Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Amaroussi]

Hi, is it safe to assume that Class 230 is done for? I do not know about its future amid the cancellation of the trial.

 

[Clip]

The fact that the posting that I was responding to made mention of the fact that the taxpayers were not involved but the "shareholders" which may have led some people not so well versed in this project as your good self to have implied British shareholders.

What "grand scheme of things" do you attach to such a project of this, which anyone with any business acumen would view on the progress and conduct of it so far. The project should only be viewed as any rail unit manufacturing project would be viewed by those charged with the management of same and totally and utterly devoid of any meaningless enthusiast euphoria.

You really need to stop using so many words and convoluted sentences Paul. The project seems to have come to a halt so yes you can be smug and now say 'I told you so' with a big stupid grip on your face.

Not sure why you aren't so eloquent on the 319 thread which is doing the same with mere 20-30 year old trains which are already running in the north west.

Shame for all involved at vivarail and I hope this isn't the end of what is a good project.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do love a good rant and that was canny good.

What everyone overlooked right from the start of their project though was that if they had been given support by the Govt as a stop gap measure on certain routes this wouldve released other units to strengthen other services - something that people couldnt get their head round it seems.

I asked many times if people wanted trains and extra capacity now or wait 3 or 4 years of rammed packed commuting till they got new ones?

And do you know who didnt answer? Just about everyone because the sensible answer was 'Capacity now'.

Thats what the whole project was about in my eyes and I struggle to understand why anyone fed up with and moaning about the lack of available trains to transport them to work would be happy to wait nearly 4 years for new trains - thats just too unbelievable to be true.

One slight problem with the "Capacity Now' with the 230s. Can you guess what it is.....?

(Hint the project was supposed to start to deliver in the summer of last year....)

But seriously. Who for a minute believes that if say Northern had been allowed, and if they actually wanted to procure 230s they would have been a temporary fill? I am absolutely certain that had that happened, Northern punters would have been riding around in the blessed things 20 years from now, and we would still be having the Pacer, or in this case 230 replacement debate. And I'll wager you'd agree with that.

And this is the crux of the matter, nobody wanted to say it but most knew the 230 "temporary fill until new DMUs" would become the medium to long term fix. That was why I viewed the project with suspicion, it smelt like a cheap n nasty fix, it looked like a cheap n nasty fix, it was a cheap n nasty fix. Heck VR couldn't even bring themselves to disguise it's retro 70s/80s looking cab with the front end they had renders made up to woo the enthusiasts. Thankfully us Northern punters will not have to put up with the blessed things. Hopefully other punters across the country will also have the pleasure of never having one rock up, and instead more investment be made in bringing new units and improving the existing units to provide the needed extra capacity.

Of course, if some feel so strongly about the old dears, perhaps they might like to club together and buy a few for heritage lines?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi, is it safe to assume that Class 230 is done for? I do not know about its future amid the cancellation of the trial.

Had the trial been held, would a guilty verdict be given....

 

[HSTEd]

Thankfully us Northern punters will not have to put up with the blessed things. Hopefully other punters across the country will also have the pleasure of never having one rock up, and instead more investment be made in bringing new units and improving the existing units to provide the needed extra capacity.

I hope you prefer your nice view of empty track where the Class 230 would have been, when nothing turns up because the expense of 'modern' stock puts the cosh on any service increases.

 

[Bantamzen]

I hope you prefer your nice view of empty track where the Class 230 would have been, when nothing turns up because the expense of 'modern' stock puts the cosh on any service increases.

Would you like to list any routes that are going to suffer because they were earmarked for coverage by 230s? Because to my understanding there aren't any yet, only LM had committed to a limited trial and they have now understandably pulled away.

There isn't going to be any empty track where 230s would have been, because nobody save a handful on here is planning to use the units. The UK needs a long term solution to it's DMU shortfalls, and companies are looking to deal with that by ordering between them a mixture of diesel and bi-modes to cover the potential shortfalls. The 230 was a punt when it was unclear what was happening with franchises like Northern. But now it is clear there is simply no more need for them, the window for VR to make a decent profit by selling enough has passed. I'm pretty certain that this has been discussed at length at VRHQ, and I'm sure they are keeping a keen eye on the current scrap value of the D-Stock idling away in their sidings. So unless something quite extraordinary happens and VR go from an as yet unproven concept to being able to knock out dozens of 230s within a small timeframe, as well as deal with whatever issues 230001 had, or VR get interest from an overseas company then it's time to let go.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I hope you prefer your nice view of empty track where the Class 230 would have been, when nothing turns up because the expense of 'modern' stock puts the cosh on any service increases.

Has the actual cost differential between the real price of a Class 230 unit when fitted out similar to that of a modern new unit not been explained enough on this thread when all the Vivarail add-ons have been costed...:roll:

You make mention in your posting of a "nice view of empty track where the Class 230 would have been" in relation to any service increases, but I put it to you that is exactly the current status quo that Vivarail have achieved in reality at this point on the Coventry to Nuneaton line, where they had a 12-month short contract to provide a service.

It is actual units on the track that provide a service for rail passengers....not aspirational flights of fancy.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Had the trial been held, would a guilty verdict be given....

Ha, Ha, very droll, ( and if found guilty, what would the punishment have been-life term on pacers?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ha, Ha, very droll, ( and if found guilty, what would the punishment have been-life term on pacers?)

I do believe that particular sentence in respect of the Class 142 version is coming to its end, with no time deducted for good behaviour, with whilst not heavenly intervention, at least Angel Trains (a partly divine name) have said they will not extend the punishment caused by these monstrosities to the travelling public in their area in which they are to be found.

 

[glbotu]

I think the real death-knell for these was the fact they weren't as cheap as had first been anticipated. It was 2/3s the cost of a new DMU with "no" modifications, ie: as tube stock with a diesel engine. For something with 1/3 of the design life, it just doesn't make financial sense. I'll be interested to see how cheap (or not) the 319 FLEX is going to be, relative to a 195.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the real death-knell for these was the fact they weren't as cheap as had first been anticipated. It was 2/3s the cost of a new DMU with "no" modifications, ie: as tube stock with a diesel engine. For something with 1/3 of the design life, it just doesn't make financial sense.

This is one of the key points about the D230, even the basic setup is really quite expensive for what it is and it's expected lifespan. And if a TOC wants it to be able to be operated on anything other than slow, low capacity branch lines then the costs gets closer and closer to that of a new unit.

I'll be interested to see how cheap (or not) the 319 FLEX is going to be, relative to a 195.

There is rumour over on the WNXX forum that the cost is expected to be high, maybe considerably higher than a regular 319. That could be a D319 killer too. I suppose the one advantage Porterbrook have over VivaRail is that they might consider absorbing some of the costs if TOCs balk at the prices, something that VR are not in a position to do. Even so, if the D319 is too expensive then the argument for more new units becomes ever more compelling, especially given the large orders in place already making it fairly easy to request bolt-on orders, and given that the manufacturers in question can mostly offer bi-modes if needed.

 

[47802]

This is one of the key points about the D230, even the basic setup is really quite expensive for what it is and it's expected lifespan. And if a TOC wants it to be able to be operated on anything other than slow, low capacity branch lines then the costs gets closer and closer to that of a new unit.



There is rumour over on the WNXX forum that the cost is expected to be high, maybe considerably higher than a regular 319. That could be a D319 killer too. I suppose the one advantage Porterbrook have over VivaRail is that they might consider absorbing some of the costs if TOCs balk at the prices, something that VR are not in a position to do. Even so, if the D319 is too expensive then the argument for more new units becomes ever more compelling, especially given the large orders in place already making it fairly easy to request bolt-on orders, and given that the manufacturers in question can mostly offer bi-modes if needed.

Indeed but I think the 319 flex has a specific task to take over some partially electrified routes, I don't think its intended as a DMU replacement for purely non electrified routes as some people seem to think.

Clearly it doesn't make a lot of sense for Bi-modes to work purely Diesel routes, ok it does like that will happen with the Anglia Bi-modes but then Anglia are probably going to gain advantages in only having to operate one type of Regional Train.

 

[QueensCurve]

Wait till we get the first fire on an IEP...

I remember the first A320 crashing into a forest on test, and thinking that was the end of the line for it (and maybe Airbus).
However, the crash was quickly put down to "pilot error" and the A32x series has had vast orders since.
It is now arguably the most successful aircraft of its type.

The A320 Crash was, as I recall, at the Mulhouse* air show in 1986. The slow low flypast above the runway was a set piece demonstration to show confidence in the fly by wire system.

The pilot could end the maneuvre by pulling back on the sidestick. Unfortunately it took 7 seconds for the engines to spool up and give full power. He didn't do it early enough and hit the trees.

* I am told by someone from Basel that the local pronunciation is "mul-ease-eh"

 

[Amaroussi]

Had the trial been held, would a guilty verdict be given....

If the project is dead, then I will refer to Class 230 as the Dodo-Train - I was going to use Al-D-Train, but that was taken to refer to the failed Fyra project (Aldi-Trein).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the project is dead, then I will refer to Class 230 as the Dodo-Train - I was going to use Al-D-Train, but that was taken to refer to the failed Fyra project (Aldi-Trein).

The project is not (yet) dead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The project is not (yet) dead.

If one had to describe the project in the same terminology used by a consultant in a hospital when asked what the condition of the patient was, what wording might well be used?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If one had to describe the project in the same terminology used by a consultant in a hospital when asked what the condition of the patient was, what wording might well be used?

In critical condition, perhaps? Certainly not dead yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In critical condition, perhaps? Certainly not dead yet.

Perhaps you are waiting for the miracle known as "Lazarus Syndrome" to occur...

 

[Amaroussi]

The project is not (yet) dead.

Hi, I clarify that it is still an "if".

In critical condition, perhaps? Certainly not dead yet.

Or, more like, the Dorm or Dormant-Train if we see a long period of delay.

 

[Mordac]

The project is not (yet) dead.

I'd say this train is passed on. It has ceased to be.

 

[route:oxford]

If one had to describe the project in the same terminology used by a consultant in a hospital when asked what the condition of the patient was, what wording might well be used?

Nothing terminal.

 

[FordFocus]

If one had to describe the project in the same terminology used by a consultant in a hospital when asked what the condition of the patient was, what wording might well be used?

A broken leg, recovery expected but never be able to play football again.

 

[Marklund]

That could be a D319 killer too.

D319 has long gone.
D319 by Peter, on Flickr

 

[The Growl]

For reasons unknown the very idea of these units, which seem an interesting and potentially useful idea to me, seems to inspire loathing in some quarters.

Probably one of the bunch that talk about new plastic trains and how old trains are the best ever. The 'Back in my day' lot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably one of the bunch that talk about new plastic trains and how old trains are the best ever. The 'Back in my day' lot.

These days they *are* pretty old trains

 

[Michael.Y]

If one had to describe the project in the same terminology used by a consultant in a hospital when asked what the condition of the patient was, what wording might well be used?

Coma.

 

[WatcherZero]

Update from RTM on the preliminary accident investigation report.

Generator Set 4 on which the fire occurred had the largest accumulated mileage previous to a zero mile engine having been installed due to a previous engine failure though it had done some work as an auxiliary providing hotel power and shunting in the days before the fire. The test run objective was to ascertain the reliability of Genset 4 after the engine replacement and it was the first time operating at full power since.

The fire damage to the genset was 'significant' and they have been unable to ascertain the cause so it has been sent away for further forensic examination. A final report is expected to be completed by the end of January.


A photo from Rail Express;

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a mess.

I do love the "if in doubt, have a cup of tea" approach clearly visible on the photo, though

 

[ac6000cw]

I do love the "if in doubt, have a cup of tea" approach clearly visible on the photo, though

The tea/coffee mug is a very valuable, time-proven engineering tool

Also handy for a quick check sanity check of your infra-red thermometer readings...(is it really that hot? )

 

[M7R]

Love the cup.. "Keep calm and CE mark"... not sure they will be CE marking that gen set any time soon,