Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Bromley boy]

If the DOO cameras are of poor quality, is a partial answer not simply to replace them with better quality ones? Including infra-red for use at night? You can do a very good quality camera in a small form factor these days.

Is there any type of camera that can withstand direct sunlight shining into the lens and still deliver a useable image good enough to reliably dispatch trains?

 

[Deepgreen]

Taking not much space, and therefore would easily fit in the housings on such stock.

Example: A digital SLR is not small form-factor (it is not designed primarily to be small, it is designed primarily for functionality). The camera in an iPhone is (it is designed for the functionality that can be achieved with the primary aim of being small).

In English, then, that would be 'small'.

 

[bramling]

It becomes more and more a problem with passengers thinking the warning lights and sounds are an invitation to jump into the train ignoring the already closing doors, instead of stepping back and waiting for the next train.

This is an area where the TOCs could do a lot more to encourage passengers to comply. Sure you're never going to stop people trying to board when doors are closing, however IMO there definitely should be a culture where it's frowned upon. Nowadays people not only hold doors open or deliberately board when the doors are closing, but then have the nerve to put in a complaint if they get caught in the doors. There should at least be an expectation of being issued with some kind of fine if observed by BTP, ejected from station, etc.

 

[Mojo]

Is there any type of camera that can withstand direct sunlight shining into the lens and still deliver a useable image good enough to reliably dispatch trains?

Yes; have platform mounted cameras that are positioned so that they are not going to have direct sunlight shining in the lens.

 

[Dave1987]

Yes; have platform mounted cameras that are positioned so that they are not going to have direct sunlight shining in the lens.

Platform mounted cameras and monitors are vastly superior to bodyside cameras.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes; have platform mounted cameras that are positioned so that they are not going to have direct sunlight shining in the lens.

Unfortunately those are also susceptible to "wash out" from sunlight at certain times of the year.

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately those are also susceptible to "wash out" from sunlight at certain times of the year.

If the monitors were on the train rather than on the platform, and adjusted seasonally, then this is extremely unlikely. The location of the sun in the sky is predictable and can be managed accordingly.
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Platform mounted cameras and monitors are vastly superior to bodyside cameras.

Agreed on the first point, but surely the "gold standard" and one which delivers the best visibility is surely platform-mounted cameras feeding the pictures to in-cab CCTV monitors.

 

[XDM]

Is there any type of camera that can withstand direct sunlight shining into the lens and still deliver a useable image good enough to reliably dispatch trains?

There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

 

[Bromley boy]

There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

It's not "very rare" at this time of year in clear weather when the sun is low in the sky all day.

Yes the dispatcher solution works when they are provided. The problem is expanding that solution network wide. Multiply the problem by a few hundred stations, factor in constantly changing sunlight angles and locally variable weather conditions, and it quickly becomes unworkable.

 

[Legzr1]

There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

Good news and nice spin - Aslef offered to suspend action for new talks to take place.

 

[physics34]

Good news and nice spin - Aslef offered to suspend action for new talks to take place.

yeh lol ridiculous spin. Typical troll and wind up merchant.

 

[maniacmartin]

Agreed on the first point, but surely the "gold standard" and one which delivers the best visibility is surely platform-mounted cameras feeding the pictures to in-cab CCTV monitors.

If London Underground can do this, why can't National Rail? Too many cooks and not enough collaboration?

 

[BestWestern]

yeh lol ridiculous spin. Typical troll and wind up merchant.

You have to accept it as comedy, and chuckle accordingly

 

[Deepgreen]

There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

How have Southern shifted? Agreeing to talks is not a shift if the intentions remain unchanged - do you know if they have?
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If London Underground can do this, why can't National Rail? Too many cooks and not enough collaboration?

To be fair, LU has had a few problems with OPO (as we tend to call the regime) cameras and sunlight. There is no solution for absolutely direct sunlight - nothing can provide a clear image (including the human eye) in that circumstance.

 

[BestWestern]

There is no solution for absolutely direct sunlight - nothing can provide a clear image (including the human eye) in that circumstance.

The human eye has the endless advantage of being infinitely and instantly adjustable, of course.

 

[Domh245]

Agreed on the first point, but surely the "gold standard" and one which delivers the best visibility is surely platform-mounted cameras feeding the pictures to in-cab CCTV monitors.

If the in cab monitor shuts off shortly after moving, then there won't be *much* difference in terms of how long the driver is able to observe it for, slightly in favour of the in cab system. However, I would expect that using a platform based monitor is more reliable than having to transmit the images from the platform to the train (or at least it'd be easier to transmit a high quality, high framerate video to a monitor than to a train)

If London Underground can do this, why can't National Rail? Too many cooks and not enough collaboration?

They are on the GWML and GEML, although it's only because the crossrail units cannot have bodyside cameras. I guess that in other cases, it's because they'd be responsible for the transmission system from platform to train (if not the cameras themselves) - so why bother with that and the risk that you'll get heavy delay related fines if they go wrong when you can just leave it to the TOCs.

 

[alastair]

ASLEF strikes suspended:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38651177

 

[Bromley boy]

If the monitors were on the train rather than on the platform, and adjusted seasonally, then this is extremely unlikely. The location of the sun in the sky is predictable and can be managed accordingly.
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This would eliminate the washout on the monitors themselves but you're still left with the problem of sunlight shining into the lens greying out the image.

I appreciate the path of sunlight is predictable but making a "one size fits all" adjustment to a body side camera or monitor that will then work at all points in all conditions all over an entire network is surely impossible.

I suspect the problem can be reduced somewhat but not altogether eliminated.

 

[redbutton]

How have Southern shifted? Agreeing to talks is not a shift if the intentions remain unchanged - do you know if they have?

The BBC have reported that GTR have indicated that they are prepared for the talks to be "intensive" and both sides have agreed that they will be moderated jointly by the Group HR Director of Abellio and the General Secretary of the TUC.

It remains to be seen if anything new comes of this, but I doubt ASLEF would have agreed to suspend action if it were the same old wibble.

 

[infobleep]

There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

Why didn't they shift their position slightly much earlier, so that the previous stirkes didn't happen? Might have caused less pain for the traveling public. Especially if the dispute gets resolved.

If it does get resolved, I've love to know what things were concerned on either side to resolve it and why they couldn't be concerned earlier.

 

[mrbluelips]

Unfortunately those are also susceptible to "wash out" from sunlight at certain times of the year.

Or, just have a camera at each end of the train (like Manchester's Metrolink) pointing down the train, so effectively looking at each other. If the sun is shining in one, it's unlikely to be shining in the other...

 

[Deepgreen]

Why didn't they shift their position slightly much earlier, so that the previous stirkes didn't happen? Might have caused less pain for the traveling public. Especially if the dispute gets resolved.

If it does get resolved, I've love to know what things were concerned on either side to resolve it and why they couldn't be concerned earlier.

That's the nature of stand-offs - not giving in/changing immediately! Painful, but it's how stakes are raised.

 

[infobleep]

Interesting that a Government minister wanted a co-chair. I thought this dispute was between a private company and the unions so it was not their place to get involved or does that policy only apply to Chris Grayling? LOL!
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That's the nature of stand-offs - not giving in/changing immediately! Painful, but it's how stakes are raised.

Which just goes to show the value in striking.

Personally I prefer compromise and discussing rather than raising stakes high and being confrontational. I guess many others don't like this way of working. I'm not having ago at the unions solely here but all sides.

 

[FordFocus]

The BBC have reported that GTR have indicated that they are prepared for the talks to be "intensive" and both sides have agreed that they will be moderated jointly by the Group HR Director of Abellio and the General Secretary of the TUC.

It remains to be seen if anything new comes of this, but I doubt ASLEF would have agreed to suspend action if it were the same old wibble.

This is positive news and a step in the right direction. If a deal is made here then I think the DfT should accept the agreement between GTR and the union and not interfere.
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There isn't. But a calendar & weather forecast will reveal the very rare occasions when this will happen. Then a despatcher can be provided at that location for the few minutes the camera is rendered useless,or the driver can fall back to the look back procedure as in the company rules.
By the way good news for drivers. Southern have shifted their position slightly & talks are on & the strikes suspended.

It's not very rare. There's a set of DOO monitors in my area that is getting constant issues at a certain time of day because the sun is glaring onto all the screens. No fix in sight and no dispatchers available as ticket office staff aren't trained. The TOC won't train them as it means they have to pay for safety critical training, medicals, competency assessments and a probable hike in pay grade.

 

[Legzr1]

Interesting that a Government minister wanted a co-chair. I thought this dispute was between a private company and the government so it was not their place to get involved or does that policy only apply to Chris Grayling? LOL!
.

Aslef GS asked the transport secretary to 'support this new process' - turning up and taking a seat at the table would be a good start.

 

[RichardN]

Agreed on the first point, but surely the "gold standard" and one which delivers the best visibility is surely platform-mounted cameras feeding the pictures to in-cab CCTV monitors.

I would add to that driver switchable between different sets of cameras, both of which provide full PTI coverage but are angled differently so when sunlight interferes with the view from one camera set, the other will work ok. This would also provide some resilience if a a camera fails.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is positive news and a step in the right direction. If a deal is made here then I think the DfT should accept the agreement between GTR and the union and not interfere.
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It's not very rare. There's a set of DOO monitors in my area that is getting constant issues at a certain time of day because the sun is glaring onto all the screens. No fix in sight and no dispatchers available as ticket office staff aren't trained. The TOC won't train them as it means they have to pay for safety critical training, medicals, competency assessments and a probable hike in pay grade.

You surely realise that DfT/HMG are already right in the thick of it and 'interfering' for all their worth? GTR are being instructed and financially supported by HMG. Unless HMG loses the will to continue the fight (and why would they, having come this far?), I don't see any substantial change in approach. For the purposes of this discussion there is no difference between GTR and HMG. HMG can rest easy in the knowledge that, no matter what happens with Southern, the Surrey and Sussex Tory voters will never change their allegiances.

Then, also, what of the RMT's actions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting that a Government minister wanted a co-chair. I thought this dispute was between a private company and the government so it was not their place to get involved or does that policy only apply to Chris Grayling? LOL!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which just goes to show the value in striking.

Personally I prefer compromise and discussing rather than raising stakes high and being confrontational. I guess many others don't like this way of working. I'm not having ago at the unions solely here but all sides.

No, it's between the union(s) and GTR/HMG combined.

 

[infobleep]

Aslef GS asked the transport secretary to 'support this new process' - turning up and taking a seat at the table would be a good start.

But the transport secretary doesn't need to support it, as it's a dispute between a private company and the unions. Lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You surely realise that DfT/HMG are already right in the thick of it and 'interfering' for all their worth? GTR are being instructed and financially supported by HMG. Unless HMG loses the will to continue the fight (and why would they, having come this far?), I don't see any substantial change in approach. For the purposes of this discussion there is no difference between GTR and HMG. HMG can rest easy in the knowledge that, no matter what happens with Southern, the Surrey and Sussex Tory voters will never change their allegiances.

Then, also, what of the RMT's actions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No, it's between the union(s) and GTR/HMG combined.

Well Chris Grayling pulbiclly said something else, such as it was not his place to get involved.

I also amended my post as it should have said unions and not government.

 

[AlterEgo]

The BBC have reported that GTR have indicated that they are prepared for the talks to be "intensive" and both sides have agreed that they will be moderated jointly by the Group HR Director of Abellio and the General Secretary of the TUC.

It remains to be seen if anything new comes of this, but I doubt ASLEF would have agreed to suspend action if it were the same old wibble.

Agreed. Hopefully there's some movement from this new development.

 

[Dave1987]

Agreed on the first point, but surely the "gold standard" and one which delivers the best visibility is surely platform-mounted cameras feeding the pictures to in-cab CCTV monitors.

Platform mounted cameras with a good field of view relaying images to nice big platform clear high definition monitors are the best. They aren't affected so much by changing light conditions and don't suffer with grime and getting covered in moisture. They do pose other limitations but do offer the driver the best possible view of the PTI without getting out of the cab and being in the same position as a guard or platform dispatcher would be.