Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[The Planner]

Whereas if it was Shooter coming along with some refurbed loco and stock there would be an explosion in the share price of Kleenex and he would be a god.

 

[HLE]

Whereas if it was Shooter coming along with some refurbed loco and stock there would be an explosion in the share price of Kleenex and he would be a god.

One here wouldn't want to see that!

Despite being critical at the start, the 230 is a solid idea and if the info is correct it wasn't the engine that caused the fire.

I really do hope Vivarail bounce back from the last fortnight or so.

 

[najaB]

Despite being critical at the start, the 230 is a solid idea and if the info is correct it wasn't the engine that caused the fire.

I missed that, what info?

 

[RPM]

Whereas if it was Shooter coming along with some refurbed loco and stock there would be an explosion in the share price of Kleenex and he would be a god.

Oh, for a like button!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a shame the fire seems to have caused damage beyond the engine module. Otherwise this could have been turned into an opportunity to show just how quickly the unit could have a module swap and be back in service.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Oh, for a like button!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a shame the fire seems to have caused damage beyond the engine module. Otherwise this could have been turned into an opportunity to show just how quickly the unit could have a module swap and be back in service.

Had it done some structural damage?

 

[HLE]

I missed that, what info?

Read it on another forum a few days back. Fuel leak on/below the protective shield was the reason given in the post.

 

[RPM]

Had it done some structural damage?

I'm only surmising, but if the damage was confined to the engine module I can't see why the unit would not be quickly returned to service. Unless they don't have any completed spare engine rafts, but that would seem rather rash.

 

[D365]

I'm only surmising, but if the damage was confined to the engine module I can't see why the unit would not be quickly returned to service. Unless they don't have any completed spare engine rafts, but that would seem rather rash.

Don't worry about it, SpacePhoenix has a tendency to jump to the conclusion that any kind of unit involved in an incident has had terminal structural damage...

 

[ac6000cw]

I really do hope Vivarail bounce back from the last fortnight or so.

Me too - and I agree with Neil Williams that the level of hostility towards them from some forum members is just silly.

Vivarail is risking private investors (not taxpayers) money in the hope of getting a commercial return by selling/leasing a fairly innovative product (at least by the sometimes desperately conservative standards of the rail industry) - what's not to like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Me too - and I agree with Neil Williams that the level of hostility towards them from some forum members is just silly.

Vivarail is risking private investors (not taxpayers) money in the hope of getting a commercial return by selling/leasing a fairly innovative product (at least by the sometimes desperately conservative standards of the rail industry) - what's not to like?

Quite, and if the project does fail they will lose their money - they made the choice to invest, thus is life.

It's not as if any of us (unless anyone here has invested) are going to lose anything either way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't worry about it, SpacePhoenix has a tendency to jump to the conclusion that any kind of unit involved in an incident has had terminal structural damage...

Only so he can rebuild it as some sort of Frankenstein 442 hybrid...

 

[Bantamzen]

Me too - and I agree with Neil Williams that the level of hostility towards them from some forum members is just silly.

Vivarail is risking private investors (not taxpayers) money in the hope of getting a commercial return by selling/leasing a fairly innovative product (at least by the sometimes desperately conservative standards of the rail industry) - what's not to like?

Or we could flip that around, and ask why some forum members are so keen on the project when frankly the potential buyers are not? The franchise that some members were keen to see take on the 230s obviously took a look at them and said "Thanks, but no thanks" and promptly headed off to Spain to order all new units. If the 230 is such a good concept and so wonderfully cheap, why would the successful bidder for Northern franchise have turned it's back on it when it potentially could have been the deal breaker? They obviously did not have confidence in it, and seemingly this is the case with others.

Let me just float a theory here, perhaps, just perhaps they looked at the 230 project and saw an ex-subsurface unit with transit engines strapped underneath and a few cosmetic tinkerings to the body-shell / interior and thought for a unit with potentially half the lifespan & lower top speed of a new unit, they are too bloody expensive? Perhaps they just saw the project for what it really is, a sticking plaster solution for a bandage requiring problem? It's not about hating the 230s or VR, it's just simply that they are for the most part a square peg in a round hole. Even if some TOC did take a punt for the ever decreasing number of branches suggested by members, within one franchise renewal the holders would almost certainly be having to look for a replacement solution.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Vivarail is risking private investors (not taxpayers) money in the hope of getting a commercial return

Ask yourself this question. In which country is the private equity company based who are the finance providers to Vivarail.

 

[fredk]

I'm starting to wonder why Vivarail didn't get their hands on the class 508s that were scrapped by London Overground on the North London Line. Surely they would have provided a better base to add diesel engines to and create something which would essentially be a modernised class 150. I may be completely wrong though.

 

[The Ham]

Or we could flip that around, and ask why some forum members are so keen on the project when frankly the potential buyers are not? The franchise that some members were keen to see take on the 230s obviously took a look at them and said "Thanks, but no thanks" and promptly headed off to Spain to order all new units. If the 230 is such a good concept and so wonderfully cheap, why would the successful bidder for Northern franchise have turned it's back on it when it potentially could have been the deal breaker? They obviously did not have confidence in it, and seemingly this is the case with others.

Let me just float a theory here, perhaps, just perhaps they looked at the 230 project and saw an ex-subsurface unit with transit engines strapped underneath and a few cosmetic tinkerings to the body-shell / interior and thought for a unit with potentially half the lifespan & lower top speed of a new unit, they are too bloody expensive? Perhaps they just saw the project for what it really is, a sticking plaster solution for a bandage requiring problem? It's not about hating the 230s or VR, it's just simply that they are for the most part a square peg in a round hole. Even if some TOC did take a punt for the ever decreasing number of branches suggested by members, within one franchise renewal the holders would almost certainly be having to look for a replacement solution.

I would suggest that most on here are of the view let's see how it goes, but think that it could (if used in the right locations) provide a useful short term solution.

There of course shades along the spectrum, and so there are some who are very favorable towards them. Whilst the are those who are very opposed to them. I would guess that of those with relatively strong views, that those who are opposed have greater representation on here than those who are in favour.

There is a big difference between wanting the trail unit a good chance to prove whether it is viable or not and those who want it crash and burn never to rise again.

 

[Clip]

Or we could flip that around, and ask why some forum members are so keen on the project when frankly the potential buyers are not? The franchise that some members were keen to see take on the 230s obviously took a look at them and said "Thanks, but no thanks" and promptly headed off to Spain to order all new units. If the 230 is such a good concept and so wonderfully cheap, why would the successful bidder for Northern franchise have turned it's back on it when it potentially could have been the deal breaker? They obviously did not have confidence in it, and seemingly this is the case with others.

.

If you had kept up with the thread rather than jump in with your disdain for them every so often then you wouldve know that the ITT for the new Northern franchise specifically stated no refurbished tube stock or something similar which is why they went to CAF for their new trains.

Sorry to inject a little bit of truth in your half baked rant but someone had to.

 

[Clip]

Ask yourself this question. In which country is the private equity company based who are the finance providers to Vivarail.

Does it matter? In the grand scheme of things why does the location of the private equity company who are the providers of said finance to Vivarail matter?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Its not hate just my view of the project, and the hope that other franchises will also reject it for better solutions.

Northern only went for new DMUs because Patrick McLoughlin overruled his officials when they said there was no business case for them.
Relatively speaking, GA (and EMT and LM) is by comparison a "rich" franchise.
We have yet to see how that plays out in "poor" franchises like Wales & Borders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern only went for new DMUs because Patrick McLoughlin overruled his officials when they said there was no business case for them.
Relatively speaking, GA (and EMT and LM) is by comparison a "rich" franchise.
We have yet to see how that plays out in "poor" franchises like Wales & Borders.

It is about time that Northern threw off the role of the poor man's franchise that was like a millstone around the neck of that franchise when the previous "no growth" franchise was launched with the implied "Let them eat cake" belief that saw the Class 142 Pacer fleet running eventually on many routes that they were never intended to be running on.

It is a new franchise with new aims and is deserving of new rolling stock to meet those new aims.

 

[A0]

I'm starting to wonder why Vivarail didn't get their hands on the class 508s that were scrapped by London Overground on the North London Line. Surely they would have provided a better base to add diesel engines to and create something which would essentially be a modernised class 150. I may be completely wrong though.

Fewer of them and in far worse condition one would assume.

Various forums have spoken of the corrosion issues with the PEP units.

Presumably the D78's are in better overall condition?

 

[D365]

It is about time that Northern threw off the role of the poor man's franchise that was like a millstone around the neck of that franchise when the previous "no growth" franchise was launched with the implied "Let them eat cake" belief that saw the Class 142 Pacer fleet running eventually on many routes that they were never intended to be running on.

At the time at which the current franchise was put out to tender, it was agreed that the Northern region would require significant stock renewal in order to carry out the full replacement of (at a bare minimum) the Class 142 fleet. However what was not know was the kind of investment that the new franchise was going to make into brand-new rolling stock.

There was the condition placed on bidders that at least 120 brand new self-powered carriages must be included in their plans, however until Arriva's winning bid was revealed even that wasn't considered to be enough.

 

[glbotu]

Fewer of them and in far worse condition one would assume.

Various forums have spoken of the corrosion issues with the PEP units.

Presumably the D78's are in better overall condition?

PEP stock has steel underframes, whereas I believe D-Stock is all Aluminium, thus having much fewer corrosion issues.

 

[Bantamzen]

If you had kept up with the thread rather than jump in with your disdain for them every so often then you wouldve know that the ITT for the new Northern franchise specifically stated no refurbished tube stock or something similar which is why they went to CAF for their new trains.

Sorry to inject a little bit of truth in your half baked rant but someone had to.

"BASIL!!!!!"

<Slaps wrist>

OK, now that I've been suitably told off, I'm sorry if my thoughts upset you. I was under the impression from this very thread that if a bidder really wanted to include 230s as part of their bid there would have been enough wriggle room for them to do so. Certainly some people still seem to be under the impression that Arriva could still make use of them and have the blessing of DfT. I can only hope you intend to chastise them too!!

Arriva don't seem to have made much of a fuss about them being ruled out, and quite frankly I'm glad. Instead of the re-engineered, 30+ year old D-stock trundling around the network here until they fell over and needed replacing, we'll be getting new stock from a proven supplier that for the most part will serve us for the next 4 decades. And I'm fairly certain that some people's assertions here that folk wouldn't care what trains rolled in, be they 230s, 15xs, or 195/331s, just so long as they could shoehorn in, falls way short of the mark. People do take notice of the trains that appear in front of them, and they would certainly notice a train that quite frankly looks exactly what it is, an old train. People (well at least some) aren't as daft as some enthusiasts seem to think, especially when any attempt to pass off 230s as "new" the way that VR were trying to would have been splashed across the media. Why do you suppose DfT tried to make it difficult (if not impossible, which you cannot rule out) for the successful bidder to include them?

Sadly it seems that for some, not being in favour of the project is considered to be some kind a hate crime, worthy of being lamented and chastised. Personally I can't help but wonder if those keen to see 230s in operation are either slightly too nostalgic, and can't bear the thought of them being scrapped, or are just happy to see one unsuitable and cheap solution being replaced for another. Not that it matters to me, I'm used to being a voice of dissent in work and in life. I call things for what they are. The 230s are a cheap(ish) mish-mash that has no long term future, and were always just a punt by a businessman. I can't help wondering if someone other than Mr Shooter, in particular someone with no rail industry experience, had been leading this project if there would have been even a fraction of the support. Other mode-change propositions have largely been dismissed here, with perhaps the exception of the D319 (and before you ask I have my doubts about that too), so quite why the 230s attracted as much support as they did is beyond this humble grunt…..

Now that is more of a rant!!

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm starting to wonder why Vivarail didn't get their hands on the class 508s that were scrapped by London Overground on the North London Line. Surely they would have provided a better base to add diesel engines to and create something which would essentially be a modernised class 150. I may be completely wrong though.

I'd suggest that the vast majority of the 508 units had already been scrapped some years before Vivarail even had their initial thoughts. (Can anyone supply dates?) There'd be little point in developing the project until there was a large enough pool of suitable vehicles to play with.

 

[Philip Elliott]

508s scrapped in 2013, Vivarail formed in 2012.

 

[CosherB]

It is about time that Northern threw off the role of the poor man's franchise that was like a millstone around the neck of that franchise when the previous "no growth" franchise was launched with the implied "Let them eat cake" belief that saw the Class 142 Pacer fleet running eventually on many routes that they were never intended to be running on.

It is a new franchise with new aims and is deserving of new rolling stock to meet those new aims.

Eh?

 

[47802]

Northern only went for new DMUs because Patrick McLoughlin overruled his officials when they said there was no business case for them.
Relatively speaking, GA (and EMT and LM) is by comparison a "rich" franchise.
We have yet to see how that plays out in "poor" franchises like Wales & Borders.

Well yes we know that, and maybe the myth that new DMU would be difficult to build that meet the latest emission reg's played a part along with the idea that no would finance new DMU's due to impending electrification which of course is now very much slowed down.

But the question's you might ask does the D train actually represent good value? or is shooter trying to make a killing? and if the assertion that there was no business case to replace Pacers had stood, would the D train have been taken up or would the epacer have been regarded as offering better value and in particular better flexibility in terms of higher top speed and its ability to work with 15x stock.

With regard to EMT and Anglia yes they could be described 'rich' franchises by comparison but only because they have lucrative intercity routes as part of their franchise, as far as their regional routes are concerned its unlikely they are financially better performers than many Northern Routes, and are we saying that Northern should have inferior rolling stock on its regional routes because it doesn't have lucrative routes as part of its franchise. Well the answer to that should be No, and to a large degree the government seems to have taken that on board with the latest franchise.

 

[superkev]

Although personally I have a few reservations about the use of Ford transit engines I sincerely hope the project does not get abandoned.
So nice to see someone brave enough to take on the "cant do" people and red tape and try something different.
Difficult to see why the approvals process takes literally years. I think I'd have given up a while ago.
Better to try and fail than not at all.
K

 

[Clip]

"BASIL!!!!!"

<Slaps wrist>

OK, now that I've been suitably told off, I'm sorry if my thoughts upset you. I was under the impression from this very thread that if a bidder really wanted to include 230s as part of their bid there would have been enough wriggle room for them to do so. Certainly some people still seem to be under the impression that Arriva could still make use of them and have the blessing of DfT. I can only hope you intend to chastise them too!!

Arriva don't seem to have made much of a fuss about them being ruled out, and quite frankly I'm glad. Instead of the re-engineered, 30+ year old D-stock trundling around the network here until they fell over and needed replacing, we'll be getting new stock from a proven supplier that for the most part will serve us for the next 4 decades. And I'm fairly certain that some people's assertions here that folk wouldn't care what trains rolled in, be they 230s, 15xs, or 195/331s, just so long as they could shoehorn in, falls way short of the mark. People do take notice of the trains that appear in front of them, and they would certainly notice a train that quite frankly looks exactly what it is, an old train. People (well at least some) aren't as daft as some enthusiasts seem to think, especially when any attempt to pass off 230s as "new" the way that VR were trying to would have been splashed across the media. Why do you suppose DfT tried to make it difficult (if not impossible, which you cannot rule out) for the successful bidder to include them?

Sadly it seems that for some, not being in favour of the project is considered to be some kind a hate crime, worthy of being lamented and chastised. Personally I can't help but wonder if those keen to see 230s in operation are either slightly too nostalgic, and can't bear the thought of them being scrapped, or are just happy to see one unsuitable and cheap solution being replaced for another. Not that it matters to me, I'm used to being a voice of dissent in work and in life. I call things for what they are. The 230s are a cheap(ish) mish-mash that has no long term future, and were always just a punt by a businessman. I can't help wondering if someone other than Mr Shooter, in particular someone with no rail industry experience, had been leading this project if there would have been even a fraction of the support. Other mode-change propositions have largely been dismissed here, with perhaps the exception of the D319 (and before you ask I have my doubts about that too), so quite why the 230s attracted as much support as they did is beyond this humble grunt…..

Now that is more of a rant!!

I do love a good rant and that was canny good.

What everyone overlooked right from the start of their project though was that if they had been given support by the Govt as a stop gap measure on certain routes this wouldve released other units to strengthen other services - something that people couldnt get their head round it seems.

I asked many times if people wanted trains and extra capacity now or wait 3 or 4 years of rammed packed commuting till they got new ones?

And do you know who didnt answer? Just about everyone because the sensible answer was 'Capacity now'.

Thats what the whole project was about in my eyes and I struggle to understand why anyone fed up with and moaning about the lack of available trains to transport them to work would be happy to wait nearly 4 years for new trains - thats just too unbelievable to be true.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does it matter? In the grand scheme of things why does the location of the private equity company who are the providers of said finance to Vivarail matter?

The fact that the posting that I was responding to made mention of the fact that the taxpayers were not involved but the "shareholders" which may have led some people not so well versed in this project as your good self to have implied British shareholders.

What "grand scheme of things" do you attach to such a project of this, which anyone with any business acumen would view on the progress and conduct of it so far. The project should only be viewed as any rail unit manufacturing project would be viewed by those charged with the management of same and totally and utterly devoid of any meaningless enthusiast euphoria.