611]

DDO is already established on some of the busiest commuter trains in the country .... so sorry ... it does not wash with me that quieter routes can not cope.

It actually doesn't matter if it does or doesn't wash with you whether routes can cope with or not cope with "DOO" not DDO, doo. It matters to those working on the railway who will be working in the environment and will know the realities of either method.

If there were set routes that are unsuitable .... then fine .... the current blanket no more is just wrong

Why is it wrong. DOO not DDO is an old method from a railway believed to be in decline looking to penny pinch wherever possible.

Not sure what that post is trying to prove, but fact is more services are presently getting cancelled by industrial action than any other single reason.

Probably not much more then before hand when the staff shortage was the 1 problem. His point has proven that services being canceled was rife before the strikes even began, i should think.

If Southern are as bad as you are making out .... the Unions are doing a damn fine job of disguising it and giving someone else to blame.

that's because someone else is to blame.

 

[Robertj21a]

I realise that we are all just going round in circles for about the 100th time........but can anyone just confirm when did 12-coach Thameslink trains actually start operating without a guard ?

Thank you.